Truth and Reconciliation... Legitimacy

[poochy]

Lemkin did not only include physical death in his definition though.

Annihilation, so he invented a word to describe literally an attempt at annihilating the Jewish people and we are to believe that he didn't have their actual deaths in mind when he invented it? Ok, i mean if we are going to infinitely split every hair i will have to concede that maybe he didn't mean actually killing anyone. But really?

[Je suis Omar]

Do you have something to say troll?

Yes, I do. First, what you have done, above, is against forum rules. But I don't want any action taken against you. Next, can you say something without twisting the facts?

"It is intended rather to signify a coordinated plan of different actions aiming at the destruction of essential foundations of the life of national groups, with the aim of annihilating the groups themselves"[/size]

He invented the word, this is his definition, this is THE definition, this did not happen here, nor was it ever attempted.[/size]

You are a couple sources short of a load. Who is 'he'?

[Je suis Omar]

I put this, the internationally accepted definition of genocide, here to provide some focus:

Home

Genocide?

preventgenocideinternational

The legal definition of genocide (Including Discussion and Key terms)

The international legal definition of the crime of genocide is found in Articles II and III of the 1948 Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of Genocide.

Article II describes two elements of the crime of genocide:

1) the mental element, meaning the "intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such", and

2) the physical element which includes five acts described in sections a, b, c, d and e. A crime must include both elements to be called "genocide."

Article III described five punishable forms of the crime of genocide: genocide; conspiracy, incitement, attempt and complicity.

Excerpt from the Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of Genocide (For full text click here)

"Article II: In the present Convention, genocide means any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such:

(a) Killing members of the group;

( Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group;

© Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part;

(d) Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group;

(e) Forcibly transferring children of the group to another group.

Article III: The following acts shall be punishable:

(a) Genocide;

( Conspiracy to commit genocide;

© Direct and public incitement to commit genocide;

(d) Attempt to commit genocide;

(e) Complicity in genocide. "

Discussion:

It is a crime to plan or incite genocide, even before killing starts, and to aid or abet genocide: Criminal acts include conspiracy, direct and public incitement, attempts to commit genocide, and complicity in genocide.

Punishable Acts The following are genocidal acts when committed as part of a policy to destroy a group’s existence:

Killing members of the group includes direct killing and actions causing death.

Causing serious bodily or mental harm includes inflicting trauma on members of the group through widespread torture, rape, sexual violence, forced or coerced use of drugs, and mutilation.

Deliberately inflicting conditions of life calculated to destroy a group includes the deliberate deprivation of resources needed for the group’s physical survival, such as clean water, food, clothing, shelter or medical services. Deprivation of the means to sustain life can be imposed through confiscation of harvests, blockade of foodstuffs, detention in camps, forcible relocation or expulsion into deserts.

Prevention of births includes involuntary sterilization, forced abortion, prohibition of marriage, and long-term separation of men and women intended to prevent procreation.

Forcible transfer of children may be imposed by direct force or by fear of violence, duress, detention, psychological oppression or other methods of coercion. The Convention on the Rights of the Child defines children as persons under the age of 18 years.

Genocidal acts need not kill or cause the death of members of a group. Causing serious bodily or mental harm, prevention of births and transfer of children are acts of genocide when committed as part of a policy to destroy a group’s existence.

Protected Groups:

The law protects four groups - national, ethnical, racial or religious groups.

A national group means a set of individuals whose identity is defined by a common country of nationality or national origin.

An ethnical group is a set of individuals whose identity is defined by common cultural traditions, language or heritage.

A racial group means a set of individuals whose identity is defined by physical characteristics.

A religious group is a set of individuals whose identity is defined by common religious creeds, beliefs, doctrines, practices, or rituals.

Usually people are born into these four groups. These four groups share the common characteristic that individuals are most often born into the group. While some individuals may change nationality or religion - or even adopt a new cultural, ethnic or racial identity - usually people do not choose their group identity. In genocide people are targeted for destruction not because anything they have done, but because of who they are.

Group idenity is often imposed by the perpetrators. Perpetrators of genocide frequently make group categories more rigid or create new definintions which impose group identity on individuals, eithout regard to peoples individual choices.

Key Terms:

The crime of genocide has two elements: intent and action. “Intentional” means purposeful. Intent can be proven directly from statements or orders. But more often, it must be inferred from a systematic pattern of coordinated acts.

Intent is different from motive. Whatever may be the motive for the crime (land expropriation, national security, territorrial integrity, etc.), if the perpetrators commit acts intended to destroy a group, even part of a group, it is genocide.

The phrase "in whole or in part" is important. Perpetrators need not intend to destroy the entire group. Destruction of only part of a group (such as its educated members, or members living in one region) is also genocide. Most authorities require intent to destroy a substantial number of group members – mass murder. But an individual criminal may be guilty of genocide even if he kills only one person, so long as he knew he was participating in a larger plan to destroy the group.

http://www.preventgenocide.org/genocide/officialtext-printerfriendly.htm

[On Guard for Thee]

The fact that it isn't genocide, for one.

Care to back that up.

[On Guard for Thee]

The name of the report is "truth and reconciliation" - not "shame and accuse". The title of the report should have required the use of language that reports the facts in ways that are are going to lead to a constructive conversation about what happened. We did not get that. We got a multi-million dollar propaganda piece that makes no attempt to reconcile. The over the top language makes me wonder how much of the report is pure fiction.

Thats why it is called what it is called. What problem do you have with truth, or, reconciliation....

[dre]

Annihilation, so he invented a word to describe literally an attempt at annihilating the Jewish people and we are to believe that he didn't have their actual deaths in mind when he invented it? Ok, i mean if we are going to infinitely split every hair i will have to concede that maybe he didn't mean actually killing anyone. But really?

Well read what he said...

The objectives of such a plan would be the disintegration of the political and social institutions, of culture, language, national feelings, religion, and the economic existence of national groups, and the destruction of the personal security, liberty, health, dignity, and even the lives of the individuals belonging to such groups.

[Smallc]

He used the word and, not or. That seems to suggest that all of those things must be present. Genocide was a word used to for the worst of the worst - the extermination of a people.

[dre]

You are a couple sources short of a load. Who is 'he'?

Hes Raphael Lemkin, a polish lawyer that moved to America in 1941.

[Smallc]

Care to back that up.

No one was trying to exterminate the aboriginal population, or even their culture. It was a poor attempt at integration.

[On Guard for Thee]

It's true, though, that the UN doesn't have a special category for "cultural" genocide: because committing acts with "intent to destroy" a culture ... is genocide.

Some churches have been using the term "cultural genocide" for some years. It makes it more palatable to their congregations I guess.

And to most Canadians, I suppose.

But Tim is right ... "cultural genocide" is a made in Canada term not used elsewhere.

It's kind of a weasel word.

.

It has no actual legal weight I agree. But Its certainly not a made in Canada term, and it wasnt made up yesterday.

[jacee]

"It is intended rather to signify a coordinated plan of different actions aiming at the destruction of essential foundations of the life of national groups, with the aim of annihilating the groups themselves"

Original definition, from the man who invented it, i dont care how you are anyone else wants to change the word, what happened here was nothing like the holocaust and therefore the word invented to describe the holocaust does not apply. You are diminishing the significance of the original event that inspired the word by using it to describe this situation, not that you could care less.

The Jews were not exterminated ... anihilated. They are still here.

It is the intent ... an attempt to destroy a particular group ... that defines genocide.

.

[Je suis Omar]

Hes Raphael Lemkin, a polish lawyer that moved to America in 1941.

I was aware of who 'he' was, but thank you all the same, Dre.

[On Guard for Thee]

Justify? No. I"m providing context most of you don't seem to understand. You're reading the tales of abuse as a horrible attack on natives by evil White society, but in reality, that's just the way a lot of schools were back then.

Well the schools being discussed here re the residential schools in canada. Try to stay on topic.

[Smallc]

It is the intent ... an attempt to destroy a particular group ... that defines genocide.

.

And that was never the intention with residential schools.

[Smallc]

Well the schools being discussed here re the residential schools in canada. Try to stay on topic.

In other words, your context is inconvenient, and I don't understand.

[dre]

He used the word and, not or. That seems to suggest that all of those things must be present. Genocide was a word used to for the worst of the worst - the extermination of a people.

No, youre pretending the english language works different than it does.

If I say a carpenter could have "nails, a hammer, and EVEN a square" that does not mean all carpenters have a square.

His language is really clear...

Edited June 3, 2015 by dre

[Je suis Omar]

He used the word and, not or. That seems to suggest that all of those things must be present. Genocide was a word used to for the worst of the worst - the extermination of a people.

The actual definition is just a couple of posts above this one of yours, Smallc. Genocide covers the worst of the worst and (possibly) the worst Canada has done.

We hope. There's still Korea, Vietnam, ... .

[On Guard for Thee]

In other words, your context is inconvenient, and I don't understand.

If you dont understand the context, do a little research.

[Smallc]

No, youre pretending the english language works different than it does.

If I say a carpenter could have "nails, a hammer, and EVEN a square" that does not mean all carpenters have a square.

If you say that, you don't know the difference between and, and or.

I'm a real carpenter. I have have hammers, nails, and even a square (therefore I'm definitely a carpenter).

Edited June 3, 2015 by Smallc

[Smallc]

If you dont understand the context, do a little research.

You're not even comprehending my mocking of you.

[Je suis Omar]

If you dont understand the context, do a little research.

Which isn't at all difficult with the full and complete definition, complete with explanatory notes just a few posts prior.

[On Guard for Thee]

Can you post anything without twisting the facts? The word genocide was coined in 1944 to describe the holocaust, GENE OCIDE, in other words the deliberate killing off of a genetic line. Culture doesn't have genes, and even if that was the case, no attempt was ever made to systematically kill off our native population. Now, i fully believe you know this, but on a forum where any left leaning nonsense is protected it's no wonder you feel free to lie about it. Not even to mention that since what happened here to those children is so far removed from what happened to the people who were killed in the holocaust you might as well be urinating on the graves of holocaust victims when you use it to describe the residential school system.

There is a continual effort by some to use the word genocide to describe any number of situations that the word was clearly not intended to describe, i wonder if that is simply ignorance, or an effort to make the word so commonplace as to diminish the event it was first used to describe, when i read some of the absolute nonsense written by some posters here i have no doubt that for at least some the latter applies.

I have no doubt there are other words that could be used to describe this situation, or invent one. While were at that, maybe we could talk about the death rate of aboriginal children outside of residential schools, not all of them went, and of those that did, not all were forced, or the death rate for the general population, maybe we can find even more 'genocides', since it seems we can use the word to describe almost anything and were all so interested in the truth. Perhaps we should have a chat about why our current Inuit population was not the original inhabitant of our arctic, we might want to ask them why they actually eradicated the people who first lived there. Although, there is no one left to apologize to, and after all, the current Inuit population only, 'displaced' the Dorset Inuit, which is a nice way of saying genocide.

Perhaps you are more comfortable with ethnocide.

[Smallc]

Perhaps you are more comfortable with ethnocide.

No one was trying to destroy aboriginal people. Culturecide would be more appropriate (if we were doing what we were accused of)

Edited June 3, 2015 by Smallc

[On Guard for Thee]

You're not even comprehending my mocking of you.

Is that what you were trying to do....ha ha

[Je suis Omar]

If you say that, you don't know the difference between the and, and or.

I'm a real carpenter. I have have hammers, nails, and even a square (therefore I'm definitely a carpenter).

But a real old fashioned one. A real carpenter has power nailers, impact screw drivers, screws and speed squares.

Be there or be square, S.