.

[Rue]

Michael Harder nothing you said contradicted what I said, it simply states the simple postulation that anyone should be able to express anything they want in Canada with no limitation. I say bull to that. I say no we have to sooner or later draw a limit. This notion we never say no, comes from this concept of entitlement, that we can never be said no to. Thanks but that belief which can be traced back to the idiot pediatrician Dr.Benjamin Spock in the 1950's who told Western society never say no to children was proven wrong long ago.

Also you continue to repeat the false mantra that a niqab is a religious expression. It is not. Continuing to claim it is does not make it so. Nothing in the Koran requires it or discusses it. Nothing. As stated it actually originated with Byzantine Christians not Muslims and was a device used to try prevent occupying armies from raping women and young girls.

We are past that. If you want to welcome it as a norm go ahead. I think its barbaric, prehistoric, sexist, and retarded. It is my right to have that opinion.

I will not tear the woman's niqab off, but don't ask me to respect it and I will speak out against it. I do no not want such restrictive, fascist values welcomed as a norm in Canada anymore than I do a KKK hood at a civilian ceremony.

Now do tell me, answer it directly, do you draw a line at anything? Do you think you can build a country with no agreement as to basic cultural values we all conform to? Do you really think we can be all things to all people? Right.

Don't tell me you would tolerate a naked man at a Canadian citizenship ceremony claiming its his religious right. You would not.

You only choose this one because its politically acceptable to you.

We do agree on one thing-an individual's choice of expression I do not have the right to prevent, unless I believe it becomes violent or life threatening or condones or incites or aids and abets a crime.

It is none of those. However it does not mean I can not argue for a country that rejects such a value.

I do not want to live in a country that welcomes this practice anymore than I do one that would welcome female circumcision or polygamy.

A line has to be drawn and we have to discuss one and start getting real. Being all things to all people is just a stale version of the spoiled brat who feels entitled and thinks they can walk into a room and demand and be catered to.

No sometimes we say to bratty little children, shut your fct face, no more Big Macs for you.

Cruel? I say live with it fat boy.

Edited April 11, 2015 by Rue

[Michael Hardner]

Michael Harder nothing you said contradicted what I said, it simply states the simple postulation that anyone should be able to express anything they want in Canada with no limitation.

What you said is, basically, that you don't like the values of this new Canadian. You also seem to think that your values somehow represent Canada. I said that judges will decide what is reasonable. You said "Now put up or shut up. How is it not a message saying everyone must accept this value." Which as I pointed out, is your job to prove. It's simply a fact that courts will decide what is reasonable. As for your assertion that the new Canadian's "Message" is as you say, well you have to prove that.

I guess I didn't contradict what you said, except for clarifying the scope of your assertions.

I didn't say anyone should be express anything they want. I said that the courts can decide the limits.

Now, on to the megalomaniacal texture of your arguments, or should I say POV opinions and tastes...

I say bull to that....

YOU say....

I say no we have to sooner...

YOU say....

I think its barbaric

YOU think....

It is my right to have that opinion.

YOUR right....

I will not...

YOU will....

don't ask me to respect it and I will speak out...

YOU and YOU....

I do no not want such restrictive...

YOU....

....anymore than I....

Than YOU....

Now do tell me, answer it directly, do you draw a line at anything?

Yes.

Do you think you can build a country....

The country is built, thanks.

I do not have the right to prevent, unless I believe...

YOU and YOU....

it does not mean I ...

YOU....

I do not want to live in a country...

YOU....

Cruel? I say live with it fat boy.

YOU.... and an insult in the end to boot.

You sure use "I" a lot, and it could be because of a sense of entitlement, or somehow as sense that the law exists to implement your rather stodgy world-view. As I said, YOUR view (and it's all about you, as far as I can tell from your posts) is quite important to YOU, (YOU) but (and this may sting a bit, Rue) your opinions don't matter a lot to me. Your ideas do, if you can back them up enough for us to actually have a discussion.

The sad thing for you to realize is that your opinion amounts to about 1/30,000,000 of the total weight of important opinions in Canada. If you don't like that idea, ie. that you can't stand up on a soap box or on a web board and dictate what Canadian culture is to everybody who is bored enough to read it, well then that's kind of what the country is all about.... so if you don't like it, you should really go back to whatever non-democracy you came from I hate to say.

[Michael Hardner]

As I said, I'm interested in your ideas but not your tastes and unsupported opinions. If you can post without referring to yourself 17 times per post (!).

[Big Guy]

I take my hat off when I eat. That is a Canadian decision. I am uncomfortable when other people at the table wear a hat. I have sat down in public where some people wear a little scull cap when they eat and claim it is a religious practice and cultural norm.

I accept that.

[Michael Hardner]

I accept that.

I think that's VERY Canadian of you, but I don't presume to decide what is or isn't Canadian. Congrats to your assimilation within Canada, IMO.

[Argus]

Well, some would argue they're not "true Canadians"... also they will posture about people coming here and changing "our" culture as if that's a thing.

Yeah, that's a 'thing' for those of us who care about this country. Clearly you don't. You've embraced some kind of philosophical notion that there are no borders or nations and everyone ought to be free to travel wherever they want. That's very ivory tower interesting of you but almost no one sane agrees with that.

And despite the indignation the politically correct profess whenever you bring up such stuff, the fact remains Canada was virtually all white less than a generation ago. So the majority of non whites (excluding aborigines) are foreign born.

[Michael Hardner]

That's fine but we don't have a monoculture- and I don't share culture with people who try to be exclusive

[On Guard for Thee]

I care about this country, and if people werent allowed to travel I wouldnt have been born here. I also very much appreciate its constitution and charter and the the SCC for upholding same. If it offends you, perhaps you should travel.

[guyser]

Michael Harder nothing you said contradicted what I said, it simply states the simple postulation that anyone should be able to express anything they want in Canada with no limitation. I say bull to that.

You are disagreeing what no one else said?

Ok.

I say no we have to sooner or later draw a limit.

We have and do....all the time. Reasonableness is ususally cited as the limit.

What it appears is that YOU...and only YOU...want to draw this line.

Good thing it isnt up to you.

This notion we never say no, comes from this concept of entitlement, that we can never be said no to. Thanks but that belief which can be traced back to the idiot pediatrician Dr.Benjamin Spock in the 1950's who told Western society never say no to children was proven wrong long ago.

LOL

No idea why thats in here, but ok, you think Spocks an idiot and no one says no....contrary to normal parenting where most say No all the time.

However, if your parents never said no, well then maybe thats where you got this cockamamie idea.

Also you continue to repeat the false mantra that a niqab is a religious expression. It is not. Continuing to claim it is does not make it so. Nothing in the Koran requires it or discusses it. Nothing. As stated it actually originated with Byzantine Christians not Muslims and was a device used to try prevent occupying armies from raping women and young girls.

Among other so called religious icons/articles.........right? Some of them are not religiously mnadated. But , as per usual, you never want to go there.

If you want to welcome it as a norm go ahead. I think its barbaric, prehistoric, sexist, and retarded. It is my right to have that opinion.

Your opinion is just that.

I will not tear the woman's niqab off, but don't ask me to respect it and I will speak out against it.

Well...you could try and be arrested for it I suppose.

And of course you could be boorish and speak out about , which you are doing here, but the way you write this appears to be you would do it to the womans face. Which if so, boorish.

I do no not want such restrictive, fascist values welcomed as a norm in Canada anymore than I do a KKK hood at a civilian ceremony.

I..I..I...ok you dont.

Now do tell me, answer it directly, do you draw a line at anything? Do you think you can build a country with no agreement as to basic cultural values we all conform to? Do you really think we can be all things to all people? Right.

As said, its already built. Culture has always shifted and will continue to do so .

Don't tell me you would tolerate a naked man at a Canadian citizenship ceremony claiming its his religious right. You would not.

Wouldnt have to. He would be arrested for public nudity or indecency.

Nice analogy . Want to talk about mini skirts and getting raped ? If you are going to go all out bizarro world then why

not?

We do agree on one thing-an individual's choice of expression I do not have the right to prevent, unless I believe it becomes violent or life threatening or condones or incites or aids and abets a crime.

It is none of those. However it does not mean I can not argue for a country that rejects such a value.

So then why all the long posts where you are specifically trying to get this outlawed and refused at ceremonies?

I do not want to live in a country that welcomes this practice anymore than I do one that would welcome female circumcision or polygamy.

On the first, another wonderful rue analogy. Maybe next time stop and think. FGM is assault.

Polygamy is here and living in this country. Its rather Bountiful , and funny to think there are more of them than there are Niqab wearers in this country. Maybe your intense focus could shine the light on something thats larger ?

No wait....that wont work, they aren't Muslims. Dang it all huh?

A line has to be drawn and we have to discuss one and start getting real. Being all things to all people is just a stale version of the spoiled brat who feels entitled and thinks they can walk into a room and demand and be catered to.

No sometimes we say to bratty little children, shut your fct face, no more Big Macs for you.

Lets parse this shall we ?

A line has to be drawn, meaning you and others need to set some rules, boundaries limitations (kudos Dog Whisperer) for the dress of people of this country .

Interesting? Not in the least.

Doing so would only impose the opinions of a "spoiled brat who feels entitled and thinks they he can walk into a room and demand and be catered to.

Cruel?

Not at all. Since it isnt going to happen.

The Court has answered , so 'I say live with it fat boy'

Edited April 11, 2015 by Guyser2

[Argus]

That's fine but we don't have a monoculture-

We have an overriding general and slightly elastic cultural value system with a lot of variables, but even so, we do have a culture. The more people you bring in whose value systems are diametrically opposed to ours the worse off our country is.

Just as a fer instances, I read in the paper today that it's becoming 'a thing' for ultra orthodox Jews to get into a hissy fit when they get on an airplane and find a woman in the seat assigned next to theirs. They refuse to sit there and demand the woman be moved. Which gives us a clue that religion is one of the influences which keeps people inured within their own cultural value systems, cut off from the mainstream and, in fact, even despising the mainstream.

[Big Guy]

I find it interesting and certainly a mistake when anyone presents a personal point of view and refers to it as "ours" or "this is what we think". For those individuals to attempt to also define "our" culture as an excuse for their personal prejudicial attitudes shows an even lesser grasp of what Canada is all about.

Here is a message for you - post whatever you want as your personal view but do not try to give it credibility by trying to disguise it as the views of this site, this city or this country.

You speak for you and you only. You want to spout racist, bigoted or any other personal view then accredit it to yourself and accept any criticism of YOUR views.

You speak for you and you ONLY!

[Keepitsimple]

I find it interesting and certainly a mistake when anyone presents a personal point of view and refers to it as "ours" or "this is what we think". For those individuals to attempt to also define "our" culture as an excuse for their personal prejudicial attitudes shows an even lesser grasp of what Canada is all about.

Here is a message for you - post whatever you want as your personal view but do not try to give it credibility by trying to disguise it as the views of this site, this city or this country.

You speak for you and you only. You want to spout racist, bigoted or any other personal view then accredit it to yourself and accept any criticism of YOUR views.

You speak for you and you ONLY!

There's no room for racist or genuinely bigoted views - but to think that Canada is just a bunch of individual views is naïve - and for you to act as some sort of forum monitor is sanctimonious at best. There certainly is a lot of "we" and "our" in Canada with regards to core values - and those values are espoused by a multitude of cultures and faiths that have made Canada what it is - everyone is this young country has come from somewhere else. Our ability to accept newcomers from different cultures and just as importantly, their desire to accommodate our society is what will determine Canada's long term success. With globalization and the ease of moving from one country to another - the concept of Reasonable Accommodation becomes more and more important - with equal emphasis on both sides.

So Big Guy - as you say, you speak for you - and you only.

[Big Guy]

I have never stated or implied that I speak for anyone else but me.

And you Keepitsimple, speak for you - and you only.

Edited April 12, 2015 by Big Guy

[On Guard for Thee]

I have never stated or implied that I speak for anyone else but me.

And you Keepitsimple, speak for you - and you only.

And we are thankful for that.

[Keepitsimple]

And we are thankful for that.

As we are for your continued deep thinking.

[Michael Hardner]

We have an overriding general and slightly elastic cultural value system with a lot of variables, but even so, we do have a culture. The more people you bring in whose value systems are diametrically opposed to ours the worse off our country is.

"A" culture is an idea I can support. "Our" culture, is not an idea I can support, especially when some decide, somehow, that somebody born in Canada chooses to not like hockey, to pray at a Mosque, to not allow women to take part in certain religious rites. Those who are laying down those edicts are just reflecting "their" ideas as "our ideas".

I don't trust individuals to decide for me what "our" culture is. "A" culture will emerge from the soup, that's true, and we can just leave the details of what is reasonable to the judicial process. That's good enough for me, and it works. Of course some will always be indignant and make noise about it. I guess if those people "put up and shut up" more often, then I might listen to them but for now it's the distant bray of an angry donkey....

Just as a fer instances, I read in the paper today that it's becoming 'a thing' for ultra orthodox Jews to get into a hissy fit when they get on an airplane and find a woman in the seat assigned next to theirs. They refuse to sit there and demand the woman be moved. Which gives us a clue that religion is one of the influences which keeps people inured within their own cultural value systems, cut off from the mainstream and, in fact, even despising the mainstream.

My 10,000 foot view is that the airline can work it out for now. If it comes down to a lawsuit of some kind then the judges can work it out.

[On Guard for Thee]

As we are for your continued deep thinking.

I have to consider various components of my audience some times.

[Argus]

I have never stated or implied that I speak for anyone else but me.

You don't even speak for you. You seem to feel that withholding judgement - except with regard to the imagined failings of other posters -- is a sign of nobility rather than moral and intellectual bankruptcy.

[Argus]

"A" culture is an idea I can support. "Our" culture, is not an idea I can support, especially when some decide, somehow,that somebody born in Canada chooses to not like hockey,

to pray at a Mosque, to not allow women to take part in certain religious rites. Those who are laying down those edicts are just reflecting "their" ideas as "our ideas".

It never ceases to amuse and amaze me how some of those on the far left do their damnedest to utterly trivialize the brutal, vicious prejudices of certain foreign cultures. While you and others of your ideological persuasion would be aghast at any sign of local prejudice, you blithely dismiss the most cruel and heartless bigotry, racism, homophobia and misogyny on the part of 'foreigners' simply because you have this desperate, patternalistic need to be the apologist for anyone and any group you identify as a minority. I sometimes think that if some religious group (as long as it was non-Christian) adopted a creed which called for sacrificing and eating babies you'd still be tut-tutting anyone who dared to condemn them.

No, Mikey, it's not about people not liking hockey. That's not why people condemn aspects of some foreign cultures. It has a lot more to do with them being so far over the line in terms of their prejudicial beliefs that they make the KKK and the Nazis seem like flaming liberals by comparison.

I don't trust individuals to decide for me what "our" culture is.

Given you don't even believe Canada should exist I don't find it a surprise you dislike the idea we have a culture.

"A" culture will emerge from the soup, that's true, and we can just leave the details of what is reasonable to the judicial process.

Que sera, sera is not what I would call a forward looking policy statement. Yes, a culture will emerge from the stew, and

it will be, in some large degree, the product of the voters who come from foreign countries and cultures who make up that

stew. The more crazy religious voters in that mix, the less likely many of us already here will be to appreciate it. Unlike yourself, you see, I don't feel it's my assigned duty as a White man to be an apologist for the rest of the world. I guess I'm just not as noble as you.

[jacee]

Que sera, sera is not what I would call a forward looking policy statement. Yes, a culture will emerge from the stew, and

it will be, in some large degree, the product of the voters who come from foreign countries and cultures who make up that

stew. The more crazy religious voters in that mix, the less likely many of us already here will be to appreciate it.

And so things carry on ... the same way they always have been.

.

[Argus]

And so things carry on ... the same way they always have been.

.

We never admitted large numbers of crazily religious people before. Unless you count Italians.

[jacee]

We never admitted large numbers of crazily religious people before. Unless you count Italians.

"Crazily" = 'niqab-wearing' in your mind?

:/

.

[Argus]

"Crazily" = 'niqab-wearing' in your mind?

:/

.

What do you call a religion which lets men walk around in tank tops but orders all women to shroud themselves, winter and summer, wherever they go?

Edited April 12, 2015 by Argus

[jacee]

What do you call a religion which lets men walk around in tank tops but orders all women to shroud themselves, winter and summer, wherever they go?

.

Nobody else's business.

We already know you'd like to ban Muslims from Canada, but that's not happening.

And the thread is about wearing a niqab during the citizenship oath.

.

[Argus]

.

Nobody else's business.

It's nobody's business how women are treated as long as they're not white? Is that what you're saying?