Long Form Census

[ToadBrother]

Well, it's official. The Long Form Census is back.

Yesterday, an actual real live unscripted uncontrolled press conference, today a return to rational science-based governance.

[Smallc]

I'm not a believer in the evil Harper theory, but I'm very in favour of things like this.

[poochy]

Well, it's official. The Long Form Census is back.

Yesterday, an actual real live unscripted uncontrolled press conference, today a return to rational science-based governance.

Thank goodness, look at how all of our lives changed while it was gone.

[Smallc]

Thank goodness, look at how all of our lives changed while it was gone.

I think what's more important is this - two days in power, two promises kept.

Edited November 5, 2015 by Smallc

[ToadBrother]

Thank goodness, look at how all of our lives changed while it was gone.

It damaged the Federal Government's data capability, and will continue to have an affect on all levels of government and industry for years to come.

But thank you for confirming the Conservatives' incapability of recognizing the importance of science and research.

[poochy]

O and fyi, i've forgotten more about science than you imagined to know.

But of course being that you're a liberal you have all the answers about everything and 10 years where your ideals weren't in charge must therefore have been our version of the dark ages, o better turn on your flashlight, must be getting dark in there.

Edited November 5, 2015 by poochy

[PIK]

Back to big brother watching us again. You people just don't get it, but then if you want the government to hold your hand thru life, then maybe it is a good thing.

[poochy]

It would be nice if liberals could provide the actual tangible changes, not the over blown or invented out of thin air changes, that we should all be able to see in our everyday lives (considering how terrible those changes seem to be) that the conservatives foisted upon us. Having lived through the previous liberal government, the conservative government, and now perhaps the most corrupt provincial government, liberal, in the history of the country, still when i live my day to day life, virtually nothing of major significance has changed. For example, despite the alleged, destruction of our environment, I just went down to this very large lake i live near, and it's not covered with oil.

But yet everything Trudeau will do to, undo the wrongs of the past, will be some great triumph for civilization! Honestly I can't begin to imagine what it would be to occupy the mind that could believe this nonsense, grow up children, grow up. Im sorry if my engineering diploma and science degrees isn't enough in your, no doubt superior liberal mind, to allow me to comment on these issues, but in my opinion, you are absolutely full of it, and you probably know it, or at least for your own sake i sure as hell hope you do

Edited November 5, 2015 by poochy

[Ash74]

In Ontario we just made random carding illegal.

http://www.thestar.com/news/queenspark/2015/11/03/how-ontario-politicians-teamed-up-to-rein-in-police-carding-cohn.html

Meanwhile you now can be charged for NOT doing the long census.

Ain't freedom grand.

[Smallc]

Meanwhile you now can be charged for NOT doing the long census.

And you always could in the past - just not last time.

[cybercoma]

Didnt matter, made no actual difference to the nation, but you go on ahead and see how much further you can get your head up Trudeau's ass.

Says you. Meanwhile, researchers and business alike say something very different. Not only that, but StatsCan themselves identified serious problems early on and those problems will continue into the future, as it's nearly impossible to track trends over time with the blindspot in the data created by the Harper Government. Do you want to reconcile your position that it made no difference whatsoever with what experts have said about the change?

[cybercoma]

Then again, the people who are underrepresented by the loss of the long-form census aren't exactly the demographics that radical conservatives gives a crap about anyway, so I don't exactly expect posters like poochy, PIK, and Ash74 to get it.

More broadly, it has “inhibited research into inequality and identifying winners and losers in economic growth, research into understanding the national problems of the have-nots in the economy, and research into how best to provision local government services.”

Source: http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/politics/cities-footing-the-bill-for-data-gap-after-long-form-census-scrapped/article22695286/

When your ideology demands you believe that the best government services are no government services at all, nevermind the cognitive dissonance about moving to Somalia for that, then what do you are about the long-form census?

[ToadBrother]

It would be nice if liberals could provide the actual tangible changes, not the over blown or invented out of thin air changes, that we should all be able to see in our everyday lives (considering how terrible those changes seem to be) that the conservatives foisted upon us. Having lived through the previous liberal government, the conservative government, and now perhaps the most corrupt provincial government, liberal, in the history of the country, still when i live my day to day life, virtually nothing of major significance has changed. For example, despite the alleged, destruction of our environment, I just went down to this very large lake i live near, and it's not covered with oil.

But yet everything Trudeau will do to, undo the wrongs of the past, will be some great triumph for civilization! Honestly I can't begin to imagine what it would be to occupy the mind that could believe this nonsense, grow up children, grow up. Im sorry if my engineering diploma and science degrees isn't enough in your, no doubt superior liberal mind, to allow me to comment on these issues, but in my opinion, you are absolutely full of it, and you probably know it, or at least for your own sake i sure as hell hope you do

Ah, the Salem Hypothesis in action.

Engineers are not scientists, nor do they have some special insight into societal or political forces.

[ToadBrother]

Says you. Meanwhile, researchers and business alike say something very different. Not only that, but StatsCan themselves identified serious problems early on and those problems will continue into the future, as it's nearly impossible to track trends over time with the blindspot in the data created by the Harper Government. Do you want to reconcile your position that it made no difference whatsoever with what experts have said about the change?

In the Conservative world, and particularly in the Libertarian world, where reality and science say one thing, and ideology says another, ideology always wins. It's why I rather believe that there is a certain subset of Conservatism, and pretty much all Libertarianism, that has more in common with Trotskyism and Marxist-Leninism than with fiscal conservatism and centrism; this belief that ideology is not only an important consideration, but is the only consideration.

Honestly, the modern Conservative view of science is indistinguishable from the way the Soviets viewed science as a branch of state ideology (ie. Lysenkoism).

[Wilber]

Ah, the Salem Hypothesis in action.

Engineers are not scientists, nor do they have some special insight into societal or political forces.

You are right, engineers are not scientists, they are the ones who have to make stuff actually work.

[segnosaur]

Didnt matter, made no actual difference to the nation, but you go on ahead and see how much further you can get your head up Trudeau's ass.

Says you. Meanwhile, researchers and business alike say something very different....

I think the problem is that while there may be people concerned about the loss of accuracy in the census/survey data, the effects aren't necessarily apparent to the average citizen.

Yes, researchers (e.g. historian, anthropologist, etc.) may not like the data problems, but some historian writing a paper about "Number of bathrooms in Canadian households for the past century" is no longer working with valid data, but the question is how does it affect your average Canadian citizen.

As for business people... they have less accurate data to plan with, but with all of the other factors in running a successful company (exchange rates, international economic conditions, etc.) many might feel that whatever additional accuracy that was provided with the long form census wasn't critical. (And it should be pointed out that at least one business group mentioned in your article said that the household survey "still delivers the information needs", so some business types weren't concerned.)

Not that I'm against reestablishing the long-form census data. In fact I think its probably a good thing. Just pointing out why some might not have considered it the catastrophe that others have made it out to be.

Edited November 5, 2015 by segnosaur

[cybercoma]

It's frustrating when the people who use this stuff all the time are saying what a huge problem it is, whilst those who don't use it, don't know what it's use for, and in some cases don't care what it's used for are saying that it should stay gone. They're being obstructionist for no good reason. Though it has no effect on them personally, they're intent keeping valuable information away from people who need it for their work. And to be that opinionated out of sheer ignorance is a huge problem, imho.

[TimG]

Meanwhile you now can be charged for NOT doing the long census.

Ain't freedom grand.

That's not a big problem. They really have no way to know that you are being truthful. Compelling people to do something has never been a good way to ensure quality work. I really don't understand why people think compelled data is more reliable.

[ToadBrother]

That's not a big problem. They really have no way to know that you are being truthful. Compelling people to do something has never been a good way to ensure quality work. I really don't understand why people think compelled data is more reliable.

I really don't understand why non experts seem to believe they know more about specialized fields like statistics and demographics than experts, and why they so quickly reject the statements of experts.

Perhaps you can enlighten me, because, in general, StatsCan's statisticians have repeatedly said the long form census is not only useful but essential, and one would think that they, like statisticians working in any field, know the level of non-compliance and intentional falsification. But hey, you clearly know more than they do, as you do on so many topics on which you will reject experts' views.

[segnosaur]

It's frustrating when the people who use this stuff all the time are saying what a huge problem it is, whilst those who don't use it, don't know what it's use for, and in some cases don't care what it's used for are saying that it should stay gone. They're being obstructionist for no good reason. Though it has no effect on them personally, they're intent keeping valuable information away from people who need it for their work. And to be that opinionated out of sheer ignorance is a huge problem, imho.

Well, the last time I got the long term census it took (I think) half an hour to fill out (Can't remember exactly... it was over a decade ago.). That's time I could have spent doing more important tasks (like plotting world domination, watching Family Guy, etc.) So it did affect me personally.

Perhaps your time isn't valuable, but if we DO value our free time, not wanting to spend that time filling out a census form is a "good reason".

If you're going to force a good portion of the population to give up a significant amount of their free time, it would be nice to know that the information is actually of benefit to the responder in some way. Simply saying "other people need it" may not cut it.

[ToadBrother]

Well, the last time I got the long term census it took (I think) half an hour to fill out (Can't remember exactly... it was over a decade ago.). That's time I could have spent doing more important tasks (like plotting world domination, watching Family Guy, etc.) So it did affect me personally.

Perhaps your time isn't valuable, but if we DO value our free time, not wanting to spend that time filling out a census form is a "good reason".

If you're going to force a good portion of the population to give up a significant amount of their free time, it would be nice to know that the information is actually of benefit to the responder in some way. Simply saying "other people need it" may not cut it.

Because statisticians didn't try to explain multiple times why the Long Form census was important.

https://muse.jhu.edu/login?auth=0&type=summary&url=/journals/canadian_public_policy/v036/36.3.green.pdf

[TimG]

in general, StatsCan's statisticians have repeatedly said the long form census is not only useful but essential, and one would think that they, like statisticians working in any field, know the level of non-compliance and intentional falsification.

I was asking a question. Telling me to trust the wizards because they must know what they are doing is not much of an answer. It is equally likely that they just assume that data is accurate because they have absolutely no way to determine the level of intentional or unintentional errors.

The arguments I have seen has to do with self-selection bias which I agree is a real thing. But is this bias really worse than the bias introduced by including a lot of inaccurate data provided by people who simply want to get a task done?

Edited November 5, 2015 by TimG

[ToadBrother]

I was asking a question. Telling me to trust the wizards because they must know what they are doing is not much of an answer. It is equally likely that they just assume that data is accurate because they have absolutely no way to determine the level of intentional or unintentional errors.

The arguments I have seen has to do with self-selection bias which I agree is a real thing. But is this bias really worse than the bias introduced by including a lot of inaccurate data provided by people who simply want to get a task done?

Translation: You have no actual educated objections, you just sort of knee-jerk reject experts.

Where did you get the idea that statisticians can't working with imperfect data? It really strikes me that you have very little idea what you're talking about, and by and large just view even the most spurious objection to experts' views as being legitimate. So I think it's incumbent upon YOU to say why the statisticians are wrong when they say the Long Form Census is extremely important, as they have on many occasions since the Conservatives' decision to ax it made it clear why it is important.

Do you have any actual experience that you can bring to bear? Or is this just going to be more "hey, I pulled this reason it's useless out of my posterior, so prove me wrong!!!!!"

[TimG]

Where did you get the idea that statisticians can't working with imperfect data?

You are avoiding my point. Statisticians have no magic that tells them exactly how inaccurate the data is because they have way to know what the the "correct" answers are. They can only look for patterns that might suggest fiction but it is still just a guess. Seems to me there is a huge assumption being made that the biases introduced by a voluntary census are actually less than the biases introduced by unmotivated people providing bad data.

I personally don't care if the census is mandatory or not but it is probably cheaper to make it mandatory even if the data is just as unreliable.

Edited November 5, 2015 by TimG

[ToadBrother]

[quote name="ToadBrother" post="1112640" timestamp="1446758746"Where did you get the idea that statisticians can't working with imperfect data?You are avoiding my point. Statisticians have no magic that tells them exactly how inaccurate the data is because they have way to know what the the "correct" answers are. They can only look for patterns that might suggest fiction but it is still just a guess. Seems to me there is a huge assumption being made that the biases introduced by a voluntary census are actually less than the biases introduced by unmotivated people providing bad data.

The words "seems to me" ought to indicate what your view on the matter is worth.