The cost of Migrants

[Argus]

You can't demonstrate your point about the Sikhs. Your point is however, a good reason not to accept too many Sunni Arabs from Syria. Their founder and the person they supposedly want to be like (Mohammed), both practiced and endorsed exactly the problem domestic behavior you would allegedly like to avoid. No serious person disputes that the place of women in the Arab world is what we would call acceptable here.

Why are you replying to yourself as if you were a different person?

[Canada_First]

Why are you replying to yourself as if you were a different person?

was wondering the same thing. Maybe has 2 accounts and forgot to switch?

[hitops]

We have more recent data showing immigrants economic performance has not improved.

http://global-economics.ca/immigration_conservative_policies_2012.htm

So again great, but again are you wanting to talk about immigrants generally, or are you responding to my point about Indo-canadians?

Your information is unsourced and unverified. A guy on a blog says something, unsourced, and I'm supposed to take his numbers against those of stats canada? No. Some guy I never heard of wrote a book. So? Source?

If you want me to believe that the stats canada figures from nine years ago are completely different now I need something official, not some unsourced material from some unnamed writers.

Again, the last official stats can figures we have suggest immigrants, in general, from that whole part of the world, fare poorly in Canada as far as average income goes.

India 22,878

Pakistan 16,015

West Central Asia and Middle East 13,878

http://global-economics.ca/empin_immigrant_region.htm

Great, still old data. That was collected in the decades right after the main early group of them migrated. They are always poorer in the first generation. But the kids are doing very well, just like the kids of most Asian immigrants.

My guess is that if you have a university degree, you have basic literacy.

This is responding to what you said about immigrants having literacy, quoted immediately above that comment. Still don't see how that is an insult, or having anything to do with you at all. You implied that immigrants don't have basic literally. I informed you that with a much higher than average rate of university degrees, Indo Canadians are likely quite literate. Then you got insulted, evidently.

I don't give a crap about the Indian community (no pun intended). I put the information which Stats Canada printed. Somehow this has got you on your high horse. I don't give a crap about that either.

Your speculation about somebody's high horse could honestly not be less relevant to the discussion. You love to imagine that people get offended, that you get offended, that somebody gets on their high horse etc. I supposed this image makes you happy somehow. Enjoy.

Written, no doubt, by Indo-Canadians.

I figured you would dismiss it without reading it based on some insubstantial reason. Obviously, it must be wrong if written by the community, I guess.......for the same reason that because you have never heard of the author of that book, it must be wrong? Airtight logic. Also no need to do any work.

If statesman is the holy grail of everything to you, you should note that even in the old data you worship, indocanadians are noted to have far more education than Canadians, and lower unemployment. IN a generation, this predictably translates into better incomes as well.

Here's another website again saying the same thing.

http://www.garamchai.com/canada/

But of course, it obviously can't be trusted as it is written by an IndoCanadian.......right?

Indians form a part of the higher echelons of the socio-economic spectrum in the Canada, earning an average of $69,000 versus a national average of $49000 per annum.

Edited September 16, 2015 by hitops

[hitops]

Why are you replying to yourself as if you were a different person?

Forgot to use chrome, IE for me sometimes just makes any quote or edit automatically quote the most recent post instead of the one you want.

Edited September 16, 2015 by hitops

[eyeball]

There is and has been for some years an ongoing desire among Muslims to re-establish the 'caliphate' a world-wide merging of all Muslims under one government. The majority of Muslims in most surveys say they want such an entity.

Yet in a 2006 Gallup survey of Muslims living in Egypt, Morocco, Indonesia and Pakistan, two-thirds of respondents said they supported the goal of "unifying all Islamic countries" into a new caliphate.

http://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-29761018

92% of Saudis in poll says ISIS behaviour is in line with the Koran.

https://muslimstatistics.wordpress.com/2014/08/24/92-of-saudis-believes-that-isis-conforms-to-the-values-of-islam-and-islamic-law-survey/

it would be a gross mistake to imagine that the idea of universal conquest may be considered as obliterated...the canonists and the vulgar still live in the illusion of the days of Islam's greatness. The legists continue to ground their appreciation of every actual political condition on the law of the holy war, which war ought never be allowed to cease entirely until all mankind is reduced to the authority of Islam-the heathen by conversion, the adherents of acknowledged Scripture [i.e., Jews and Christians] by submission.

http://www.americanthinker.com/articles/2007/04/the_muslim_mainstream_and_the.html

Did you actually read through the entire article in your first link? It was a great article by the way thanks. If you'd read the whole thing you might have thought twice before weaving it together with another nefariously titled headline in an article about a pretty dubious sounding survey and a right-wing Christian conservative blog opinion.

And the overwhelming majority, even of those who do believe that a new caliphate is a realistic political objective, completely reject the violence espoused by the self-styled Islamic State.

Anyways, thanks again for the article. I found it really explained what Caliphate means to the vast majority of normal Islamic people.

[Scotty]

Results show that there is no consistency in attitudes about sharia law. It varies considerably by region. Muslims in South and Southeast Asia, Africa and the Middle East were the most likely to support making sharia law the official law in their country. M

So is it your position that the Muslim migrants who come from the middle east, where they want to see Sharia law, will no longer want Sharia law once they leave that area and go someplace else? It's all well and good saying how Muslims in other regions don't want it as much, but we're not talking about migrants from Indonesia here, but from the middle east. And there's more to their attitudes than Sharia law. There's the whole kit and kaboodle of intolerance for differences and equality, especially when speaking about women, Jews and gays.

[cybercoma]

So is it your position that the Muslim migrants who come from the middle east, where they want to see Sharia law, will no longer want Sharia law once they leave that area and go someplace else? It's all well and good saying how Muslims in other regions don't want it as much, but we're not talking about migrants from Indonesia here, but from the middle east. And there's more to their attitudes than Sharia law. There's the whole kit and kaboodle of intolerance for differences and equality, especially when speaking about women, Jews and gays.

When Muslims are in nations where there is a separation of religion and the state and where sharia isn't already an established part of the law, they're the least likely to say they want it to be the official law in the country. And that's when they're in countries where Islam is the majority religion. What in that poll would suggest to you that they would come here, where there's a wide variety of religions practiced, a separation of religion and state, and no established sharia tenets in our laws, and suddenly want something that even in Muslim countries they don't want?

[hitops]

When Muslims are in nations where there is a separation of religion and the state and where sharia isn't already an established part of the law, they're the least likely to say they want it to be the official law in the country. And that's when they're in countries where Islam is the majority religion. What in that poll would suggest to you that they would come here, where there's a wide variety of religions practiced, a separation of religion and state, and no established sharia tenets in our laws, and suddenly want something that even in Muslim countries they don't want?

Most Muslims I've gotten to know in any way personally, at the end of the day are sympathetic to Sharia law type ideas, and even in many cases to ISIS type groups. I have been told by Muslims, in Canada, in university, that they hate Jews and that Jews are like animals. This is not in debates, this is in casual conversations with people I have befriended. These are students doing normal, challenging university programs who can otherwise function just fine and give you a nice smile and make normal-looking small talk. The ideology is their, and it doesn't go away just because you live in a secular democracy.

I don't think we want more of that. What we want more of is people like the Vietnamese, Indians or Philippines who see us as equals and see the society as one of meritocracy.

Edited September 16, 2015 by hitops

[WIP]

So is it your position that the Muslim migrants who come from the middle east, where they want to see Sharia law, will no longer want Sharia law once they leave that area and go someplace else? It's all well and good saying how Muslims in other regions don't want it as much, but we're not talking about migrants from Indonesia here, but from the middle east. And there's more to their attitudes than Sharia law. There's the whole kit and kaboodle of intolerance for differences and equality, especially when speaking about women, Jews and gays.

At best, religious training and education instills good social principles and reinforces the message through regular practice. But nobody...including fundamentalists...whether they claim to be Christian, Muslim, Jewish, Hindu etc. follows orders contained within their holy books EVEN if they claim to do so! It is rhetoric that demonstrates the careful cherrypicking behind the claim every single time a fundamentalist.....like Kentucky's Kim Davis, in the latest pop example, apply their adherence to scripture to justify what they want/ or don't want to do, YET ignore the same books when it orders them to do things they cannot or are not willing to do.....like never divorce under any circumstances!

But, the suspicions and the assorted crap on your rightwing sites are just a re-shifting of rhetoric that used to apply to communist infiltration in an earlier time when the Soviet Union was presented as the threat for warmongers and rightwing demagogues to rally against!

[cybercoma]

Most Muslims I've gotten to know in any way personally...

Are you asking me to speak to your unverifiable anecdotes? Edited September 16, 2015 by cybercoma

[bush_cheney2004]

Most Muslims I've gotten to know in any way personally, at the end of the day are sympathetic to Sharia law type ideas, and even in many cases to ISIS type groups. I have been told by Muslims, in Canada, in university, that they hate Jews and that Jews are like animals. This is not in debates, this is in casual conversations with people I have befriended.

...I don't think we want more of that.

Meh....some members here have posted similar sentiments about Americans in many contexts, with particular vitriol reserved for "right wing extremists". Plus they have barbaric ideas about gun rights and hate speech. So you gonna ban American emigres too ?

[ToadBrother]

Meh....some members here have posted similar sentiments about Americans in many contexts, with particular vitriol reserved for "right wing extremists". Plus they have barbaric ideas about gun rights and hate speech. So you gonna ban American emigres too ?

I think there is a certain kind of person, and you Americans have your share of them too, who view pretty much any immigration as bad. Frequently, when it comes to Americans, as it is with East Asians these days, it's all about how they're "stealing our land".

I guess that's some sort of improvement over "lusting after our women" and "tainting our precious bodily fluids", but still, it's a sad universal truth that humans are fundamentally tribal. A lot of Canadians view Western Europeans and Americans as part of their tribe, so, it's okay to let them in. But go much beyond that, and all of a sudden we're right back to the "fifth column" kind of nonsense which has used to attack every kind of immigrant from the Irish fleeing the Potato Famine to Chinese. What I really love about these latest attacks on certain groups is how merely anecdotal claims are put forward as rock solid evidence that all them Muslims are out to steal our women and make 'em wear veils.

I like to imagine that a species that can build tunnels under the English Channel or launch probes to Pluto might finally start to shake off the nastier baggage, but alas, that doesn't seem destined to be.

But then, I dunno... Maybe you Yanks are out to steal our women and make them pack handguns! Shifty Americans, I heard one once say he favored gun rights at a University, so I know we shouldn't let none of yer kind in!

[bush_cheney2004]

...I guess that's some sort of improvement over "lusting after our women" and "tainting our precious bodily fluids", but still, it's a sad universal truth that humans are fundamentally tribal. A lot of Canadians view Western Europeans and Americans as part of their tribe, so, it's okay to let them in.

This Canadian attribute also manifests itself when some speak about "North Americans", except for those Mexicans of course!

[ToadBrother]

This Canadian attribute also manifests itself when some speak about "North Americans", except for those Mexicans of course!

Pah! I think we should build a wall to keep Panamanians out!

[Argus]

But the kids are doing very well, just like the kids of most Asian immigrants.

They're also not immigrants.

This is responding to what you said about immigrants having literacy, quoted immediately above that comment. Still don't see how that is an insult, or having anything to do with you at all.

You changed the subject from immigrants to me, suggesting I wasn't very literate.

You implied that immigrants don't have basic literally. I informed you that with a much higher than average rate of university degrees, Indo Canadians are likely quite literate.

Given the endemic corruption in India I don't know as I'd trust any piece of paper which came out of that place.

Not to mention...

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/worldviews/wp/2015/03/19/these-indian-parents-climbed-a-school-wall-to-help-their-kids-cheat-on-an-exam/

I figured you would dismiss it without reading it based on some insubstantial reason.

I don't consider that it used numbers without any source for those numbers to be insubstantial.

[hitops]

Are you asking me to speak to your unverifiable anecdotes?

I'd prefer you didn't speak at all, but we'll have to tolerate you I supposed.

[hitops]

Meh....some members here have posted similar sentiments about Americans in many contexts, with particular vitriol reserved for "right wing extremists". Plus they have barbaric ideas about gun rights and hate speech. So you gonna ban American emigres too ?

No because American immigrants largely don't preach adherence to a book who's author says they have the right to kill and subjugate me. I'm highly pro-immigrant, just not pro muslim immigrant. I can't get enough of Filipinos for example, so hard working, so friendly, not believing I deserve to die or women are inferior, etc.

Edited September 17, 2015 by hitops

[hitops]

You changed the subject from immigrants to me, suggesting I wasn't very literate.

No, I didn't, You apparently just thought I did. You are quick to perceive insult when non exists. Go read that post again, after a chill pill. You implied immigrants lack literacy. I countered by saying they have higher rates of university education, so my guess is they do not. You, for reasons known only to yourself, took this as an insult.

Given the endemic corruption in India I don't know as I'd trust any piece of paper which came out of that place.

Good thing it didn't then.

Not to mention...

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/worldviews/wp/2015/03/19/these-indian-parents-climbed-a-school-wall-to-help-their-kids-cheat-on-an-exam/

The subject is Indians in Canada, not in India. Please stay on topic.

I don't consider that it used numbers without any source for those numbers to be insubstantial.

But that's not what you said. You said you didn't trust it because it was written by Indo-Canadians.

[cybercoma]

I'd prefer you didn't speak at all, but we'll have to tolerate you I supposed.

There's an ignore feature in your control panel. Feel free to use it.

[Argus]

No, I didn't, You apparently just thought I did. You are quick to perceive insult when non exists. Go read that post again, after a chill pill. You implied immigrants lack literacy. I countered by saying they have higher rates of university education, so my guess is they do not. You, for reasons known only to yourself, took this as an insult.

You used "you" not "they", but forget it. You've been around long enough to know that anyone who questions immigration in any way is constantly insulted.

As to literacy, every report I've ever seen suggests literacy among immigrants is low. Here's another.

About six in 10 newcomers have less than the desired level of literacy, the study says, and the employment rate for those with poor literacy skills is almost 20 percentage points lower than for those with the desired level.

http://www.td.com/document/PDF/economics/special/ff0212_immigration.pdf

The subject is Indians in Canada, not in India. Please stay on topic.

This is on topic. Where do you think the Indians in Canada are from? You're saying they must have literacy skills since they have degrees. Well, cheating is pretty common in all aspects of Indian education.

Cheating during exams is not new in India and despite being illegal has flourished in most parts of the country for so long that it has almost become endemic.

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-india-33307552

But that's not what you said. You said you didn't trust it because it was written by Indo-Canadians.

No, I said it was unsourced data from an indo-Canadian.

Edited September 17, 2015 by Argus

[hitops]

There's an ignore feature in your control panel. Feel free to use it.

Is there a 'on behalf of everyone' option?

[cybercoma]

Is there a 'on behalf of everyone' option?

Shall we trade insults for awhile or are you planning in growing up soon?

[hitops]

You used "you" not "they", but forget it. You've been around long enough to know that anyone who questions immigration in any way is constantly insulted.

That could be, I have no idea.

As to literacy, every report I've ever seen suggests literacy among immigrants is low. Here's another.

Good for you but again you're talking about immigrants in general, something I never contested. Your favoured 2006 census data shows IndoCanadians education levels are markedly above average.

This is on topic. Where do you think the Indians in Canada are from? You're saying they must have literacy skills since they have degrees. Well, cheating is pretty common in all aspects of Indian education.

The topic is Indian immigrants in Canada. The fact that they come from India doesn't change the reality of how they do in Canada. India is a corrupt place. Vietnam was an incredibly terrible case when most came over. They did great.

I don't disagree that some immigrants do poorly. But I do contend that there are vast differences between different groups, and we need to consider that in our immigration policy. The areas of higher learning in science and medicine, as well as the universities, are packed with Indian and Chinese/Taiwanese kids. They disproportionately get degrees and get employed. As a doc I can say it's probably 1/3 to 1/2 of some departments, especially in some of the bigger cities.

When I was trying to get into med school and putting in 4-6 hours a night in studying, that's who I met.....because that's who's also in the library doing the same thing. Exactly zero native kids were doing that, as a comparison.

No, I said it was unsourced data from an indo-Canadian.

No your first objection, immediately after your quote of me was:

"Written, no doubt, by Indo-Canadians. Sorry, not acceptable."

I think you are just a reactive person, and you pull the trigger quickly. The fact that you got insulted at nothing, and then likewise concluded I must be insulted about my wife or some such thing, tells me you are quick to give an emotional dimension to something. But try to remember we don't disagree that immigration is not always good. Immigration is not a charity, it should not be done simply to boost our number or because people somewhere else are poor. Some will help build us and some will just be malcontents who ultimately just try to tear it down. The trouble is figuring out which is which. We can look to the success/non-success of the groups already here, to guide us.

Edited September 18, 2015 by hitops

[bush_cheney2004]

No because American immigrants largely don't preach adherence to a book who's author says they have the right to kill and subjugate me.

How many Muslim emigres have killed and subjugated Canadians ? Can't be that bad because Canada releases perps with just a slap on the wrists anyway.

[Argus]

Good for you but again you're talking about immigrants in general, something I never contested. Your favoured 2006 census data shows IndoCanadians education levels are markedly above average.

No, it doesn't The statistics are with regard to immigrants entering Canada. And since cheating is endemic in India their educational levels are not that impressive.

The topic is Indian immigrants in Canada.

No, the topic is on who makes the best immigrants to Canada. Indians are your particular fixation, not mine.

The fact that they come from India doesn't change the reality of how they do in Canada.

And until you show me some other official stats which offset the ones I posted from Stats Canada I will continue to believe what Stats Canada says.

I don't disagree that some immigrants do poorly. But I do contend that there are vast differences between different groups, and we need to consider that in our immigration policy.

I entirely agree.

The areas of higher learning in science and medicine, as well as the universities, are packed with Indian and Chinese/Taiwanese kids. They disproportionately get degrees and get employed.

Disproportionate to whom? Based upon what statistics or study? How many Indians and Chinese are in low skilled, low paid positions that you never encounter? What are the numbers? You don't have a clue. And I'm not going to accept a brag sheet from some Indo Canadian blogger saying how great Indians are, even if your wife is an Indian.