Surprise! UN accuses Israel and Hamas of possible war crimes

[Big Guy]

Quite right, it was not theirs to begin with! Shall we revisit the map again?

Do you mean one of these?;

https://www.google.ca/search?q=israel+takes+over+palestinian+lands&espv=2&biw=1036&bih=875&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ved=0CDoQsARqFQoTCNTgi_Hqs8cCFRESkgod3woGKg

[Rue]

Big Guy your subjective opinions are pronouncements by you they are not facts. The fact you do not able to differentiate the two speaks for itself. Also save the phony thank you. If you are so insistent on being brief then do so. Spare the false platitudes and practice what you preach then breach.

[Big Guy]

Thank you for the brief response. I will consider your advice on the methodology of my posting in the spirit in which it was intended but my initial reaction is continue in the manner in which I am comfortable. If you do not like what is being reported in the Middle East about how the Israelis are treating the Palestinians, then I suggest you contact the editors of these international newspapers and explain to them the error of their ways.

I do hope that you are more successful with them than you are with me.

Going forward - It appears that there are lesser known casualties of the Israeli approach to the West Bank Palestinians;

http://www.aljazeera.com/indepth/inpictures/2015/08/gaza-forgotten-residents-150812103746727.html

As usual, those who cannot defend themselves become the casualties.

[bush_cheney2004]

....As usual, those who cannot defend themselves become the casualties.

Indeed....the longstanding motto of Palestinian terrorists going back more than 50 years. Rockets for sale !

[WIP]

Why do leftists hate Israel so much?

Reason: Leftists feel that everyone should suffer equally. Israel is a bastion for democracy and liberalism in the middle east, where everywhere else in the middle east, women are often stoned to death for being raped.

Leftists want the entire region to be miserable just like they are.

well, thanks for the Israeli edition of empty-headed rightwing propaganda. I've been hearing "Israel is the only democracy in the Middle East" ever since the 6 day war.

Most of us never heard the other side of the story on the rise of Zionism and founding of the modern state of Israel....the animosity and disruptions started when Jews from Europe started offering big money to buy up land from mostly absentee landlords in an area where deeds and land titles had little or no meaning...and the progression towards ethnic cleansing of the territories seized to found the nation....so they never got off on the right foot to begin with, even back in the days when the first Zionists were mostly secular Jews trying to escape Europe and have a homeland of their own.

Israeli governments seemed to be a lot more liberal and generous to the Arabs they occupied, since they represented a minority (about 10%) of the population. But after taking more land in the 6 day war, and then electing extreme Likud governments who didn't recognize international law regarding territories conquered through warfare, the progression of Israel has been towards greater and greater militarization, greater disparities in wealth among Jewish populations (let alone including Palestinians), increased religiosity and extreme re-interpretations of history (it's the only way to try to justify the modern narrative of the right of return). So, Israel today bears a remarkable similarity to the ancient Greek city of Sparta...which became so dependent on maintaining armies to control their colonies and large slave population at home, that the whole culture and ethos of Sparta became nothing more than constant warfare!

And modern day Sparta has so much clout in international geopolitics...including having America by the shorthairs and being beyond criticism, because Israel is the place to go for expertise in counter-insurgency tactics (it wasn't invented by David Petreus) and design of new weapons systems in their twin weapons and counter-insurgency testing labs: the West Bank and Gaza

US Takes Counterinsurgency Lessons From Israel US police get antiterror training in Israel on privately funded trips

There is an old saying though:"live by the sword, die by the sword," and if it wasn't for our growing reliance on the use of force to enforce unwilling nations into full compliance with western terms (something Canada resisted until the Harper Era) we wouldn't be following this kneejerk response of always siding with Israel and looking the other way when they commit war crimes and violate all of the international laws that get tossed around: beginning with moving Israelis looking for their own land into new settlements in the occupied territories. We bring all of the various and unexpected forms of blowback upon ourselves by being part of this operation and doing nothing...not even stepping back from unqualified support of Israel.

[WIP]

Some atrocities are as bad as war crimes. To throw Palestinians off their land so that Israeli's want to live there is inexcusable.

http://www.aljazeera.com/news/2015/08/neighbours-gather-protest-west-bank-eviction-order-150815091446323.html

Any wonder why the rest of the world is slowly turning against Israel.

Going back to that UN report condemning both the Israeli Government and Hamas of war crimes, what I find insulting and a demonstration of how weak UN institutions are is that they have the need to present the story as a "both sides do it" narrative, with no recognition of disparities in power between an armed government and a much more limited resistance movement.

[bush_cheney2004]

Going back to that UN report condemning both the Israeli Government and Hamas of war crimes, what I find insulting and a demonstration of how weak UN institutions are is that they have the need to present the story as a "both sides do it" narrative, with no recognition of disparities in power between an armed government and a much more limited resistance movement.

What difference does it make to the dead victims ? Unless one has a very obvious bias. I support Israel...literally...instead of terrorists.

Edited August 19, 2015 by bush_cheney2004

[Rue]

So WIP terrorism is acceptable, what Hamas does that triggers Israel to do what it does in response gets a pass because it has a disparity in power?

Oh I get it. One can be a war criminal and terrorist and use their own citizens as fodder and deliberately get them killed because they have a disparity of power.

Thanks.

p.s. I find that insulting

[WIP]

Most of those claims that Hamas was using civilians as "human shields" was just a bullshit way of excusing their death tolls of civilians. The IDF has deliberately targeted hospitals, apartment buildings and media centers with foreign journalists during their Gaza invasions. But as I said before, there is a pile of circumstantial evidence that these invasions are motivated by the desire to test new counter-insurgency weapons and battle tactics, and political advantage - Netanyahu trying to bump up his poll numbers before an election, than they have anything to do with "fighting terrorism."

As I said before, Israel has set up a deliberate policy of dismantling Palestinian communities and ethnic cleansing their way towards a larger Jewish state while the UN agencies, the US and allies just say tsk tsk and do NOTHING about it. I don't have a strong burning interest in following Middle East issues as some here have, but my axe to grind is mostly about watching Canada go from being a neutral, bipartisan nation to fully in the Neocon tank with the US, England, Saudi Arabia (now there's an interesting part of this unholy alliance) etc..

[bush_cheney2004]

....As I said before, Israel has set up a deliberate policy of dismantling Palestinian communities and ethnic cleansing their way towards a larger Jewish state while the UN agencies, the US and allies just say tsk tsk and do NOTHING about it.

That's because the Palestinians have used a failed "war crimes" strategy for over 50 years. Bad leadership...terror attacks...corruption...etc.

The U.S. does plenty, like continuing to send foreign aid to Israel to maintain a negotiated status quo.

I don't have a strong burning interest in following Middle East issues as some here have, but my axe to grind is mostly about watching Canada go from being a neutral, bipartisan nation to fully in the Neocon tank with the US, England, Saudi Arabia (now there's an interesting part of this unholy alliance) etc..

Canada has a national interest in the region...just ask former PM Martin about those oil services contracts, military defense contracts, CIFTA, etc.

Edited August 20, 2015 by bush_cheney2004

[Rue]

You made an accusation WIP that Israel deliberately targeted, hospitals, apartment buildings and media centres with foreign journalists.

Now back it up or are you another who will come on this board, throw out the allegations with zero proof and try pass this off as debating.

The very report that Hudson Jones and Marcus and Big Guy et al came on this board to use as a basis to accuse Israel of war crime showed of 6,000 air sortees only 6 of them, that is 0.1 percent of them, were a problem.

Now you want to join in the piss on Israel chorus back it up. Show how that equates to a deliberate targeting. It in fact shows the exact opposite.

More to the point I challenge your fabrication. Back it up with proof.

This exercise of coming on this board and making allegations with zero proof such as Israel attacking international journalists is an out and out falsehood.

Now back it up or will you do what the others do and refuse to back it up? Go on provide the evidence. Anyone can come on this board and play that game of making unsubstantiated allegations.

Further, you came on this board to justify what Hamas did. You defended it. You rationalized it with this absurd comment its acceptable because of a disparity of power.

You came on this board to defend Hamas for engaging in the very thing you accuse Israel of. That in itself rendered any credibility you once had, down the toilet.

Now its time to flush. Either prove your allegation of move on.

[marcus]

You made an accusation WIP that Israel deliberately targeted, hospitals, apartment buildings and media centres with foreign journalists.

He doesn't need to. There have already been numerous credible investigations which have shown most of this.

It's time that Israel is tried for all of its criminal activities.

[WIP]

You made an accusation WIP that Israel deliberately targeted, hospitals, apartment buildings and media centres with foreign journalists.

As if it's hard to find! First, regarding Operation Cast Lead:

Guardian investigation uncovers evidence of alleged Israeli war crimes in Gaza

The Guardian has compiled detailed evidence of alleged war crimes committed by Israel during the 23-day offensive in the Gaza Strip earlier this year, involving the use of Palestinian children as human shields and the targeting of medics and hospitals.

A month-long investigation also obtained evidence of civilians being hit by fire from unmanned drone aircraft said to be so accurate that their operators can tell the colour of the clothes worn by a target.

The testimonies form the basis of three Guardian films which add weight to calls this week for a full inquiry into the events surrounding Operation Cast Lead, which was aimed at Hamas but left about 1,400 Palestinians dead, including more than 300 children.

.

Human rights groups say the vast majority of offences were committed by Israel, and that the Gaza offensive was a disproportionate response to Hamas rocket attacks. Since 2002, there have been 21 Israeli deaths by Hamas rockets fired from Gaza, and during Operation Cast Lead there were three Israeli civilian deaths, six Israeli soldiers killed by Palestinian fire and four killed by friendly fire.

"Only an investigation mandated by the UN security council can ensure Israel's co-operation, and it's the only body that can secure some kind of prosecution," said Amnesty's Donatella Rovera, who spent two weeks in Gaza investigating war crime allegations. "Without a proper investigation there is no deterrent. The message remains the same: 'It's OK to do these things, there won't be any real consequences'."

Some of the most dramatic testimony gathered by the Guardian came from three teenage brothers in the al-Attar family. They describe how they were taken from home at gunpoint, made to kneel in front of Israeli tanks to deter Hamas fighters from firing, and sent by Israeli soldiers into Palestinian houses to clear them. "They would make us go first so if any fighters shot at them the bullets would hit us, not them," 14-year-old Al'a al-Attar said.

Medics and ambulance drivers said they were targeted when they tried to tend to the wounded; sixteen were killed. According to the World Health Organisation, more than half of Gaza's 27 hospitals and 44 clinics were damaged by Israeli bombs.

In a report released today, a medical human rights group said there was "certainty" that Israel violated international humanitarian law during the war, with attacks on medics, damage to medical buildings, indiscriminate attacks on civilians and delays in medical treatment for the injured.

"We have noticed a stark decline in IDF morals concerning the Palestinian population of Gaza, which in reality amounts to a contempt for Palestinian lives," said Dani Filc, chairman of Physicians for Human Rights Israel.

And about those apartment buildings:

Controversial, illegal, and documented: Israeli military strategies in Gaza

2. Israel contends that it warns Gaza residents of imminent air strikes and shelling campaigns and instructs them to flee. However, the crippling siege and total blockade that Israel has imposed on the territory means that Palestinians have no place to go. This allows Israel to kill two birds with one stone, as the saying goes. It can publicly claim that it works to minimize civilian casualties while at the same time killing Palestinians wantonly and with impunity.

3. One of Israel’s methods of warning families in Gaza of an imminent strike is through a “knock on the roof,” a missile that does not contain an explosive warhead. The missile is intended to hit the target and to underline the seriousness of the warning. However, the warning missile strikes its target at about the same forceful velocity as the explosive missile that comes next, collapsing walls and roofs over families attempting to flee. Many Palestinians have been killed by the warning missiles that were allegedly employed to save their lives, including a group of children who were feeding ducks on their roof, CNN reports. In another recored instance, the explosive missile cameonly 58 seconds after the “knock,” which is barely enough time for residents to clear an area.

Now, what I find especially of interest to me, are the revelations that came out about how Israel today is totally dependent on its weapons and warfaring industries for economic gain, and why they are so important to western leaders as well as many dictatorial regimes around the world as revealed in the documentary movie The Lab

New Film Exposes the Israeli Weapon and Security Industry

HEVER: You talk about two kinds of exports in this film. One of them is the arms exports, actual weapons. And the other is exporting training, of expertise, by Israeli former officers, who train other military forces, police, and so on. What is the Isreali specialization? What differentiates Israeli exports from exports from other countries?

FELDMAN: Yeah. I mean, first of all, although there are two kinds of expert in the film, actually there are more than that, 'cause on top of these, there is Homeland Security experts, which is not even counted in the national figures. I mean, the $7 billion Israel gets from defense exports is not included--HLS is not included, and fences and surveillance and many other measures which are also very successfully exported from Israel. I think the main product Israelis are selling, especially in the last decade, is experience. When customers--and I've seen it--from worldwide come to Israel or meet Israelis overseas, they're not especially interested in Israeli engineering or the Israeli product. But the testing of the products, the experience is the main thing they are coming to buy. They want the missile that was shot in the last operation in Gaza or the rifle that was used in the last West Bank incursion. This is what they're interested in.

HEVER: So this brings me to the next question. One of the features which come up a lot in your film is the issue of urban fighting, maybe the sort of expertise that they are talking about. But is there a connection between government policy in pursuing these conflicts, those attacks, and the ability of this industry to generate commerce, to generate trade through the weapon companies?

FELDMAN: I think the appropriate term is not so much urban fighting as asymmetric warfare. This is a term coined, actually, by an Israeli scholar, by Martin van Creveld, which identified this new kind of conflict between a regular army and irregular fighters. In Israel and in many other places, it is very focused on the urban terrain, actually, like in Gaza, like in the West Bank. But it can also occur in Lebanon and in very different terrains.And to your question, yes, I think there is very strong connections in many ways. One is the fact that all these very big defense industries have--they invest a lot in market research, they invest a lot in selling their products to the Israeli army and understanding how to sell it. And, of course, once the army buys the product, it ends up using them. So this is one way to see it. And the other is that in Israel the connection is very close. I mean, many of the politicians who will decide when will the next operation come into being are actually personally involved in this weapons trade industry and have personal or have people in their very close surroundings gaining from these operations.

HEVER: So the Israeli politicians you've interviewed, like the Israeli minister of defense, who later became the minister of industry, labor, and commerce, he was formerly a military officer, wasn't he?

FELDMAN: Yes, yes, yes.

HEVER: And many of them are. So do you think that it reaches the level in which they think about the economic opportunities and the advantages that could be gained from the security industry even before they decide on government policy or launching an attack?

FELDMAN: Again, I don't think my argument in the film is that it's all about money and economic interest and that's everything and, you know, the main reasons to go to operations in Gaza is greed or profit. It's not really that way. There is ideology, there are other factors, of course, which have, probably, a heavier influence. I do think it does play a part in the way the operations are managed in their length, in their duration, in the kinds of weapons which are used. There is a very strong influence, I think. And the other is the fact that now the Israeli economy is so much dependent on these operations. It's 20 percent of the exports. It's 150,000 families--not people--in Israel actually dependent on this industry. And if one day it will stop, if there will be no next operation in Gaza, so Israel will have some economic problems.

And the documentary can be found here: http://www.gumfilms.com/projects/lab

What it boils down to is: a long-running dispute that runs hot and cold over a period of decades, demands so much in resources from the State of Israel that it becomes a nation centered on fighting wars and designing weapons and urban warfare tactics for foreign buyers....and that's why criticism of Israeli policies is so hard to find in mainstream to conservative circles here.

It's the ultimate statement in evil and cynicism that an Islamist party opposed to any negotiations with Israel, was fighting against the PLO, and in the process was aided and abetted by Israel to weaken the PLO's ability to come together to form a unified Palestinian movement. And then, when Hamas forms a government in the Gaza territory, Israel is motivated to find excuses to go to war in Gaza for mostly financial reasons....testing new weapons and tactics and selling both to international buyers!

Edited August 21, 2015 by WIP

[Big Guy]

To WIP - Years ago, when I could still play golf, I remeber times when for some reason a black fly or some other irritating insect would follow me around, buzzing and buzzing. Once in a while, a playing partner would walk over at which point the irritant would switch over to him and follow him for a while.

I appreciated it then and I appreciate it now.

Thank you.

[kraychik]

He uses Mondoweiss as a source without irony. Also the Guardian. Impressive.

Going back to that UN report condemning both the Israeli Government and Hamas of war crimes, what I find insulting and a demonstration of how weak UN institutions are is that they have the need to present the story as a "both sides do it" narrative, with no recognition of disparities in power between an armed government and a much more limited resistance movement.

I love this Marxist approach. The morality/justness of a belligerent is measured by their perceived power. Given that the Arab ("Palestinians") supposedly have less power, we can't judge them by the same standard as the Jews. Assessments of morality are relative, and based on (perceived) power. Lovely.

[WIP]

To WIP - Years ago, when I could still play golf, I remeber times when for some reason a black fly or some other irritating insect would follow me around, buzzing and buzzing. Once in a while, a playing partner would walk over at which point the irritant would switch over to him and follow him for a while.

I appreciated it then and I appreciate it now.

Thank you.

You're welcome! I probably avoid the topic most of the time because I know in advance that the pro-Israel lobby is more widely based and deeply financed than the oil lobby, and just about every other special interest group. As soon as you say the obvious like how a nation can claim to be both democratic and dedicated to one specific ethno-religious group or noting that the sealed off territory of Gaza is effectively an open air prison, or noting the similarities between the encircling and annexing strategies in the West Bank with apartheid South Africa's policy of forcing black populations in tiny...supposedly independent bantustans, and the dramatic difference in the way world leaders (except Reagan and Thatcher) reacted then, and how catatonic they are now when trying to address Israeli policies...etc. etc. and....well the swarm comes after you!

[WIP]

He uses Mondoweiss as a source without irony. Also the Guardian. Impressive.

I love this Marxist approach. The morality/justness of a belligerent is measured by their perceived power. Given that the Arab ("Palestinians") supposedly have less power, we can't judge them by the same standard as the Jews. Assessments of morality are relative, and based on (perceived) power. Lovely.

Hi, conservatroll. Yes, I often go to Mondoweiss, Counterpunch, Washington's Blog, TomDispatch, Antiwar.com, Decline of the Empire....and I'm sure lot's of my other rss feeds you would try to remove from the internet if you could! If Mondo quotes sources such as NY Times, ABC News, CNN...only one source in the part I quoted was from a Palestinian news source, then I'll take from their article rather than splicing together a narrative from source material. And what's wrong with the Guardian? I trust them a lot more than your right wing propaganda sites!

I didn't know that it's a marxist approach to judge two sides in a conflict by first assessing their relative military and economic power, but if that's marxist, it's one more thing that Karl got right....the other one would be how capitalist economic systems are fundamentally unstable and irrational...prone to boom and bust cycles....which right wing economists never seem to understand why....maybe they are the ones who need to read Das Kapital instead of droning on about the evils of communism! We're expected to get bent out of shape by the right wing story that Iran might get The Bomb, at a time when Israel has hundreds of nukes that are completely unregulated. I would find it more of a concern if Israel's ally and Iran's foe - Saudi Arabia gets its hands on some nukes!

Simple facts are that Israel is in the same position now as South Africa back in the 80's. The South African Government could point to the ANC coalition with the Communist Party SA, and instances of the ANC using terrorism in attacks and on suspected informants, but that silver bullet lost its relevance when even America started realizing that supporting them was more trouble than it was worth.

[kraychik]

I agree with your Marxist approach, which is why I want regulations to impose different penalties on criminals based on their assets. In other words, when wealthy individuals commit violent crimes, I want stiffer sentences for them than for those imposed on criminals of lesser means.

Edited August 21, 2015 by kraychik

[bush_cheney2004]

.... As soon as you say the obvious like how a nation can claim to be both democratic and dedicated to one specific ethno-religious group or noting that the sealed off territory of Gaza is effectively an open air prison, or noting the similarities between the encircling and annexing strategies in the West Bank with apartheid South Africa's policy of forcing black populations in tiny...supposedly independent bantustans, and the dramatic difference in the way world leaders (except Reagan and Thatcher) reacted then, and how catatonic they are now when trying to address Israeli policies...etc. etc. and....well the swarm comes after you!

How? The same way that Canada and the U.S. have done in the past and continue to do so. South Africa implemented apartheid using ideas imported directly from Canada's reserve system.

[WIP]

How? The same way that Canada and the U.S. have done in the past and continue to do so. South Africa implemented apartheid using ideas imported directly from Canada's reserve system.

And that's off the topic, but the ethnic cleansings and land thefts is another topic that can't easily be discussed on these forums.....a few have tried in the past, but eventually quit. I might take a stab at it, but note that America's growth and prosperity hinged partly in the early years of Manifest Destiny on taking Indian lands for growing cotton and exploiting available underground resources.

Every example around the world where settlers come in and displace native populations follows similar narratives of God gave this land to us, and told us to kill off the natives who resisted.

[bush_cheney2004]

And that's off the topic, but the ethnic cleansings and land thefts is another topic that can't easily be discussed on these forums.....a few have tried in the past, but eventually quit. I might take a stab at it, but note that America's growth and prosperity hinged partly in the early years of Manifest Destiny on taking Indian lands for growing cotton and exploiting available underground resources.

Just wanted to answer the question about "how a nation can claim..."

It should be obvious to you as you live in Canada and probably know some Canadian history, but I understand the need to deflect to the United States instead.

Israel is a nation state perfectly capable of following such fine examples. God Save the Queen.