Anti-Muslim backlash in Holland

[maplesyrup]

Dutch liberalism stares into a troubled future as anti-Muslim backlash grows

Ismael Taspina heatedly contests that view and says that such outspokenness is dangerous. The director of the Uden school and of a further seven Islamic schools in the central Dutch region of Brabant argues that freedom of speech may be very well. "But when we have all these different backgrounds, maybe we should have limits on what you can say. I am from Turkey. But I feel Dutch, I think Dutch. I dream Dutch. I am Dutch. I'm a Dutch Muslim."

To his admirers, Van Gogh is a martyr to freedom of speech. To his many detractors, Van Gogh was a loudmouthed racist hungry for attention and himself a victim of the hatred he helped to foment.

In the school in Uden, the arsonists also spray painted "Theo RIP" alongside their White Power taunts. "We're not going to accept this. Things will get worse," said Suleiman Sinan, a Turkish teacher at the school.

"It's not just one incident," said Mr Taspina. "This has been developing for years and now it is escalating. It's very deep."

We are going to have to take precautions in Canada or we could similiar problems here. The question is what to do. How do you educate a society to be tolerant? The kids of school age are one thing, hopefully they can still be taught respect for different cultures. It is the Canadian adults I am concerned about, what to do with them.

[August1991]

Goatfucker?

As much or worse has been used on this forum to describe another poster. (I once saw "scoop chute" - translate that into Arabic and imagine the reaction). Yet, no one was killed, nor even threatened.

Free speech is not the issue at all.

There are some people who live in a different world than posters to Maple Forum. In this other world, people believe that if it is Sunday, you must not work. You must pray. Or if it is Friday, you must not work.

Remember the purple dinosaur?

IOW, we do not face Stockwell Day. We face a fully Stocked Idiocy.

How should we confront this new branch of nonsense?

[maplesyrup]

There is nothing you can to with fundamentalists whether they live in the US or Holland or Iraq. They are all crazy.

But if you choose to purposely aggreviate them, you could pay a serious price as did van Goth.

[maplesyrup]

Wow, this is certainly beginning to look like it is getting out of control in the Netherlands:

Flames engulf mosque in Netherlands

There have been more than 20 incidents of fires or vandalism at Muslim buildings - and a handful of retaliatory attacks on Christian churches - since the Nov. 2 killing of filmmaker Theo van Gogh by a suspected Muslim radical.

[maplesyrup]

The Dutch are pulling their troops out of Iraq. Will anyone be left there soon besides the US and Britain?

Dutch Troops to Withdraw from Iraq

[maplesyrup]

Tolerant Dutch Wrestle With Tolerating Intolerance

I never thought I would see this kind of situation happen in Holland, and if it is happeneing there, it could happen in Canada as well. We are going to have to be vigilant as well as moderate in our response to such behaviour if we don't want to deterioriate into the gutter.

[Argus]

What is that expression: "You live by the sword, you die by the sword".

Van Gogh didn't live by the sword. Or has that escaped your notice?

[Argus]

Stop twisting what I said.

I said I do not condone violence.

Regardless of what you claim, what I read from your posts is you believe Van Gogh got what he deserved for daring to say something insulting of Muslims, and that people like Van Gogh should be imprisoned if they say anything that offends anyone.

The left continues to be notorious for its' lack of enthusiasm for freedom of speech.

[maplesyrup]

That is quite a stretch and absurd.

Tell you what, you speak for yourself, and I'll speak for myself.

[Argus]

Do you consider van Goth a peaceful person? I don't.

Why? Because he said things which were insulting about the way Muslims treat women? Do you believe that women should be chattel and have no rights? Do you believe women are inferior? Do you believe they should be killed if they commit immoral behaviour?

Do you believe people who say things you don't like should be killed?

Have you ever considered murdering anyone because you were outraged by their political opinions? Because it certainly sounds like you believe this man got exactly what he deserved.

[Argus]

It's the start point of every debate about free expression – is it an abuse of free speech to shout ‘fire' in a crowded theatre? Maybe the same applies to shouting ‘goatfucker' at a Muslim on TV? It needs to be discussed.

Whatever you think it is I think abuse hardly counts as ‘constructive' debate. It marginalises and silences those who cannot shout as loudly.

Theo van Gogh was murdered by an enemy of free speech, but you can't discuss Theo van Gogh without considering the other results of how he chose to use his own free speech rights while he was alive.

We can only hope to retain our rights to free expression if we are prepared to understand this. No right can be absolute, especially if exercised at the expense of others. That's one of the most fundamental of the UN's list of fundamental human rights.

Think about it.

Yeah, I did. I think it is appallingly ignorant and short-sighted to believe for one moment that there is any morality in forcing people to curtail their freedom of speech because some people are violently opposed to their opinions. If we do not protect speech which is controversial and which offends then there IS no freedom of speech. The shallow and ignorant never seem to understand this.

[maplesyrup]

Argus....you are good with the personal insults, but my friend that is about all you are good for.

Is it an abuse of free speech to shout ‘fire' in a crowded theatre? Maybe the same applies to shouting ‘goatfucker' at a Muslim on TV?

[The Terrible Sweal]

Is it an abuse of free speech to shout ‘fire' in a crowded theatre? Maybe the same applies to shouting ‘goatfucker' at a Muslim on TV?

No, the same does not apply.

[maplesyrup]

Of course it is.

They are both inappropriate behaviour, and there are consequences for one's behaviour.

One you go to jail for, and one you get killed for. Time to wake up. We are four years into the 21st century, get used to it.

[maplesyrup]

AP Interview: Popular Dutch lawmaker urges halt to non-Western immigrants, shutting down radical mosques

Wow this is quite interesting.

Where are they going to send the intolerant Dutch folks who were born in the Netherlands?

I wonder if there are some lessons here for Canada.

[August1991]

I wonder if there are some lessons here for Canada.

Americans (USians) have always taken the huddled masses. We Canadians have historically been more particular.

[Guest eureka]

Canada has taken far more immigrants in proportion to size than the US and has actually had a greater proportionate population growth.

Many millions of the "huddled masses" who went to the US were Canadians as you would know being in Quebec. What Quebec does not know is that a greater number of English Canadians left for the US than did French Canadians.

[Argus]

That is quite a stretch and absurd.

Tell you what, you speak for yourself, and I'll speak for myself.

It is not a stretch at all. You claimed van gogh would be imprissoned under our hate literature laws - though you gave no examples and showing no evidence. And you repeatedly talk about people needing to watch what they say, about them being responsible for actions caused by what they say, about laws to restrain what people say. You also said van gogh was a violent man - again citing no evidence to support this. The clear implication from your posts is he got what he deserved.

[Argus]

Argus....you are good with the personal insults, but my friend that is about all you are good for.

Is it an abuse of free speech to shout ‘fire' in a crowded theatre? Maybe the same applies to shouting ‘goatfucker' at a Muslim on TV?

I don't believe I have delivered any personal insults on this thread. If you think I have then I urge you to report them. I have certainly attacked what you said, and what I believe to be your opinion, and have asked you to clarify - which you have not chosen to done.

Again, your every post seems to take the position that people who say controversial things deserve whatever violence they get. You condemn van gogh for being violente while offering up no supporting citation. I must say that your words and opinions are remarkably unsupported by either evidence or logic.

[Argus]

Of course it is.

They are both inappropriate behaviour, and there are consequences for one's behaviour.

One you go to jail for, and one you get killed for. Time to wake up. We are four years into the 21st century, get used to it.

This appears to be showing an acceptance of political murder, of violence commited against people who have controversial opinions.

[Argus]

I wonder if there are some lessons here for Canada.

Perhaps that we should be careful about who we let into this country, should be more careful about monitoring what kind of hate speech is being delivered in mosques.

Canada is facing the same problems as the Netherlands. We have a large and growing muslim population who will never blend in with the rest of the population. They will always be a seperate community of religious people who feel extreme dissaproval for almost everything Canada stands for. And with the wave of Muslim fundamentalism and religious inspired violence sweeping the globe it is only a matter of time before it comes to Canada.

[kimmy]

Of course it is.

They are both inappropriate behaviour, and there are consequences for one's behaviour.

One you go to jail for, and one you get killed for. Time to wake up. We are four years into the 21st century, get used to it. 

If the Brave New World of the 21st century is one where you can't speak out on important issues for fear that you'll offend somebody and be killed, then we've gone seriously astray and we need to take action against it right now. Your vision of the 21st century makes me want to puke, syrup.

Let me ask: how different is Holland from Canada? Holland is supposed to be a free, liberal society, right? Just like us? If this could happen in Holland, could it happen in Canada?

And if it did happen in Canada, Syrup, would you be as accepting of it?

Suppose some war-like American immigrant to Canada decides that he's had enough of Carolyn Parrish insulting his people, and stabs her to death. Had it coming? Should have kept her mouth shut?

Or somebody makes a documentary about sexual abuse in the Catholic church, and some Catholic takes offense and stabs him to death. Had it coming? Should have censored himself?

Of course not, Syrup. Absolutely not. In the strongest terms not.

Nobody worries that a disgruntled Catholic is going to lash out violently against a documentary film-maker who offends him. So why is the argument different when it comes to free speech that Muslims don't like? Why is it that Theo Van Gogh should have known he was risking death by speaking out against Muslims?

*because you hold Muslims to a lower standard than other people.*

You have apparently decided that Muslims are not civilized enough to understand concepts like the right to express an opinion. That might be something to keep in mind when you're out there branding other people as racists.

-kimmy

[KrustyKidd]

Let me ask: how different is Holland from Canada? Holland is supposed to be a free, liberal society, right? Just like us? If this could happen in Holland, could it happen in Canada?

Free society, first sex change operation, legalized drugs, prostitution whatever you want, just do it. Muslims don't like this, and have full reign under such open societies. In observation of the recent Muslim backlsah here in Canada about their kids being forced to undergo a Liberal lobotomy. Where their kids have to get grade scool sensitivity training to accept gay marriage, we're next on the hit list.

BTW, anybody know the words to 'The twelve days of Winter?' I need them, my kid is going caroling this year.

[kimmy]

Something similar to the Theo Van Gogh murder did happen in Canada.

There was a journalist who wrote damning pieces about a community in Canada. Soon, the things this reporter was saying became so offensive to members of that community that one of them made an attempt to kill that reporter. I guess that Maple Syrup would say he had it coming and that he should have kept his mouth shut.

That reporter was Michel Auger, and the community that was so inflamed by his writing was, of course, the Hell's Angels motorcycle gang.

Is Canada's Muslim community like a motorcycle gang or a mob family, where you speak out at your peril? Is the reporter who detailed the hate-filled rantings of Vancouver's Dar Al Madinah mosque going to turn up dead some day soon? In Syrup's new 21st century Canada, I gather that the answer would be yes? Is that right, Syrup?

-kimmy