How Trudeau lost my vote

TimG · August 14, 2014

COnsider this....not everyones pay cheque is made public.

The general rule is any official with influence over the processes used to determine their pay has their pay made public. This includes band chiefs. This does not include data entry clerks at OPG.

Despite the fact that band chiefs basically set their own pay you seem to think that band chiefs should be entitled to keep their pay secret. Why? Do you have any justification that is not racist or self serving?

Edited August 14, 2014 by TimG

guyser · August 14, 2014

The general rule is any official with influence over the processes used to determine their pay has their pay made public.

Cite please. Thanks

Despite the fact that band chiefs basically set their own pay you seem to think that

I highlighted your problem.

Do you have any justification that is not racist or self serving?

Have you stopped beating your wife yet?

TimG · August 14, 2014

Cite please. Thanks

Cite? You are just being ridiculous.

PMs, MPs, MLAs, CEOs of Public Corporations, Heads of Crown Corps, Mayors and Councilors, top Civil Servants all have their pay made public. You know this. All I did is state the reason why it is reasonable to make their pay public.

You can disagree and argue that these people should not have their pay made public, you can agree that band chiefs should have their pay made public or you can concoct some silly justification for why band chiefs should be exempted from rules that everyone else in similar positions follow.

Edited August 14, 2014 by TimG

guyser · August 14, 2014

Cite?

Ya, didnt think you would, cuz if you did your research you would have found out how wrong you are.

You are just being ridiculous.

Only if ridiculous means correct. Ah shucks , thanks !

PMs, MPs, MLAs, CEOs of Public Corporations, Heads of Crown Corps, Mayors and Councilors, top Civil Servants all have their pay made public.

No they dont. Youll probably tell me I am wrong, again without checking the facts...

You know this.

Oh right on cue.

All I did is state the reason why it is reasonable to make their pay public.

Hey now, if you want ALL pay made public , please say so. I am cool with that, not just some govt picking and choosing who to embarass.

You can disagree and argue that these people should not have their pay made public, you can agree that band chiefs should have their pay made public or you can concoct some silly justification for why band chiefs should be exempted from rules that everyone else in similar positions follow.

LOL....I can disagree can I ? With the law? Lots of public servants pay are not published.

Whats the threshold for the Sunshine list in ONT?

Whats the threshold for Feds ?

Would someone in a Fed job (say CBC or civil service mandarin) making $319,000 be on that list ?

Silly justification? LOL, whats silly is you not even knowing the game yet pompously telling me what I think (yup, you were wrong) to making silly assertions of what I was think ing, to being dead wrong about the lists of people who salaries are disclosed.

Now THATS silly. But hey, its fun to watch

Edited August 14, 2014 by Guyser2

TimG · August 14, 2014

LOL....I can disagree can I ? With the law? Lots of public servants pay are not published.

Are you incapable of reading? I said TOP civil servants - all of which have their salaries published:

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/politics/top-government-brass-gain-from-layoffs/article12978666/

So please provide evidence that pay for anyone on my list is NOT available.

(I won't hold my breath).

BTW - a list that details the min/max pay + benefit/bonuses is sufficient disclosure IMO provide the range is not so large it makes the information useless.

And in the unlikely event that you do come up with a couple that slipped through the cracks then I would argue that they should be public too along with the band chiefs.

But the key principal remains the same: if you are in a public position where you have influence over the process used to determine your salary then your salary should be public.

Do you disagree?

being dead wrong about the lists of people who salaries are disclosed.

You are pathetic. The only error I made was the use of the word "public official" without realizing it meant all public servants. That error does not mean what my original intent was wrong. In fact, nothing you have posted has refuted any of my claims once I corrected the errors in wording and stated what I originally intended to say. Edited August 14, 2014 by TimG

guyser · August 14, 2014

Are you incapable of reading?

I am thanks, but apparently you arent.

The Q's were...Whats the threshold for Feds ?

Would someone in a Fed job (say CBC or civil service mandarin) making $319,000 be on that list ? (id assume, maybe incorrectly that someone making $300G would be a top civil employee.)

You can answer that if you wish, insite will be learned.

So please provide evidence that pay for anyone on my list is NOT available.

(I won't hold my breath).

If you find the answer to my questions, this one will be moot.

You are pathetic.

That may be, but I am coming from the truth which apparently you have no idea about, keeping on this silly tangent of yours.

Hey look, goalposts are over there now!

The only error I made was the use of the word "public official" without realizing it meant all public servants. That error does not mean what my original intent was wrong. In fact, nothing you have posted has refuted any of my claims once I corrected the errors in wording and stated what I originally intended to say.

...and youre still wrong, Edited August 14, 2014 by Guyser2

guyser · August 14, 2014

Anyone curious about why the Harper govt raised the bar for reporting pay for high level civil servants ?

IY sure isnt anywhere near the sunshine list that exists in Ont.

Edited August 14, 2014 by Guyser2

TimG · August 14, 2014

Would someone in a Fed job (say CBC or civil service mandarin) making $319,000 be on that list ? (id assume, maybe incorrectly that someone making $300G would be a top civil employee.)

Why? I have made it clear that the influence over the process is what matters.

Simply picking an arbitrary threshold makes no sense.

Band chiefs run their government. They control the process used to determine their pay.

It should be disclosed.

Same for mayors, MPs, MLAs.

Same for top civil servants with performance based pay (meaning deputy ministers).

Edited August 14, 2014 by TimG

guyser · August 14, 2014

Why? I have made it clear that the influence over the process is what matters.

If it is voted on, and it is as I understand it, whats the problem? All the pay for FN's is not necessarily public/govt funds.

Simply picking an arbitrary threshold makes no sense.

The Feds raised the disclosure amount to a very high level, in order of course not to be pr get embarassed/

Band chiefs run their government. They control the process used to determine their pay.

While they do, what ever amounts are ultimately paid does not mean its public money. Plenty of people are involved i determinging pay so it isnt as if the Chief can say 'this year I will pay myslef $XXX

Same for top civil servants with performance based pay (meaning deputy ministers).

goalposts be jumping now ! Edited August 14, 2014 by Guyser2

Keepitsimple · August 14, 2014

Cite please. Thanks

I highlighted your problem.

Have you stopped beating your wife yet?

Haven't heard an answer yet.....

So....you disagree that Chiefs and Band Councillors should be treated the same as City/Town Mayors and Councillors?

guyser · August 14, 2014

So....you disagree that Chiefs and Band Councillors should be treated the same as City/Town Mayors and Councillors?

Did i ever say that?

And to add, what business is it of ours if a Band Chief is paid $1M if $950,000 comes from revenue generated from the Band.

The Feds dont disclose all (incl dept heads) salaries, some of them very high, and why dont they? Ahh...protection of their own.

Now if they want to play fair, simple, disclose all salaries that result from the public trough.

My bottom line is this, the govt and various 'types' want nothing better than to piss off the FN's.

Edited August 14, 2014 by Guyser2

TimG · August 14, 2014

While they do, what ever amounts are ultimately paid does not mean its public money.

CEOs and the directors of publicly run corporations have their salaries disclosed. Private money is not enough of a justification. Also, CEO salaries are set by nominally independent compensation committees but these processes are heavily influenced by the CEO.

Bob Macadoo · August 14, 2014

CEOs and the directors of publicly run corporations have their salaries disclosed. Private money is not enough of a justification. Also, CEO salaries are set by nominally independent compensation committees but these processes are heavily influenced by the CEO.

Are bands incorporated? Interesting premise. Who is on the board of directors that would determine that pay? The chief? Again....I say if their pay is less than the PMO policy wonks.....I'm not interested.

guyser · August 14, 2014

CEOs and the directors of publicly run corporations have their salaries disclosed.

Publically run...ok. The price of pork is way up, but may come down w the Russian standoff.

Private money is not enough of a justification.

So if Chief A oversees a large private company that generates a lot of money for the Band and gets bonuses etc, you want to know all about it?

Well thats nice, but....none of your business.

Also, CEO salaries are set by nominally independent compensation committees but these processes are heavily influenced by the CEO.

And Band councils set the pay rate for Chiefs. As was said before, Chief A cannot set his own pay independant of anyone else.

So, hows that Sunshine List and Fed list coming along? Found out what the cieling is for Civil pay ? Is it $100,000 or is it more like $200G or even more than $300G ?

TimG · August 14, 2014

So if Chief A oversees a large private company that generates a lot of money for the Band and gets bonuses etc, you want to know all about it?

Yes if he is paid as because he is Chief (i.e. he would lose the money if he quit). If it is just money he makes from investments then it is like any other private investment which is not disclosed (i.e. we don't know how much money Harper makes from RRSP investments nor do we need to know).

And Band councils set the pay rate for Chiefs. As was said before, Chief A cannot set his own pay independant of anyone else.

And the BOD sets the pay rates of CEOs but everyone knows the BODs frequently colludes with the CEO which is one of the reasons why the pay is public. Edited August 14, 2014 by TimG

guyser · August 14, 2014

If he is paid as because he is Chief - yes.

Ok , we are getting somewhere. And I will stop pretty soon since this tells me, emphatically of course, that your the type that want to embarass and harass FN's since none of his pay, from revenue generated by the Band's private interests is ANY of your business.

If it is just money he makes from investments then it is like any other private investment which is not disclosed (i.e. we don't know how much money Harper makes from RRSP investments nor do we need to know).

He makes private investments on behalf of the Band and Council (w COuncil input) and again, none of your effin business.

RRSP's? fine.

TimG · August 14, 2014

He makes private investments on behalf of the Band and Council (w COuncil input) and again, none of your effin business.

Does the band get money from the government? Does band collect "taxes" from residents? If the answer is yes to either of those questions then the public has a right to know. If an band chief wants to keep such things secret they can always choose to not draw a salary from government grants or taxes collected by the band. If the current rules required that income from all sources be reported then I agree that is unreasonable.

Of course it always helps to go to the source:

Q.5. Are band-owned businesses required to provide financial information under the Act?

A.5. The legislation does not require businesses owned by the band to publish their own detailed financial statements. Nor are individual government business entities required to publish detailed financial statements.

The Act requires that the audited consolidated financial statements of First Nation governments be prepared annually and disclosed to community members and the public. These audited consolidated financial statements include any entities controlled by the First Nation, such as band-owned businesses, in accordance with generally accepted accounting principles.

The audited consolidated financial statements are accompanied by a Schedule of Remuneration and Expenses, detailing any remuneration and reimbursement of expenses paid to chief and councillors (both in their capacity as chief or councillor and in their personal capacity) by any entity controlled by the First Nation, such as a band-owned business.

So it appears that only income from band owned businesses needs to be disclosed. If they have their own business then they do not need to disclose. This is fair because band owned businesses are like crown corporations. Edited August 14, 2014 by TimG

guyser · August 14, 2014

Oh now we are being dragged down in to squirrel land.

Does the band get money from the government?

Does any business get any money from the govt? Yes, they all do, incentives, tax breaks, program fees, job creation monies and so on.

My buddies private company gets employment relief in the form of grants and or the govt will pay some of the salary.

I told him you want to know, sorry...the public and you want to know what you make.

You should hear his reply. I will clean it up.

"Pound sand. "

Does band collect "taxes" from residents?

From income on the reserve? Nope.

If the answer is yes to either of those questions then the public has a right to know. If an band chief wants to keep such things secret they can always choose to not draw a salary from government grants or taxes collected by the band.

And again, you cant even keep your argument straight.

The salary part as made up from govt can and is (or will be when they all sign on) displayed, as for the rest let me make it clear...at least for you

NONE OF YOUR ****ING BUSINESS !

At least your intent is now made clear. You only want to embarass them.

TimG · August 14, 2014

Does any business get any money from the govt? Yes, they all do, incentives, tax breaks, program fees, job creation monies and so on.

So? Band owned corporations are not private companies. They are the equivalent to crown corporations. If a band chief has a private business he is NOT required to report income from it. This distinction is important.

If Canada Post paid Harper money would you claim that the public had no right to know?

Edited August 14, 2014 by TimG

Argus · August 14, 2014

Anyone curious about why the Harper govt raised the bar for reporting pay for high level civil servants ?

IY sure isnt anywhere near the sunshine list that exists in Ont.

Neat how you're trying to twist this away from politicians reporting their pay to public servants reporting their pay.

Why, I don't get. It seems you just don't believe native leaders should be held to the same standards as white leaders. Why is that?

Keepitsimple · August 15, 2014

Did i ever say that?

And to add, what business is it of ours if a Band Chief is paid $1M if $950,000 comes from revenue generated from the Band.

The Feds dont disclose all (incl dept heads) salaries, some of them very high, and why dont they? Ahh...protection of their own.

Now if they want to play fair, simple, disclose all salaries that result from the public trough.

My bottom line is this, the govt and various 'types' want nothing better than to piss off the FN's.

You show no respect for Band Chiefs and Councillors by lumping them in with janitors and stenographers (no offence). I - and others - agree that they have the same responsibility, accountability, and transparency as other leadership positions - such as Mayors and Councillors of cities and towns. Your arguments say that you disagree with that premise......so did you say so? Why not just tell us?

Edited August 15, 2014 by Keepitsimple

Argus · August 15, 2014

Did i ever say that?

And to add, what business is it of ours if a Band Chief is paid $1M if $950,000 comes from revenue generated from the Band.

The man you are so desperately defending didn't generate that income. He gave up the band's land claim in exchange for a fixed sum of money knowing he would get ten percent of it. If he were white you'd be screaming for a police investigation. But i guess conflicts of interest don't matter except to whites.

http://news.nationalpost.com/2014/08/12/kwikwetlem-chief-got-massive-sallary-in-part-by-abandoning-landclaim-and-taking-10-of-8m-payout/

Edited August 15, 2014 by Argus

guyser · August 15, 2014

So?

So? Geebus, get with it.

Heres why your 'so' is important.

You wrote "Does the band get money from the government? Does band collect "taxes" from residents? If the answer is yes to either of those questions then the public has a right to know."

So, by your own words, they got money so they should post up. But....goalposts got moved once again.

Please....stick them in the ground and back the F away from them. Tired of chasing them around.

Band owned corporations are not private companies.

A coporation , as far as the law is concerned, are legal persons, and have many of the same rights and responsibilities as natural people do .

They are the equivalent to crown corporations.

They are owned by the state? Uhh...nope.

guyser · August 15, 2014

Neat how you're trying to twist this away from politicians reporting their pay to public servants reporting their pay.

Neat how you suck at reading.

How you can be I dont get.

It seems you just don't believe native leaders should be held to the same standards as white leaders. Why is that?

LOL !

The same standards are not applied. And when right wing thinkers try to emabarass them, I speak up.

Either they all have salaries published or they dont.

Funny tho....why do HArpers boys and girls get a break at the $330g level, including the so called (here at least) movers and shakers at the top, yet they ant all the salaries published of FN's , even tho the vast majority of them make less than the average wage in Canada?

guyser · August 15, 2014

The man you are so desperately defending didn't generate that income. He gave up the band's land claim in exchange for a fixed sum of money knowing he would get ten percent of it.

Why yes he did.

He also took on his current job and the contract that was in place BEFORE HE WAS HIRED had the 10% clause included.

So of course, you being a union member, you are happy to deny others what is in a contract they inherited, unless of course it is your contract, why the crying could be heard for miles t'were it you !