On Guard for Thee Posted October 11, 2015 Report Posted October 11, 2015 And that's the case wight eh vast majority of Christians and Christian organizations, including those who provide reparative therapies. That they care about the people is the reason they offer the help. The faulty assumption within that thought is that the people need to be repaired. The few gay men and women I do know are quite happy and don't feel they need any repairs at all. Quote
dialamah Posted October 11, 2015 Report Posted October 11, 2015 And that's the case wight eh vast majority of Christians and Christian organizations, including those who provide reparative therapies. That they care about the people is the reason they offer the help. It seems to me if they 'cared' about the people, they'd accept them for who they are instead of trying to change them. One of the most heartbreaking stories I ever read was about a gay man who wanted to be a priest. He went through hell for years, trying to deny himself. He put his wife through hell because she knew something was wrong, but not what. When he did finally come out, I imagine his kids were shocked and hurt too. Denying people their sexual orientation isn't 'caring' about them. Quote
Bryan Posted October 11, 2015 Report Posted October 11, 2015 It seems to me if they 'cared' about the people, they'd accept them for who they are instead of trying to change them. They do accept them for who they are. They also are willing to help people who come to them for that help. Quote
Michael Hardner Posted October 11, 2015 Report Posted October 11, 2015 Denying people their sexual orientation isn't 'caring' about them. The Catholic approach doesn't deny people their orientation, it simply demands celibacy in those cases, as it does for unmarried couples. Quote Looks like someone has a new patronizing catch phrase ! Michael Hardner
dialamah Posted October 11, 2015 Report Posted October 11, 2015 They do accept them for who they are. They also are willing to help people who come to them for that help. Given the overwhelming scientific evidence that being gay is NOT a choice, I think the compassionate and supportive thing to do would be to say "Yes, you are gay and that's ok". NOT, "Oh, you're gay? Yes, that is unfortunate. But we can help - try out these unproven conversion therapies; you'll be fine". But yeah, Christians aren't big on scientific evidence if it contradicts their interpretation of the bible. The Catholic approach doesn't deny people their orientation, it simply demands celibacy in those cases, as it does for unmarried couples. Promoting a 'cure' isn't offering support. How is "demanding celibacy" not denying sexuality, whether heterosexual or gay? Anyway, demanding celibacy has been shown to be remarkably unsuccessful. You'd think they'd have noticed by now. Quote
Michael Hardner Posted October 11, 2015 Report Posted October 11, 2015 Promoting a 'cure' isn't offering support. How is "demanding celibacy" not denying sexuality, whether heterosexual or gay? There's no Catholic orthodoxy about 'curing' homosexuals. Demanding Celibacy doesn't deny sexual orientation, it denies individuals to follow their hedonistic desires. Choosing to indulge in any behavior for one's own pleasure is the essence of what constitutes 'sin'. If you condemn their didacticism in this regards, you're condemning religion. Quote Looks like someone has a new patronizing catch phrase ! Michael Hardner
dialamah Posted October 11, 2015 Report Posted October 11, 2015 There's no Catholic orthodoxy about 'curing' homosexuals. Demanding Celibacy doesn't deny sexual orientation, it denies individuals to follow their hedonistic desires. Choosing to indulge in any behavior for one's own pleasure is the essence of what constitutes 'sin'. If you condemn their didacticism in this regards, you're condemning religion. Michael, I do, personally, condemn *religion*, though not people who choose to have faith; for the most part they're decent people. But I think they'd be decent people even without their particular faith. In any case, whether it's Catholic or non-Catholic, I do not see how 'offering cures' to, or demanding celibacy of homosexuals is supportive of their sexual orientation. Quote
Michael Hardner Posted October 11, 2015 Report Posted October 11, 2015 In any case, whether it's Catholic or non-Catholic, I do not see how 'offering cures' to, or demanding celibacy of homosexuals is supportive of their sexual orientation. I agree that offering a 'cure' to something that can't be cured isn't helpful. Religions don't support these sexual orientations. Quote Looks like someone has a new patronizing catch phrase ! Michael Hardner
Bryan Posted October 11, 2015 Report Posted October 11, 2015 In any case, whether it's Catholic or non-Catholic, I do not see how 'offering cures' to, or demanding celibacy of homosexuals is supportive of their sexual orientation. You're conflating two separate things. You can support an individual without endorsing their actions. Quote
dialamah Posted October 11, 2015 Report Posted October 11, 2015 You're conflating two separate things. You can support an individual without endorsing their actions. I agree that you can. I disagree that offering a person a "cure" for a condition that is normal is support. Quote
On Guard for Thee Posted October 11, 2015 Report Posted October 11, 2015 You're conflating two separate things. You can support an individual without endorsing their actions.So if they thumb their nose at this so called therapy, you are happy then to let them go their merry way with your blessing? Quote
Bryan Posted October 11, 2015 Report Posted October 11, 2015 So if they thumb their nose at this so called therapy, you are happy then to let them go their merry way with your blessing? Of course. No one is being told what to do. They are being helped if they come and ASK for help. Quote
dialamah Posted October 11, 2015 Report Posted October 11, 2015 Of course. No one is being told what to do. They are being helped if they come and ASK for help.Well, if a guy goes to a doctor and asks for some help to increase the size of his perfectly average and perfectly working "manhood", and his doctor says "Why, yes, that IS remarkably small" and sends him off to here or here, that would be unhelpful, unsupportive and possibly quite harmful to the man in question. Instead, the doctor should tell the guy he's got a perfectly fine penis, and give him this information. That would be supportive and helpful. Quote
Bryan Posted October 11, 2015 Report Posted October 11, 2015 Well, if a guy goes to a doctor and asks for some help to increase the size of his perfectly average and perfectly working "manhood", and his doctor says "Why, yes, that IS remarkably small" and sends him off to here or here, that would be unhelpful, unsupportive and possibly quite harmful to the man in question. Instead, the doctor should tell the guy he's got a perfectly fine penis, and give him this information. That would be supportive and helpful. You seem to have felt the need to do a lot of research in that department. Quote
dialamah Posted October 11, 2015 Report Posted October 11, 2015 You seem to have felt the need to do a lot of research in that department. Yes, it did take all of five minutes just now. Why, are you trying to suggest something here? If so, please be a little more direct. Quote
Bryan Posted October 11, 2015 Report Posted October 11, 2015 Yes, it did take all of five minutes just now. Why, are you trying to suggest something here? If so, please be a little more direct. I think you've erected a clear enough image. I wouldn't want to be a dick about it. If you're cock-sure that this was a one time thing, I can be content to just let it hang. Quote
dialamah Posted October 11, 2015 Report Posted October 11, 2015 I think you've erected a clear enough image. I wouldn't want to be a dick about it. If you're cock-sure that this was a one time thing, I can be content to just let it hang. I'm female. Quote
dialamah Posted October 11, 2015 Report Posted October 11, 2015 LOL! Got me! Your word play did make me laugh, so it wasn't a total loss. Quote
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