Keepitsimple Posted December 31, 2014 Report Posted December 31, 2014 Repairing injuries caused by accidents or disease cannot be compared to deliberate disfiguration. I am sure many women who get breast implants report a higher quality of life. That does not mean anyone with any sense believes they were necessary for the woman to enjoy life. In fact, many would suggest a woman who feels compelled to get breast implants has an unhealthy obession with body image. There has been more than one study that links suicide and breast augmentation. Here's one comprehensive study that quantifies suicides at three times the rate of the general population. One can easily conclude that there would be substantially more who have lived with their continued "body image depression" without ending their lives. The long-term risk of suicide is tripled for women who have undergone cosmetic breast implant surgery, according to a new study led by Loren Lipworth, Sc.D., of the International Epidemiology Institute in Rockville, Md, and the Vanderbilt University Medical Center, Nashville, Tenn. This long-term study further confirms the link between breast implants and a strikingly high risk of suicide and other related causes of death. The increased suicide risk, together with a similar increase in deaths from alcohol or drug dependence, suggests that plastic surgeons should consider mental health screening and follow-up for women who seek breast implants, according to the new study. Dr. Lipworth and colleagues performed an extended follow-up study of 3,527 Swedish women who underwent cosmetic breast implant surgery between 1965 and 1993. Death certificate data were used to analyze causes of death among women with breast implants, compared to the general female population Link:http://www.science20.com/news/breast_implants_linked_to_suicide Quote Back to Basics
TimG Posted December 31, 2014 Report Posted December 31, 2014 (edited) It is a physiological mental condition or difference, not a mental illness.Almost every mental illness has physiological components. e.g. the minds of addicts are biologically different from the minds of non-addicts and there is even a genetic predisposition towards addiction. That does not change the fact that the treatment for addiction is entirely based on changing the addict's attitude towards life. Edited December 31, 2014 by TimG Quote
Black Dog Posted December 31, 2014 Report Posted December 31, 2014 Almost every mental illness has physiological components. e.g. the minds of addicts are biologically different from the minds of non-addicts. That does not change the fact that the treatment for addiction is entirely based on changing the addicts attitude towards life. And there's a variety of ways to do that. You are proposing eliminating a viable treatment option for trans people because you find it icky. Quote
jacee Posted December 31, 2014 Report Posted December 31, 2014 Almost every mental illness has physiological components. e.g. the minds of addicts are biologically different from the minds of non-addicts. That does not change the fact that the treatment for addiction is entirely based on changing the addicts attitude towards life.I think you are overusing the comparison of addictions (something you say you know about) to transgender conditions (something you don't know about).Addiction is an unhealthy choice. Transgender is not a choice, it's just a fact of life for some. . Quote
jacee Posted December 31, 2014 Report Posted December 31, 2014 There has been more than one study that links suicide and breast augmentation. Here's one comprehensive study that quantifies suicides at three times the rate of the general population. One can easily conclude that there would be substantially more who have lived with their continued "body image depression" without ending their lives. Link:http://www.science20.com/news/breast_implants_linked_to_suicide Not suggesting, of course, that breast implants 'cause' suicide ... right? It's likely that those getting implants already have a more severe 'body image depression'. It's also likely that they just have a more severe depression ... and they find out that getting implants isn't the magic solution they thought it would be, and that depresses them more. I think that could be true of people who have transgender surgery too, and I would hope that the professionals involved know that too and have ways of assessing it. . Quote
Keepitsimple Posted December 31, 2014 Report Posted December 31, 2014 Not suggesting, of course, that breast implants 'cause' suicide ... right? It's likely that those getting implants already have a more severe 'body image depression'. It's also likely that they just have a more severe depression ... and they find out that getting implants isn't the magic solution they thought it would be, and that depresses them more. I think that could be true of people who have transgender surgery too, and I would hope that the professionals involved know that too and have ways of assessing it. . The article doesn't say that "implants cause suicide" and neither am I. Since you've re-stated everything said in the article - why couldn't you just say "I agree"? Why do you continually have to make things up? Quote Back to Basics
Big Guy Posted December 31, 2014 Report Posted December 31, 2014 (edited) I submit that it depends on your attitude towards psychology and physiology. If you believe that a transgendered person is mentally ill then you believe that they can be "cured". Many people believe that being "gay" is a mental illness and have clinics set up to "cure" them. Most religions seem to support this concept. All of my experience and research makes me conclude that homosexuality is NOT a mental illness and neither is being transgendered. I have yet to hear of anybody "cured" of being gay and the only successful "cure" that I have seen for the transgendered is a physical sex change. This is the difference between "mutilation" and "corrective surgery". I am also surprised by the number of posters who think they understand mental illness and its "cures". If you have no understanding of the thought processes and feelings of the transgendered then how can you evaluate its validity? Edited December 31, 2014 by Big Guy Quote Note - For those expecting a response from Big Guy: I generally do not read or respond to posts longer then 300 words nor to parsed comments.
TimG Posted December 31, 2014 Report Posted December 31, 2014 (edited) I submit that it depends on your attitude towards psychology and physiology. If you believe that a transgendered person is mentally ill then you believe that they can be "cured".Nonsense. Addicts cannot be cured. They have a permanent physiological abnormality which means they cannot do as other people do. What they can do is learn skills that allow them to live a happy life without using drugs. This has nothing to do with "curing" people or convincing them that they are not what they are. This is about thinking about what treatments make sense and recommending self mutilation does not make sense, although, there are lot of people who want to make self mutilation a "normal" thing to do. Basically my argument is: if sex changes were not technically feasible would people be doomed to a live of misery because of their physiological abnormality? Answering yes is like saying addicts have to use drugs to be happy and it is not possible for them to stop. IOW, it is an admission of failure. Edited December 31, 2014 by TimG Quote
jacee Posted December 31, 2014 Report Posted December 31, 2014 The article doesn't say that "implants cause suicide" and neither am I. Since you've re-stated everything said in the article - why couldn't you just say "I agree"? Why do you continually have to make things up?Having a bad day???Cheer up! Tomorrow's a new start. Quote
Keepitsimple Posted December 31, 2014 Report Posted December 31, 2014 Having a bad day??? Cheer up! Tomorrow's a new start. Actually - it's a great day....but I hope your new start includes a resolution to stop making things up! Quote Back to Basics
jacee Posted December 31, 2014 Report Posted December 31, 2014 (edited) Actually - it's a great day....but I hope your new start includes a resolution to stop making things up!I have no idea what you're talking about, but one's opinion typically is something you make up yourself. My resolution is to make up my face and go out. Happy new year! . Edited December 31, 2014 by jacee Quote
jbg Posted January 1, 2015 Author Report Posted January 1, 2015 "Beyond hilarious," eh?[/size]But isn't there some chance, albeit likelihood, that her problems went beyond gender identity and an operation wouldn't have really solved her problems? Quote Free speech: "You can say what you want, but I don't have to lend you my megaphone." Always remember that when you are in the right you can afford to keep your temper, and when you are in the wrong you cannot afford to lose it. - J.J. Reynolds. Will the steps anyone is proposing to fight "climate change" reduce a single temperature, by a single degree, at a single location? The mantra of "world opinion" or the views of the "international community" betrays flabby and weak reasoning (link).
TimG Posted January 1, 2015 Report Posted January 1, 2015 (edited) But isn't there some chance, albeit likelihood, that her problems went beyond gender identity and an operation wouldn't have really solved her problems?Watch it. You are not allowed to say that. People can claim to commit suicide for any number of dubious reasons that point to mental health issues but if they say they committed suicide because they were not able to mutilate their body then you cannot claim it is a mental health issue - their suicide is entirely society's fault. Edited January 1, 2015 by TimG Quote
cybercoma Posted January 1, 2015 Report Posted January 1, 2015 There has been more than one study that links suicide and breast augmentation. Here's one comprehensive study that quantifies suicides at three times the rate of the general population. One can easily conclude that there would be substantially more who have lived with their continued "body image depression" without ending their lives. Link:http://www.science20.com/news/breast_implants_linked_to_suicide You're concluding what exactly? Quote
cybercoma Posted January 1, 2015 Report Posted January 1, 2015 Watch it. You are not allowed to say that. Just because people think the things someone says are painfully stupid, doesn't mean they're not allowed to say them. Quote
cybercoma Posted January 1, 2015 Report Posted January 1, 2015 But isn't there some chance, albeit likelihood, that her problems went beyond gender identity and an operation wouldn't have really solved her problems? Isn't there possibly some chance that Jews in Nazi Germany were happy working for their captors? Isn't it possible perhaps that there's some chance that slaves were happy being fed and given shelter on plantations in the South? Isn't it possible that someone with gender dysphoria could just live with having a body of the opposite gender that they are? Quote
TimG Posted January 1, 2015 Report Posted January 1, 2015 (edited) Isn't there possibly some chance that Jews in Nazi Germany were happy working for their captors? Isn't it possible perhaps that there's some chance that slaves were happy being fed and given shelter on plantations in the South? Isn't it possible that someone with gender dysphoria could just live with having a body of the opposite gender that they are?It is just bizarre the way you think. I guessing you actually think these absurd analogies have any connection to the issue being discussed. I guess this also means you have broken Godwins law in desperation. What people "are" is the biological sex they were born with. Mentally thinking they are different gender does not change what they are. Expecting people to come to terms with the body they were born with is not the same as executing people because of their religion or enslaving people because of their skin color. What I can't figure is the inherent contradictions in the "transgender rights" crowd. The premise (which is not unreasonable) is that gender and biological sex are different and these differences have a physiological basis. It follows then that there should be nothing wrong with people who have a biological sex that is different from their gender. Yet these people turn around and argue that having a gender with is different from their biological sex is a "defect" that needs correcting. Why? If it is normal there is nothing to correct. More importantly, why is the biological sex the one that needs changing? Why do these people assume that the "mental gender" is an immutable constant that can never change and the only option is changing the biological sex? If it is OK to change the biological sex then why it is not OK to change the gender? It is incoherent nonsense. Edited January 1, 2015 by TimG Quote
Keepitsimple Posted January 1, 2015 Report Posted January 1, 2015 You're concluding what exactly? Nothing more than what the article said and what I added. Can't make it any clearer so here it is again. What is it that you find puzzling? There has been more than one study that links suicide and breast augmentation. Here's one comprehensive study that quantifies suicides at three times the rate of the general population. One can easily conclude that there would be substantially more who have lived with their continued "body image depression" without ending their lives. Quote Back to Basics
Guest Posted January 1, 2015 Report Posted January 1, 2015 Having nutjob parents doesn't help... http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/northamerica/usa/11320725/US-teenager-refused-permission-to-change-sex-by-Christian-parents-commits-suicide.html Quote
Big Guy Posted January 1, 2015 Report Posted January 1, 2015 To TimG - Gays, by following their lifestyle and feelings, do not fit "biologically" to procreate. Do you believe this to be "normal"? Do you believe that homosexuality is a normal and acceptable lifestyle. Is the feeling of love for another individual of the same sex a "defect" that needs correcting? Quote Note - For those expecting a response from Big Guy: I generally do not read or respond to posts longer then 300 words nor to parsed comments.
TimG Posted January 1, 2015 Report Posted January 1, 2015 (edited) To TimG - Gays, by following their lifestyle and feelings, do not fit "biologically" to procreate. Do you believe this to be "normal"? Do you believe that homosexuality is a normal and acceptable lifestyle. Is the feeling of love for another individual of the same sex a "defect" that needs correcting?Gays are not "defective". And unlike you my views are consistent. You are the one arguing that transgender people are defective and need essential corrective surgery (you imply transgender are defective by claiming the surgery is "essential"; if they are normal then the surgery cannot be essential). I say people should accept their nature whatever that may be: even if someone's nature includes a mismatch between perceived gender and biological sex. Edited January 1, 2015 by TimG Quote
Big Guy Posted January 2, 2015 Report Posted January 2, 2015 To TimG - The tone of your response to my post makes me think that you feel I am attacking your views. I am not. You have what appears to be a minority view of transgender. I am trying to follow your logic as to how you came to your conclusions. I believe that transgender people truly believe that they are physically of the wrong gender and need (not want or wish) surgery ( not mutilation) to make them feel normal. Perception is reality and that is their reality . I am glad that they are able to find peace through surgery. I cannot understand how you can treat gay and lesbians feelings as normal and reject transgendered feelings as "unnatural". If you research transgender couples you will see that the majority end up in a male/female relationship. The male who becomes a female seeks out and marries a natural male and vice versa. That makes it evident that the male before surgery would be considered a homosexual before the sex change because of his feelings for other males. Once the surgery has taken place then we have a "normal" heterosexual couple. Do we not. If you accept the feelings of homosexuals as valid then why do you not accept the feelings of transgender as valid? Quote Note - For those expecting a response from Big Guy: I generally do not read or respond to posts longer then 300 words nor to parsed comments.
TimG Posted January 2, 2015 Report Posted January 2, 2015 (edited) I cannot understand how you can treat gay and lesbians feelings as normal and reject transgendered feelings as "unnatural".There are two rational positions one can take when it comes to people experiencing a disconnect between gender and sex: 1) It is defect that requires people to adapt or seek surgery. 2) It is a normal variation which does not require any treatment. The trouble with this debate is activists want to have it both ways. That is they want access to "essential" surgeries based on the premise that it is a defect that requires correction but they get their knickers in a knot if someone actually says that transgenderism is defect that requires correction. I have no patience for the hypocrisy. If transgender people want to be treated as normal human variations then I am fine with that - but that means surgeries are cosmetic - not essential. If people want transgender to be viewed as a defect that can require surgeries to fix then I am fine with that too. But there should be nothing wrong with people who describe transgenderism as a defect that needs to be managed/corrected. It is one or the other - not the contradictory political correct nonsense that we hear today. Edited January 2, 2015 by TimG Quote
cybercoma Posted January 5, 2015 Report Posted January 5, 2015 Nothing more than what the article said and what I added. Can't make it any clearer so here it is again. What is it that you find puzzling? There has been more than one study that links suicide and breast augmentation. Here's one comprehensive study that quantifies suicides at three times the rate of the general population. One can easily conclude that there would be substantially more who have lived with their continued "body image depression" without ending their lives. How are you connecting this to the OP exactly? Quote
cybercoma Posted January 5, 2015 Report Posted January 5, 2015 There are two rational positions No. There are only two positions that you can wrap your closed-minded head around. Quote
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