On Guard for Thee Posted March 1, 2015 Report Posted March 1, 2015 The fact he is a Canadian citizen is irrelevent, he is an Egyptian citizen being charged in Egypt. I have some sympathy for the guy and hope he gets out of there soon but if he was charged with a crime in Canada, how much say do you think the Egyptian government should say in the matter. If Canada goes to bat for him that's fine but Egypt is quite entitled to tell us to pound sand because he is an Egyptian citizen. Well again I would like to know the details of his supposed crime. If its nonsensical and we dont at least try to go to bat, and since he is a Canadian citizen, it might just make you want to re think your travel plans in future. Quote
Wilber Posted March 1, 2015 Report Posted March 1, 2015 Well again I would like to know the details of his supposed crime. If its nonsensical and we dont at least try to go to bat, and since he is a Canadian citizen, it might just make you want to re think your travel plans in future.I would also like to know the details and don't object to becoming involved but I reject the assertion that we are obligated to.I rethink my travel plans all the time. Some people should rethink their citizenship plans because dual citizenship is a two edged sword. Folks go on about the rights and responsibilities of citizenship but they really mean the rights and are just paying lip service to the responsibilities. Sorry but living in this country just long enough to get citizenship then going back to the original country of citizenship to live doesn't mean this country owes you. Canadian citizenship is not just an insurance policy to be used when convenient. That is an insult to all Canadians. Quote "Never trust a man who has not a single redeeming vice". WSC
Keepitsimple Posted March 1, 2015 Report Posted March 1, 2015 He is a Canadian citizen seeking consular assistance. And received it. It is entirely legal and common to have dual or multiple citizenship in Canada. Tom Mulcair and Stepahn Dion are both dual citizens. But they are white, which -let's face it- is the problem for some with Citizen Fahmy who is brown. If he was in a Canadian jail and sought assistance from the Egyptian govt, he'd have gotten help from them. There is no conunumdrum. You're missing the nuance of this particular case. Not only is he Egyptian (and also holds Canadian citizenship) but as I mentioned before - he works for Al Jazeera which is funded by Qatar - which also supports and funds the Muslim Brotherhood. Surely you can see the problems with that from an Egyptian standpoint? Quote Back to Basics
Argus Posted March 1, 2015 Report Posted March 1, 2015 (edited) He is a Canadian citizen seeking consular assistance. And received it. It is entirely legal and common to have dual or multiple citizenship in Canada. Tom Mulcair and Stepahn Dion are both dual citizens. But they are white, which -let's face it- is the problem for some with Citizen Fahmy who is brown. The left always seeks to bring race into discussions where they play no part. It's like you people are obsessed with skin colour. No one gives a damn what his skin colour is. No one has mentioned it. What people resent about him is that he immigrated to Canada yet shows absolutely no interest in or loyalty to this country except when he runs into trouble in his 'home'. Mulcair and Dion grew up and live here. Equating this guy to them is moronic,. Edited March 1, 2015 by Argus Quote "A liberal is someone who claims to be open to all points of view — and then is surprised and offended to find there are other points of view.” William F Buckley
guyser Posted March 1, 2015 Report Posted March 1, 2015 (edited) Yes, with problems like visas and travel documents and passports, not with demanding the local law let you go.Among many other things, yes. Yes, under a country's laws. That is, they are to see that you get treated the same as everyone else. Which isn't necessarily a good thing in a place like Egypt. But they won't supply you with a lawyer, just a list of names you can pick from and hire yourself. And don't expect them to create a diplomatic scene over you, not unless you get your name in the media, anyway. True, but when they see this travesty of justice (even by Egyptian stds) the Ambassador makes some phone calls home and such. I haven't said anything which is incorrect. You are simply putting a different interpretation on things. Apart from the fact that the ambassador and the diplomatic community is there to aid when the law is mistreationg or justice is not bbeing done... Edited March 1, 2015 by Guyser2 Quote
guyser Posted March 1, 2015 Report Posted March 1, 2015 Do you know how many Canadians are rotting in prison around the world right now? None of them making the national news? About 1600.They sure arent making the news, and they sure arent asking for the PM's help. Probably because most of them are guilty and were treated in a fair way by the specific countries legal system. The Ambassador where any of the 1600 knows the details. In the case at hand, we know a travesty occured. Quote
guyser Posted March 1, 2015 Report Posted March 1, 2015 The fact he is a Canadian citizen is irrelevent, he is an Egyptian citizen being charged in Egypt.The fact he is a Egyptian/Canadian citizen is relevent, he is an Egyptian/Canadian citizen being charged in Egypt. Lets establish the facts here wilber. He is both. No denying that. I have some sympathy for the guy and hope he gets out of there soon but if he was charged with a crime in Canada, how much say do you think the Egyptian government should say in the matter.If Canada trumped up bogus charges then they would have say thru diplomatic channels, much like we do in reverse. If Canada goes to bat for him that's fine but Egypt is quite entitled to tell us to pound sand because he is an Egyptian citizen.Egyptian/Canadian....Egyptian/Canadian....Egyptian/Canadian....Egyptian/Canadian....Egyptian/Canadian....get it right, it matters greatly to the discussion. Oh and they can tell us to pound sand, but not becuase he is Egyptian/Canadian, but because they just...can. Quote
guyser Posted March 1, 2015 Report Posted March 1, 2015 No need to point anything out - you've answered your own question. The other guy was an Australian. Fahmy is/was Egyptian who held dual Canadian citizenship.Uh oh...giant hole in this thinking. Peter Greste is a Latvian/Australian. What the F was PM Abbott doing for a Latvian? Or do we change the narrative now? Quote
Keepitsimple Posted March 1, 2015 Report Posted March 1, 2015 Uh oh...giant hole in this thinking. Peter Greste is a Latvian/Australian. What the F was PM Abbott doing for a Latvian? Or do we change the narrative now? Nope - no change required. Peter Greste was not an Egyptian. C'mon, you get it - you're not dumb. It's not about Abbott or Harper....it's about how Egypt treated them differently because Fahmy is/was an Egyptian. Quote Back to Basics
guyser Posted March 1, 2015 Report Posted March 1, 2015 How so?The law, the Charter and so on apply to anyone on CDN soil. They could be from Mars for all it matter. Until his Egyptian citizenship was revoked - and I believe it officially has been only very recently - he was an Egyptian on Egyptian soil.Why do some try to avoid the actual facts when making their argument. He is ( or was) and Egyptian Canadian, full stop. Not one, not the other, but BOTH. That's the peril of having two citizenships.And why would that be? Now that he is ONLY a Canadian, Harper is free to make a call - and I believe the groundwork is now set for that. Tony Abbott had no such issues.And once again....not true. Pm Abbott called Egypt for a Latvian/Australian. So much for that angle. Quote
Argus Posted March 1, 2015 Report Posted March 1, 2015 Apart from the fact that the ambassador and the diplomatic community is there to aid when the law is mistreationg or justice is not bbeing done... No, the ambassador is there to maintain a good relationship, and communications between the Canadian government and a foreign government, as well as to oversee the general operations of the embassy. In most cases he has nothing to do with Canadians there. The consular staff deal with that. Only in rare cases does the ambassador concern himself with what's going on with Canadians there, and only if the government tells him to get involved. Which rarely happens. Our government, as I said, usually doesn't give a damn what happens to Canadians abroad, whether it's injustice or not. Only when a case attracts the interest of the media does the government, Liberal, PC or Conservative, stir itself to get involved beyond consular staff ensuring that the prisoner is not being subjected to torture or other treaty violations are occurring. Quote "A liberal is someone who claims to be open to all points of view — and then is surprised and offended to find there are other points of view.” William F Buckley
guyser Posted March 1, 2015 Report Posted March 1, 2015 Nope - no change required. Peter Greste was not an Egyptian. C'mon, you get it - you're not dumb. It's not about Abbott or Harper....it's about how Egypt treated them differently because Fahmy is/was an Egyptian.There is of course some proof as to how they treated Greste different because he wasnt an Egyptian? Quote
Keepitsimple Posted March 1, 2015 Report Posted March 1, 2015 There is of course some proof as to how they treated Greste different because he wasnt an Egyptian? Yes. The proof is that they released him and he's now back in Australia. Cairo told Fahmy that the only way they would consider releasing him was if he gave up his Egyptian citizenship. Can't get much different than that. Quote Back to Basics
guyser Posted March 1, 2015 Report Posted March 1, 2015 No, the ambassador is there to maintain a good relationship, and communications between the Canadian government and a foreign government, as well as to oversee the general operations of the embassy. In most cases he has nothing to do with Canadians there. The consular staff deal with that. Only in rare cases does the ambassador concern himself with what's going on with Canadians there, and only if the government tells him to get involved.Ina large Embassy, perhaps, but we have lots of small employment ones (COnsulates and EMbassies) and in most cases the Ambassador knows what is going on. The general operatoins of same include assisting jailed CDNS when trumped up or nefarious arrests/incarceration occurs. Quote
guyser Posted March 1, 2015 Report Posted March 1, 2015 Yes. The proof is that they released him and he's now back in Australia. Cairo told Fahmy that the only way they would consider releasing him was if he gave up his Egyptian citizenship. Can't get much different than that.Oh so it had nothing to do with Abbott making that call. I see..... Thanks for the link, wait a sec.... Quote
Wilber Posted March 1, 2015 Report Posted March 1, 2015 The fact he is a Egyptian/Canadian citizen is relevent, he is an Egyptian/Canadian citizen being charged in Egypt. No, he is an Egyptian being charged in Egypt. His Canadian citizenship has no relevance in Egypt. Lets establish the facts here wilber. He is both. No denying that. If Canada trumped up bogus charges then they would have say thru diplomatic channels, much like we do in reverse. Egyptian/Canadian....Egyptian/Canadian....Egyptian/Canadian....Egyptian/Canadian....Egyptian/Canadian....get it right, it matters greatly to the discussion. If Canada decides to give an Egyptian citizen Canadian citizenship that is Canada's business and has nothing to do with Egypt. Egyptian citizens in Egypt are Egyptian. Canada can bleat all it wants and try to support him for humanitarian reasons but his Canadian citizenship has no relevance when it comes to Egypt dealing with its own citizens. Quote "Never trust a man who has not a single redeeming vice". WSC
On Guard for Thee Posted March 1, 2015 Report Posted March 1, 2015 He is no longer an Egyptian citizen and therefore could be released and deported under the same law as Geste. Quote
overthere Posted March 1, 2015 Report Posted March 1, 2015 Egyptian citizens in Egypt are Egyptian. Canadian citizens in Egypt are Canadian. Fahmy is entitled to exactly the same support and assistance as somebody born and raised in Dogsack, Manitoba. Quote Science too hard for you? Try religion!
Wilber Posted March 1, 2015 Report Posted March 1, 2015 He is no longer an Egyptian citizen and therefore could be released and deported under the same law as Geste. There you go, looking at citizenship as a convenience again. I'll use this citizenship until it is no longer convenient, then dump it and use my other citizenship as a parachute. Egypt will have as much sympathy for that as we would for a dual citizen charged in Canada. Quote "Never trust a man who has not a single redeeming vice". WSC
Wilber Posted March 1, 2015 Report Posted March 1, 2015 Canadian citizens in Egypt are Canadian. Fahmy is entitled to exactly the same support and assistance as somebody born and raised in Dogsack, Manitoba. And subject to the same rules as any other Egyptian citizen when in Egypt. Quote "Never trust a man who has not a single redeeming vice". WSC
On Guard for Thee Posted March 1, 2015 Report Posted March 1, 2015 There you go, looking at citizenship as a convenience again. I'll use this citizenship until it is no longer convenient, then dump it and use my other citizenship as a parachute. Egypt will have as much sympathy for that as we would for a dual citizen charged in Canada. I think being jailed for over a year for what by all accounts was a sham trial is a little more than an inconvenience. Quote
overthere Posted March 1, 2015 Report Posted March 1, 2015 Oh so it had nothing to do with Abbott making that call. Unlikely. Australian politicians including their PM and including Abbott have a long, long history of blubbering publicly whenever one of their citizens end up in a foreign jail, particularly in SE Asia where it is common. Schapelle Corby for example and many others. Oz has a Daily Mail style shrieking tabloid press and they must be fed. There is no evidence that the PM appeals have any impact on foreign govts or courts.. Quote Science too hard for you? Try religion!
guyser Posted March 1, 2015 Report Posted March 1, 2015 No, he is an Egyptian/Canadian being charged in Egypt.Just had to fix that for you. What is the problem with accuracy in this thread? His Canadian citizenship has no relevance in Egypt.It allows him to seek help from the CDN Embassy . Is that irrelevant? If he were not Canadian, then the relevance thing would work itself out. If Canada decides to give an Egyptian citizen Canadian citizenship that is Canada's business and has nothing to do with Egypt. Egyptian citizens in Egypt are Egyptian. Canada can bleat all it wants and try to support him for humanitarian reasons but his Canadian citizenship has no relevance when it comes to Egypt dealing with its own citizens.Yes it is Canada's business when they grant CDN citizenship to him. And when they do grant that, then they have an interest when he gets into trouble on what appears to be trumped up charges. Just like thre Aussie Pm did. Quote
overthere Posted March 1, 2015 Report Posted March 1, 2015 There you go, looking at citizenship as a convenience again. I'll use this citizenship until it is no longer convenient, then dump it and use my other citizenship as a parachute. Egypt will have as much sympathy for that as we would for a dual citizen charged in Canada. This 'conveneince' has nothing to do with Canadian citizenship. It is a helpful dodge by the Egyptian govt to render Fahmy a non-Egyptian and make it possible to deport him to the only place he has citizenship. Canada. They cannot render anybody stateless. Quote Science too hard for you? Try religion!
Wilber Posted March 1, 2015 Report Posted March 1, 2015 Just had to fix that for you. What is the problem with accuracy in this thread? There is a problem with comprehension on this thread. Egypt could give a flying fig about the dual citizenship of one of its citizens. It allows him to seek help from the CDN Embassy . Is that irrelevant? If he were not Canadian, then the relevance thing would work itself out. It allows him to seek it but it doesn't give Canada an obligation to give it. He is after all, an Egyptian citizen in Egypt. By his choice, not Canada's. Yes it is Canada's business when they grant CDN citizenship to him. And when they do grant that, then they have an interest when he gets into trouble on what appears to be trumped up charges. Just like thre Aussie Pm did. Interest maybe but no obligation and no authority. Quote "Never trust a man who has not a single redeeming vice". WSC
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