Manifesto backed by prominent NDPers calls for overhaul of economy

[Springer]

Cyber, you're wasting my time.

And you've offered up exactly nothing in return for it.

Clearly, your avatar resembles your attitude towards debate better than you know.

[Canada_First]

Cyber, you're wasting my time.

And you've offered up exactly nothing in return for it.

Clearly, your avatar resembles your attitude towards debate better than you know.

You'll hardly ever see that poster type more than two or three lines.

[hitops]

Another example comes to mind...

In my early days, circa '60s, the ongoing crisis was all about feeding the starving millions in India.

A new strain of wheat had been developed by then, but the Indian government...due to pressures from all the (same) usual suspects of the day...refused to allow it to be utilized in their own agriculture.

Then they finally relented. The almost immediate result was a six-fold increase in crop yields in India, and that nation went on to become a net exporter of its crops.

And mass starvation of its peoples ended.

People who agree with that manifesto never think about things like that. They, I believe, honestly have no idea that what they are proposing would effectively starve millions and impoverish most of the society. In any case, what they suggest, the ideas within it, have been tried on large scale in a number places in the last 70 years, resulting in human catastrophe without exception.

In short, they have no idea what they are talking about. But of course, they are free to talk about it.

[Springer]

A current travesty inflicted upon hundreds of millions in this world has to do with "Golden Rice".

Every year an estimated 5,000,000 children go blind due to a lack of beta-carotene in their diet.

Genetically modifying rice with three genes enables it to produce this precursor to vitamin A.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Golden_rice

Nevertheless, the advancement in health this basic food offers to hundreds of millions, the prevention of unspeakable suffering, and the massive savings in healthcare costs, remains a distant dream due to the efforts of anti-GMO activism. Activists operating from within the security of their own little safe havens here in the west, where such challenges to every day life are beyond the scope of their imagination.

I'm so sick of fad driven activist causes, I can't speak.

Now we're even out to inflict this crap upon our own children with this imbecilic campaign against vaccinations, driven by wannabe do-gooder entertainers or the like, whom have decided they somehow are qualified - presumably because they've gotten rich off of some one hit wonder song or movie - to provide medical council to the world.

Edited September 16, 2015 by Springer

[69cat]

Yeah, it is kind of funny with someone like cyber, you can lay out UNBIASED fact after fact to challenge someones beleifs and hope they will learn and become more educated, and we hope many do. But you still run into those who flip flop around like a fish on a dock on something as simple as whether or not they prefer deficit spending or go so far as to ignore what is written as history as it goes against what they beleive.

[69cat]

We farm here in Sask so i hear enough of the anti gmo talk. We can change our farm practices to meet these demands but the customer needs to pay the higher price because we use the technology to create profit needed to function.

I dont buy into the "we need it to feed the world" pro gmo line.

And so Springer, you are on track with the real issue i have with the anti gmo lobby. Most people in the west can afford to choose what they spend their food budget on. Simply, we have the luxury to pass judgement. There are many people thst could care less if it is gmo or not, if it is gmo and costs less, grows more or has other benefits then they will take it.

Edited September 16, 2015 by 69cat

[WIP]

The radical idea that we should move away from the limited resource of fossil fuels.

The radical idea that we need to aim for sustainability.

The radical idea that energy resources and corporate trade deals should benefit local economies.

So extreme. So communist.

Exactly! The refusal of the rightwing to seriously contemplate the consequences of business-as-usual will leave two stark choices:

Either enforced sharing and redistribution of the resources available or the final war of All against All. That seems to be the direction that modern unprincipled capitalism is pushing us in, and if we don't stop the worshipers of the market, there won't be a human race to worry about in two or three generations anyway!

[WIP]

We farm here in Sask so i hear enough of the anti gmo talk. We can change our farm practices to meet these demands but the customer needs to pay the higher price because we use the technology to create profit needed to function.

I dont buy into the "we need it to feed the world" pro gmo line.

And so Springer, you are on track with the real issue i have with the anti gmo lobby. Most people in the west can afford to choose what they spend their food budget on. Simply, we have the luxury to pass judgement. There are many people thst could care less if it is gmo or not, if it is gmo and costs less, grows more or has other benefits then they will take it.

The lobby to worry about is Pro- GMO/ not anti-GMO, because we all know who the hell has the money to buy the influence on this issue!

Monsanto is creating their monopoly over global food production, not through some blind market forces as your post seems to try to leave the impression, but through the insider leverage to gain patent rights over things (like living organisms) that were never considered to be subject to such ownership in times past. If we say to Monsanto: sure, let the market decide, BUT you get NO rights to control seed distribution through this bullshit patent laws that justify monopolies....YES monopolies! That's what all of you freemarket capitalists are really saying behind the misleading rhetoric!

[WIP]

Did you read my long winded post at all? No.

I clearly stated that i gave credit for Harpers budgets to the opposition and went so far as going to a federal election when he got tired of trying to appease their crap - but that is what happens as a minority government.

Ok, one more time THE OPPOSITION WAS ALWAYS DEMANDING MORE DEFICIT SPENDING

You have, in every way show that you favor a Harper gov in your thought and writing but put out opinions completely against your own beliefs. How do you explain yourself.

it must be lonely out there on the prairie as a wheat farmer defending the conservatives who have destroyed the tools like cooperatives and marketing boards that Canadian farmers used to have to protect themselves from being economically destroyed by glorious capitalist market forces!

[Canada_First]

it must be lonely out there on the prairie as a wheat farmer defending the conservatives who have destroyed the tools like cooperatives and marketing boards that Canadian farmers used to have to protect themselves from being economically destroyed by glorious capitalist market forces!

Why didn't Ontario need protecting?

[WIP]

There are always bumps in the road on the way to the PMship. It's not so much who's behind the Manifesto - and whether they represent a good chunk of the NDP view......it's more that the NDP will be beating a nuanced, tactical retreat. They don't want to alienate this very prominent group of "supporters" but they have to maintain that "moderate" posture. There should be some interesting questions coming Mulcair's way.

Link: http://globalnews.ca/news/2221312/manifesto-backed-by-prominent-ndpers-calls-for-overhaul-of-economy/

I would advise any reader who is not a conservative unthinking drone, to go to the manifesto (notably not linked on this MSM rightwing rag) and read it themselves.

When it comes to the politics....sadly the last truly principled national NDP leader was David Lewis...way back in the early 70's...compare his concerns with the stated bland concerns of Mulcair and today's NDP is badly in need of a Jeremy Corbyn on this side of the Atlantic....to clear out the middling, opportunistic centrists and make the party on the left a REAL party on the left that offers a clear alternative on policy.

Ever since David Lewis bucked advice from his inner circle to accept a Trudeau budget in 1974 and was forced to resign, we've had Broadbent, Jack Layton, and now Mulcair (and of course others in the middle years hardly of note) who make that shift to the center every damn time they smell the opportunity to become Prime Minister! Well, if the primary objective is to just win, what happens the day after? I would argue that the examples of Blair....especially Blair!, but also Clinton and Obama, demonstrate that issues on the left suffer in neglect every damn time some centrist opportunist takes control of the political left.

So, now that Mulcair is pivoting to the middle with his balanced budget/middle class rhetoric, I hope he fails in his main objective...like every other centrist NDP leader has failed when they abandon all principles, and if Justin Trudeau wins, his pivot to the left will mean either put up/or shut up if gets elected. But, we have no way of knowing one way or another, because the Liberal Party is the great chameleon of Canadian politics!

[Springer]

WIP...

I've been listening to capitalists-will-cause-the end-of-the world rants of socialists since junior high, some 45 years ago.

The main ones threatening to crash and burn these days are countries that have been economically and financially run into the dirt by socialism.

...which, no doubt, in your mind is still all the fault of nasty capitalists that won't play by your archaic rules.

Edited September 16, 2015 by Springer

[cybercoma]

Cyber, you're wasting my time.

And you've offered up exactly nothing in return for it.

Clearly, your avatar resembles your attitude towards debate better than you know.

It certainly expresses my attitude towards your inability to make any substantiated connection between this document and communism. I'd say thanks for trying, but you didn't even get that far.

[69cat]

WIP, you need to understand the subject matter and ignore the left wing media that has no intention of explaining the reality of many topics. The "Canadian" wheat board covered alb, sk and mb only. How is it fair to a wheat grower in manitoba to take a set price with predetermined delivery quotas when his neighbor in Ontario had complete marketing freedom.

Here is your reality test, if the CWB was such a fantastic entity why did not all provinces lobby to be included and make it in reality the Canadian WB. Yup, you just got the answer.

Lets further eloborate on its workings. The cwb set the price, told you how much grain you can sell at that moment and for what price. When you are sitting on say $3M of inventory how do you, as a private business owner, feel about that situation.

Furthermore, when you do sell your inventory you are given an initial price, and do not know what the final price will be or when you will get final payment. How do you feel running a business with $5M revenue, cash flow requirements to make your head spin and not knowing when or what is your final pay for something sold a year before.

And to top this all off, as much as you hate it, your ONLY choice is not to grow grain that is under the CWB mandate.

How does anyone hate Harper for doing away with this system. Lets say you are this private business owner, or you pro or anti Harper?

Oh yeah, the big bad corporation angle. Guess what? They are in business to make a profit. If they can make $20 on a ton of grain then they will pay you whatever it takes to get that ton of grain in their hands, that is a free market economy. If they dont pay enough i will sit on it, if another competitor wants it they will have to bid higher than the first. The first company remember is there to make a profit, if they dont pay enough to buy my grain then they suffer by not making a profit.

This all makes sense correct?

As for the gmo thing i will stay out of it as there is way too much speculation and what if on that matter. I will simply say that i grow grains, i sell grains, i keep some in the bin to seed with next year too. And after my seed is into its 3rd, 4th or 5th generation i will go to a seed company and buy a new batch. As i say in my earlier post, gmo debate is best left alone though we have the luxury of passing judgement here.

[PIK]

Poor prices and a 1-17 rider club, things can get tough out there. lol,

[Springer]

The motivating premise of this manifesto obviously is AGW/Climate Change.

Time for some biting satirical comic relief. This vid - whomever put it together was brilliant - has generated no end of laughter among those to whom I've shown it...

[69cat]

Yeah PIK, tough one with the Riders but still lots of excitement.

And not to give the "huge corps are bad" any amo, peas were hitting $9.25/bu recently, lentlis at $0.33/bu, yellow mustard at $0.39/lb. All top end prices.

Which brings up another fallacy that big business will ruin the farmer without the CWB. Guess what, all those crops i listed we have been selling to those evil big companies for decades and doing a whole better than selling wheat to CWB. But lets keep that all hush, hush.

[69cat]

Thanks for that vid Springer. I never did get anyone to take on my post with example of why i think there is bad science regarding GW in your post on voting conservative. Go figure, global warming is something you simply have to beleive i guess. Dont question or apply a logical view to the topic.

[WIP]

WIP...

I've been listening to capitalists-will-cause-the end-of-the world rants of socialists since junior high, some 45 years ago.

The main ones threatening to crash and burn these days are countries that have been economically and financially run into the dirt by socialism.

...which, no doubt, in your mind is still all the fault of nasty capitalists that won't play by your archaic rules.

If you're referring to The Club of Rome, Barry Commoner and Paul Ehrlich and others.....they were right! Look at the Club of Rome forcasts for business-as-usual exploitation of the environment, and everything is on track for modern global capitalism to grind down to ashes. The only thing missing 40 years ago was global warming/climate change, because the effects of increasing CO2 levels in the atmosphere were not very well understood in the late 60's. The basic scenario for how the club saw things would go in this century is sure as hell a lot better forcasting than the techno-optimists like Julian Simon or Herman Kahn ever came up with!

[Springer]

Wip...

Go back to page 5 of this topic, and watch the video interview with Freeman Dyson. His scientific credentials are impeccable, and clearly he has no ideological axes to grind. The pre-amble in the vid will tell you everything you need to know about him.

Fascinating thing has been happening over the last several decades, established by satellite imagery: Global flora, and the bio-mass thereof, has increased an estimated 15%. The reason? CO2 levels. Fact is, at 150 ppm, plant life ceases to exist. At 250 ppm, it's borderline starvation for plants. The levels of the last century, if not millennia, are among the lowest of the last several hundred million years, over same that time of which CO2 levels have been at orders of magnitude higher than today. Indeed, during times when the largest creatures ever to inhabit the planet thrived. It takes a lot of vegetation to feed 30 tons of dinosaur every day, eh?

I watched an interview a while back with the head of the EU's committee on climate change. She said that they plan to spend $7,000,000,000,000 - that's trillions - on climate change by the year 2100. Someone then put it to her that it had been concluded that such an expenditure would result in lowering global temperatures by one tenth of one percent. She replied that, yes, she was aware of this...but it is still the right thing to do. Frankly, you can't even make up unowhat like this.

Carbon credits, created out of thin air by people in far away places, traded by people in far away towers, tracked on computers nobody will ever see, and accounted for by people (UN?) accountable to nobody. You want to talk about a capitalist broker's wet dream come true, or what? 3% in and 3% out, talk about a license to print money! The first attempt at this in Europe several years ago saw $5 billion out of a total of $7 billion worth of activity disappear forever into the hands of organized crime.

And to what end? The school boards here in BC a couple years ago were forced by the BC government to take money out of their budgets to buy carbon offset credits...millions of dollars worth from already cash strapped schools. So much for hiring teachers for our children, right? Done so that the government could claim that it had reduced BC's CO2 output levels. We've had a carbon tax on fuels here for most of a decade now...and you know what? The climate around here hasn't changed one millionth of an iota, and of course it never will. But, as the above video puts it so acutely: Think of the moral superiority liberals bought for themselves. As always, with taxpayers' hard earned coin.

I loathe, passionately, any ideology that props up, if not mandates, utter and morally bereft crap like this.

Edited September 16, 2015 by Springer

[ToadBrother]

Wip...

Go back to page 5 of this topic, and watch the video interview with Freeman Dyson. His scientific credentials are impeccable, and clearly he has no ideological axes to grind. The pre-amble in the vid will tell you everything you need to know about him.

Dyson is a physicist, and even he should be aware that speaking out of your realm of expertise is ill-advised in science. Besides, some of Dyson's claims are completely wrong, so what we have here is little more than a classic fallacious appeal to authority.

[Springer]

Classic fallacious appeal to authority.

I assume that excludes the likes of, hmmm, let me see now...

Al Gore? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al_Gore Your guess as to his field of scientific expertise is as good as mine, I suppose.

David Suzuki? Geneticist?

James Hansen? The guy who told the world circa 1978 that the Ice Age cometh, stock your larders now for the big one! The same guy who told us a mere handful of years ago that the world would be fried to a crisp by now? Now there's an "authority" to behold, ya think?

Jane Fonda? Neil Young? Can I toss in Bozo the Clown, you know, just because?

Hey, just for the sake of comparison, if not just some ***** and giggles, watch this interview with David Suzuki on Australia's ABC network.

I detest the man's politics and ideological bent, and even I was embarrassed for him...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1hKdmQMVJ70

Edited September 16, 2015 by Springer

[Argus]

I don't think I ever said anything of the sort. You, on the other hand, want to have your cake and eat it too.

You referenced how the Conservatives cracked down on their social conservatives to explain why we needn't worry about the NDPs Socialist and Marxist cadre. That certainly suggests you believe Mulcair will crack down in exactly the same way.

[Argus]

how high would you like taxes to be? 50%? 75%?

They're already at 50%

[Argus]

Dyson is a physicist, and even he should be aware that speaking out of your realm of expertise is ill-advised in science. Besides, some of Dyson's claims are completely wrong, so what we have here is little more than a classic fallacious appeal to authority.

You mean like Doctor David Suzuki, whose PHD is in Zoology, explaining climate science to us?