Illegal workers in U.S.

[WestCoastRunner]

We're in agreement for a change.

We hear the same "nobody wants these jobs" arguments from the Canadian Restaurant Association types as justification for bringing in TFWs.

"We can't get employees!" should always come with an asterisk attached, that says:

" * at the wages we want to pay."

Employers, be they farms or restaurants or who knows what else, are supposed to raise wages and improve working conditions if they can't find employees. Appealing to a busted TFW program or relying on porous border security to provide their cheap labor is an attack on the value of work. There are enough forces driving the value of labor downwards in today's society already, without deliberately contributing to the problem.

-k

That's not exactly true. You can't compare working in the fields to working at fast food restaurants. The work is completely different and much harder in the fields for any kind of money.

Farmers are willing to pay higher wages to attract workers but the fact remains that Americans don't want to do the hard work often in terrible weather conditions, long hours and long days and seasonal work. Farmers rely on these illegal immigrant workers to keep their businesses running.

Pennysylvania farmers: "Fruit pickers in Adams County, who get paid according to how much they pick, commonly earn $14-$20 an hour. But it’s very hard work, he stresses, often done under uncomfortable conditions and on all days of the week. It also takes a lot of experience and skill to pick well enough to earn those wages. He says farmers advertise for local workers, but attract few applications.

“Americans, for the most part, are not interested in doing this type of work,” he says. “They prefer to make less money and work in a fast food restaurant or a supermarket where the conditions are more comfortable.”

North Carolina: In 2011, 245 people were hired out of 268 referred, but only 163 (66.5 percent) of the hired applicants actually showed up to the first day of work. Worse, only seven lasted to the end of the growing season.

Nevada: Government data analyzed by The Associated Press show most Americans simply don't apply to harvest fruits and vegetables. And the few Americans who do usually don't stay in the fields. "It's just not something that most Americans are going to pack up their bags and move here to do," said farmer Steve Fortin, who pays $10.25 an hour to foreign workers to trim strawberry plants at his nursery near the Nevada border.

Alabama: In Alabama, some 211,000 people are out of work. In rural Perry County, where Harvest Select is located, the unemployment rate is 18.2 percent, twice the national average. One of the big selling points of the immigration law was that it would free up jobs that Republican Governor Robert Bentley said immigrants had stolen from recession-battered Americans. Yet native Alabamians have not come running to fill these newly liberated positions. Many employers think the law is ludicrous and fought to stop it. Immigrants aren’t stealing anything from anyone, they say. Businesses turned to foreign labor only because they couldn’t find enough Americans to take the work they were offering.

[WestCoastRunner]

Yes I noticed the personal insult as well. It's been reported. If I can't get away with doing that, than others shouldn't either.

You are not supposed to post that you reported someone. Those are the rules.

[bush_cheney2004]

How to the contrary ? Was he NOT doing that ? You're just trying to start a different conversation - one that I don't want to have.

Oh I get that, just don't want to pretend that motives and actions are any more virtuous in other circumstances / places.

[bush_cheney2004]

.....Farmers are willing to pay higher wages to attract workers but the fact remains that Americans don't want to do the hard work often in terrible weather conditions, long hours and long days and seasonal work. Farmers rely on these illegal immigrant workers to keep their businesses running.

....and that isn't exactly true either, with about 23% of such farm workers are citizens born in the USA. There are plenty of Americans employed as seasonal workers / pickers.

[WestCoastRunner]

....and that isn't exactly true either, with about 23% of such farm workers are citizens born in the USA. There are plenty of Americans employed as seasonal workers / pickers.

That may be true, but can you explain the farmers quoted in these articles who can't find American workers?

[bush_cheney2004]

That may be true, but can you explain the farmers quoted in these articles who can't find American workers?

First off...they already have some American workers in the fields. What they probably mean is that they can't recruit many Americans as easily as they can undocumented and legal immigrant labour for such low wages. There are millions of native born Americans working alongside illegal and legal immigrants in many different business sectors.

[WestCoastRunner]

First off...they already have some American workers in the fields. What they probably mean is that they can't recruit many Americans a1s easily as they can undocumented and legal immigrant labour for such low wages. There are millions of native born Americans working alongside illegal and legal immigrants in many different business sectors.

We aren't talking about other business sectors. We are talking specifically about farm work. Where are the American workers lining up for these jobs when unemployment is so high and they can work for at least $10.00 an hour for these farmers and up to $15.00 or $20.00 an hour if they want to build up their skill.

How many are 'some' American workers in the fields. Can you provide a number compared to the number of immigrants?

I just don't follow your argument.

Edited February 1, 2015 by WestCoastRunner

[bush_cheney2004]

I just don't follow your argument.

There is no argument....research on the topic is easy to find and it's a fact that there are Americans employed as permanent and temporary farm workers. It is an often repeated myth that "no Americans" will do such work.

[WestCoastRunner]

There is no argument....research on the topic is easy to find and it's a fact that there are Americans employed as permanent and temporary farm workers. It is an often repeated myth that "no Americans" will do such work.

It's not a myth according to those regions mentioned above as I quoted. Can you explain why they can't find workers?

[bush_cheney2004]

It's not a myth according to those regions mentioned above as I quoted. Can you explain why they can't find workers?

Your posted generalities about "most Americans" who won't/don't "come running" for lower paying agriculture is hardly a definitive statistic. Americans do take such jobs, but in lower numbers than legal/illegal immigrant labour that earns a lower wage.

[WestCoastRunner]

Your posted generalities about "most Americans" who won't/don't "come running" for lower paying agriculture is hardly a definitive statistic. Americans do take such jobs, but in lower numbers than legal/illegal immigrant labour that earns a lower wage.

I see you didn't read the links.

[bush_cheney2004]

I see you didn't read the links.

I gots my own links (e.g. Southern Poverty Law Center)...and actual residency/citizenship in the country if you don't mind. Just got back from Socal (Mecca) and it is pretty obvious who does most of the pickin', but that includes some American citizens.

[WestCoastRunner]

I gots my own links (e.g. Southern Poverty Law Center)...and actual residency/citizenship in the country if you don't mind. Just got back from Socal (Mecca) and it is pretty obvious who does most of the pickin', but that includes some American citizens.

If you feel the need to respond to my posts, you should at least read the links I provided. A polite courtesy.

[bush_cheney2004]

If you feel the need to respond to my posts, you should at least read the links I provided. A polite courtesy.

Nope....I read the posts, and will review links when I choose to. The line of reasoning was instantly recognized as flawed and biased about "Americans not wanting to do the hard work..." when clearly that is not true.

[WestCoastRunner]

Nope....I read the posts, and will review links when I choose to. The line of reasoning was instantly recognized as flawed and biased about "Americans not wanting to do the hard work..." when clearly that is not true.

If you read the links, you would see that I supported my statements. They were not flawed or biased as I reported comments from different parts of the good old U.S.A.

Edited February 1, 2015 by WestCoastRunner

[bush_cheney2004]

If you read the links, you would see that I supported my statements. They were not flawed or biased as I reported comments from different parts of the good old U.S.A.

No...you interpreted the links and posted a demonstrably false conclusion, to wit:

Farmers are willing to pay higher wages to attract workers but the fact remains that Americans don't want to do the hard work often in terrible weather conditions, long hours and long days and seasonal work.

I would agree that a majority of Americans do not seek farm labour jobs (for many reasons), but many do.

[WestCoastRunner]

No...you interpreted the links and posted a demonstrably false conclusion, to wit:

Farmers are willing to pay higher wages to attract workers but the fact remains that Americans don't want to do the hard work often in terrible weather conditions, long hours and long days and seasonal work.

I would agree that a majority of Americans do not seek farm labour jobs (for many reasons), but many do.

Exactly my point. Thank you. So why shut out the immigrants who will do the work and save American businesses?

[bush_cheney2004]

Exactly my point. Thank you. So why shut out the immigrants who will do the work and save American businesses?

Many legal immigrants are employed in American agriculture, so I am not sure what you mean by this. If you mean illegal, undocumented workers, immigration law says they are to be returned voluntarily or fingerprinted and deported !

[WestCoastRunner]

I am referring to the OP of this thread. Did you read it?

[bush_cheney2004]

I am referring to the OP of this thread. Did you read it?

Yes.....return and deport illegal immigrants.

[kimmy]

That's not exactly true. You can't compare working in the fields to working at fast food restaurants. The work is completely different and much harder in the fields for any kind of money.

Farmers are willing to pay higher wages to attract workers but the fact remains that Americans don't want to do the hard work often in terrible weather conditions, long hours and long days and seasonal work. Farmers rely on these illegal immigrant workers to keep their businesses running.

Ok, so seasonal work might be an exception, a case where it might make sense to allow employers to bring in temporary foreign workers. Here in Kim Country, a lot of the fruit-picking is done by young people who come from Quebec or the Atlantic and want to see the country, and pick fruit as a way of making some money to pay for their trip out west. There are also kids who need summer work to pay for college. And we do have foreign workers who come from Central America for a couple of months and return home after harvest season.

And if bringing in foreign seasonal workers is necessary, then it should be done in an above-the-board, organized manner. Not a wink-wink, ask the cops to look the other way, under the table manner. If you want foreign workers, do it right. Do it in a way that you can document that you're paying them a fair wage, housing them in reasonable conditions, not gouging them for room and food, and so-on.

Alabama: In Alabama, some 211,000 people are out of work. In rural Perry County, where Harvest Select is located, the unemployment rate is 18.2 percent, twice the national average. One of the big selling points of the immigration law was that it would free up jobs that Republican Governor Robert Bentley said immigrants had stolen from recession-battered Americans. Yet native Alabamians have not come running to fill these newly liberated positions. Many employers think the law is ludicrous and fought to stop it. Immigrants aren’t stealing anything from anyone, they say. Businesses turned to foreign labor only because they couldn’t find enough Americans to take the work they were offering.

This guy is an example of what I was talking about. He's not running a farm, he's running a fish processing plant. Here's the start of the article:

For years, Rhodes has had trouble finding Americans willing to grab a knife and stand 10 or more hours a day in a cold, wet room for minimum wage and skimpy benefits.

Gee, he is unhappy that people don't want to work in those conditions for such small pay? Maybe he should try improving the pay, or the work conditions, or the benefits. Maybe that would help! But he's come up with a different solution: go to the Alabama state government and cry for them to bring back his illegals.

Here's what it comes down to:

For decades many of Alabama’s industries have benefited from a compliant foreign workforce and a state government that largely looked the other way on wages, working conditions, and immigration status. With so many foreign workers now effectively banished from the work pool and jobs sitting empty, businesses must contend with American workers who have higher expectations for themselves and their employers—even in a terrible economy where work is hard to find.

Employers could get away with treating employees like serfs because they had access to a pool of labor who would do anything for minimal pay. Take away that pool of undocumented workers that they can exploit, and sad bosses like Randy Rhodes are discovering that they have to start treating employees like human beings. If Mr Rhodes can only run his factory when there's illegal workers to be exploited, maybe Mr Rhodes is in the wrong business. Maybe he should get back to playing guitar in Ozzy's band.

“I don’t consider this a labor shortage,” says Tom Surtees, Alabama’s director of industrial relations, himself the possessor of a job few would want: calming business owners who have seen their employees vanish. “We’re transitioning from a business model. Whether an employer in agriculture used migrant workers, or whether it’s another industry that used illegal immigrants, they had a business model and that business model is going to have to change.”

Plantation owners had to change their business model when slave labor was ended, too. Tough break for them, but the world marches on.

-k

[WestCoastRunner]

And if bringing in foreign seasonal workers is necessary, then it should be done in an above-the-board, organized manner. Not a wink-wink, ask the cops to look the other way, under the table manner. If you want foreign workers, do it right. Do it in a way that you can document that you're paying them a fair wage, housing them in reasonable conditions, not gouging them for room and food, and so-on.

Plantation owners had to change their business model when slave labor was ended, too. Tough break for them, but the world marches on.

-k

How would you improve working conditions on farms? Bringing in above-the-board workers is not working, hence the illegals.

[kimmy]

How would you improve working conditions on farms?

There might not be much that would improve the work itself. However, it would be possible to ensure that the workers have access to decent housing, access to medical care, and are not being treated badly by employers who have them by the short hairs. None of this can be guaranteed to undocumented workers.

Bringing in above-the-board workers is not working, hence the illegals.

The illegals are hired because they're there and they're cheap.

Foreign laborers could be brought in using a legal process. Go to Mexico, put up a booth that says "We want to hire 100 workers for 3 months this summer. Earn big money legally!" and you'll get your workers. Canada brings in lots of foreign workers using this sort of program. BC orchards don't have Mexicans sneaking into BC from Washington State in the dead of night, but we have plenty of Mexican laborers who are here during harvest season. How'd they get here? Legally.

The US probably has similar programs too. But farms probably don't have to use them because they have the assurance of knowing that a bunch of cheap laborers would just appear at their doorsteps for them to hire (if they don't ask too many questions).

-k

[WestCoastRunner]

There might not be much that would improve the work itself. However, it would be possible to ensure that the workers have access to decent housing, access to medical care, and are not being treated badly by employers who have them by the short hairs. None of this can be guaranteed to undocumented workers.

It has been shown that farmers do provide decent housing, wages, medical treatment etc. However, American workers do not want to do the work. Can you provide cites that these workers are not being provided access to all of these when given the opportunity to work for a reputable company?

Edited February 11, 2015 by WestCoastRunner

[Bonam]

It has been shown that farmers do provide decent housing, wages, medical treatment etc. However, American workers do not want to do the work.

Myth. Raise the offered wage and you'll get plenty of workers. 10 hours in the sun too long for workers? Improve conditions by making it 2 5 hour shifts. Offer more short breaks and have stations with cool beverages available around your farm. It's not hard to improve working conditions.

It's funny that you are essentially arguing to keep wages low and working conditions poor.