-1=e^ipi Posted July 11, 2014 Report Posted July 11, 2014 While it is true that growth through immigration is not universally accepted by economists as the best path - it seems to me that the prevailing consensus favours it: not universally accepted = prevailing consensus? And there are more options beyond not have immigration vs have immigration. There is how much immigration to have? What types of immigrants should be chosen? etc. Quote
hitops Posted July 11, 2014 Report Posted July 11, 2014 Just to add....Who do you think is buying the house below yours (in price and area) thus allowing that person to scale up and buy a nicer house who then in turn THAT person makes an offer on yours? So if you have profitted lately , be thankful. Without any immigrants we would be looking at less value in our homes. This is not serious right? Canadian home over-valuation is our largest economic problem. It would be blessing for home values to fall, they would become affordable for people again. Our home values and NOT high because of immigrants, they are high because of cheap credit and a quasi-government agency (CHMC) which guarantees banks against mortgage defaults. Quote
guyser Posted July 11, 2014 Report Posted July 11, 2014 You are arguing that Canada wouldn't?Of course we wouldnt have them. Lol. I really laughed out loud at this one. Canada's university standards are high? What universe do you live in?Lets see.....Only the US (by a wide margin) Switz and UK had any in the top 20. Must be a fail then. Quote
guyser Posted July 11, 2014 Report Posted July 11, 2014 (edited) This is not serious right?Yes Canadian home over-valuation is our largest economic problem. It would be blessing for home values to fall, they would become affordable for people again. Our home values and NOT high because of immigrants, they are high because of cheap credit and a quasi-government agency (CHMC) which guarantees banks against mortgage defaults. We may be over valued, but how did that happen? If you are debating our homes would just rise becuase....then you are incorrect. In order for something to rise in price there has to be conditions for that. One of those is pressure, and pressure at the very low end fuels the chain right to the top Someone is buying the starter homes, and guess who overwhelmingly are buying the smaller homes in lower class neighbourhoods? Edited July 11, 2014 by Guyser2 Quote
Argus Posted July 11, 2014 Report Posted July 11, 2014 (edited) That's a set-up. Can we start with the advantage of economic growth instead ? In order to be of any benefit to the existing citizens of Canada, this 'economic growth' by way of immigration would have to improve the economic picture for them. I.e., if you have a larger pie but more people eating it because of newcomers, there is no benefit to existing eaters. Thus increases in GDP are of little consequence compared to things like the unemployment rate, cost of living, raises in real/family/disposable income. Edited July 11, 2014 by Argus Quote "A liberal is someone who claims to be open to all points of view — and then is surprised and offended to find there are other points of view.” William F Buckley
carepov Posted July 11, 2014 Report Posted July 11, 2014 yet still... it stands to reason doesn't it? WHAT ARE THE CONCRETE SPECIFIC STRENGTHS PROVIDED BY MULTICULTURALISM AND OR/DIVERSITY? again... we all we have pointed to so far is : ethnic food... just sayin' ... Your previous false claims are well-refuted by MH. You are the one that asked for real and measureable effects of Canadian multiculturalism. So far you have: -Sharia law discussions (no actual implementation) -Immigrants bring diseases (so do tourists) -Different languages being spoken is bad (?) -Vague economic arguments supported by the Fraser report that has been refuted -Immigrants are less educated than Canadians. False: "Overall, nearly two thirds of working-age (25-64 years) immigrants (65%) had a postsecondary diploma or degree, 6 percentage points higher than their Canadian-born counterparts. Immigrants were more likely than the Canadian-born to have a bachelor’s degree or university certificate or diploma above the bachelor level as their highest educational attainment. The concentration in higher education is more obvious for recent cohorts." http://www.cic.gc.ca/English/resources/research/education.asp I will flip your claim and say, immigration and multiculturalism is making Canada a more educated society: -on average, immigrants know more about our history, geography and government than the average Canadian. Look it up if you don't believe me. -IMO, on average, people that know speak more than one language are smarter than those that speak only one language http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cognitive_advantages_of_bilingualism Immigration is also helping to reduce crime in Canada -crime is linked with education -immigrants from the largest source countries are under-represented in our prisons Quote
Argus Posted July 11, 2014 Report Posted July 11, 2014 Are you seriously arguing that there's no white Anglo enclaves? What I'm attempting to do is point out the disingenuousness of two contradictory beliefs evidenced by immigration enthusiasts. 1. It's perfectly normal for people from other countries to want to live among people who are like them (like calls to like was your statement, I believe) where people are of their culture and speak their language. 2. Any English Canadian who feels such things is a xenophobic bigot, probably a racist, and should be expelled from Canada. So naturally, immigration enthusiasts NEVER feel such things. Quote "A liberal is someone who claims to be open to all points of view — and then is surprised and offended to find there are other points of view.” William F Buckley
hitops Posted July 11, 2014 Report Posted July 11, 2014 (edited) Yes We may be over valued, but how did that happen? If you are debating our homes would just rise becuase....then you are incorrect. In order for something to rise in price there has to be conditions for that. One of those is pressure, and pressure at the very low end fuels the chain right to the top Someone is buying the starter homes, and guess who overwhelmingly are buying the smaller homes in lower class neighbourhoods? You're right immigrants will buy starter homes. That's irrelevant to whether we should have lots of immigration. If they don't buy them, local poor people or young people starting out buy them. Just like they always have. The market easily adjusts for that. If there are fewer buyers, prices fall in every class, so it's a wash. The issue today is that our homes are ridiculously over-valued. This is not from immigrants, it's because the CMHC and BOC have made it possible for anyone with a pulse to borrow enormous sums that will put them in debt for life. This was done by removing the natural risk of lending, and putting that risk on the taxpayer. Homes have doubled in value in most of the country. Immigration did not double. What changed was the CMHC rules (allowed 40 year, no money down) and the BOC (dropped interest rates to historic lows). Edited July 11, 2014 by hitops Quote
Argus Posted July 11, 2014 Report Posted July 11, 2014 (edited) While it is true that growth through immigration is not universally accepted by economists as the best path - it seems to me that the prevailing consensus favours it: http://www.theglobeandmail.com/report-on-business/economy/economy-lab/for-canada-immigration-is-a-key-to-prosperity/article14711281/ The prevailing consensus depends on what kind of immigrants a country takes. Even the OECD report concludes that "labour market outcomes of migrants from different world regions vary greatly and that these differences are fairly consistent across OECD destinations." Ie, labour market participation is lower and unemployment is higher for immigrants from the middle east, Asia and Africa. The unemployment rate for European immigrants to Canada (table 2.1) was 5.9% in 2012, better than that of native born Canadians. By contrast, it was 9% for Asia and the middle east (note that from other information I've cited from stats canada the numbers vary widely within this broad region). The unemployment rate for African immirants was 12.8%. Edited July 11, 2014 by Argus Quote "A liberal is someone who claims to be open to all points of view — and then is surprised and offended to find there are other points of view.” William F Buckley
Argus Posted July 11, 2014 Report Posted July 11, 2014 I have to say one of the main reasons I've always come down on the side of immigrants is that it pisses off so many conservatives. It's a cheap political thrill I know but there are so few left in this overtly right wing world we live in we have to enjoy then when and where we can. You realize how childish that sounds, I hope. Quote "A liberal is someone who claims to be open to all points of view — and then is surprised and offended to find there are other points of view.” William F Buckley
Argus Posted July 11, 2014 Report Posted July 11, 2014 You're wrong because you want to stifle people's freedom to communicate with each other in whatever language they choose. I can think of a few countries that wouldn't want you to speak in English in public with your other English-speaking friends/family. None of those would I want to emulate. That is a pretty nutty interpretation of what I've said. Quote "A liberal is someone who claims to be open to all points of view — and then is surprised and offended to find there are other points of view.” William F Buckley
Argus Posted July 11, 2014 Report Posted July 11, 2014 thats why English Canadians also live together and some of them, like you, want to keep others out. It's pretty hypocritical when you ask why immigrants keep together in one breath, while complaining about their presence in the next. No, what's hypocrtical is you finding this perfectly acceptable in newcomers but sneering at the same sorts of normal behavior in native born Canadians. Quote "A liberal is someone who claims to be open to all points of view — and then is surprised and offended to find there are other points of view.” William F Buckley
Argus Posted July 11, 2014 Report Posted July 11, 2014 Born citizens aren't tested on those things, while naturalized citizens are. I would bet money on the fact that MANY Canadians couldn't pass the citizenship test because they don't have the knowledge they would need of our history, culture, and government. You think the Citizenship test is a good indication of how much of a Canadian you are? Quote "A liberal is someone who claims to be open to all points of view — and then is surprised and offended to find there are other points of view.” William F Buckley
Argus Posted July 11, 2014 Report Posted July 11, 2014 Here is another real benefit to multiculturalism: http://www.folklorama.ca/ Folklore festivals paid for by liquor boards? Quote "A liberal is someone who claims to be open to all points of view — and then is surprised and offended to find there are other points of view.” William F Buckley
Argus Posted July 11, 2014 Report Posted July 11, 2014 There are many things that we can learn from speaking to immigrants on the reasons they are in Canada. What if they don't speak English? How much are you going to learn from speaking to them then? Quote "A liberal is someone who claims to be open to all points of view — and then is surprised and offended to find there are other points of view.” William F Buckley
Michael Hardner Posted July 11, 2014 Report Posted July 11, 2014 This is a very important example, because it shows how the type of person you let in matters. The Asians that come here are very often for professional or technical expertise, and so you are selecting our the professional class to a large extent. "type of person" is a consideration but the first discussion would be how to find impactful and significant definitions of "types". It's not possible if the dialogue isn't better, IMO. This is not a coincidence, being very choosy is important in maintaining prosperity. It may be a coincidence, though. Considering one factor limits your approach. Currently they are working hard at destroying that; just letting in anyone who can make it across the border, launching massive social projects, printing trillions of dollars, emphasizing skin color/cultural/religion differences for voter exploitation, etc. The onus is on you to prove that the US is acting to achieve that goal (for some strange reason) and that these things have happened, and that they have contributed to some decline, and to show the decline. Too bad that at the end you post turned into another general lament about the US on a Canadian board. Edited: *Please do me a favour and reply all at once to my posts* The problem is that most people who are advocating for equality, are actually advocating for special treatment. The example given was religious tribunals - which was given to Christians and Jews already. In other words, in order to make everyone more 'equal', some people need special treatment. That's not equality, it's the furthest thing from it. No example given, so this is just a fancy castle, built in the air, on windy words. PA is absolutely right that immigrants have higher rates of hazardous infectious diseases. I'm not sure why you would want to debate that, it's well known and easy to find data on it. That doesn't mean they are bad people, it's just the reality of where they come from in many cases. What's the risk from immigration ? I didn't wade through his link farm after reading the first little bit of his dodgy post. I also question you claim about Canada's university standards. What? If you can pull a 60 or 70 in high school, just about any uni will accept you in SOME program. You would have to seriously be a moron to find no Canadian uni that would take you. http://www.macleans.ca/education/uniandcollege/average-entering-grade-now-85/ MacLeans article - average entering grade is now 85% - a 2% increase over 5 years. Quote Click to learn why Climate Change is caused by HUMANS Michael Hardner
Argus Posted July 11, 2014 Report Posted July 11, 2014 Am I less Canadian than the rest of you? I was born here and have spent my whole life here, rarely leaving the country except for short vacations. My parents were born in Canada, and most of their parents, except for one, who was born in Scotland and came here as a child. I fairly strongly identify as being Scottish in addition to being Canadian. Canada, in fact, could be said to be the most Scottish country in the World outside of Scotland. But Scotland is not Canada, and I was wondering if my being Scottish and Canadian makes me a defective Canadian somehow. Only to Jacee Quote "A liberal is someone who claims to be open to all points of view — and then is surprised and offended to find there are other points of view.” William F Buckley
Michael Hardner Posted July 11, 2014 Report Posted July 11, 2014 I am on the fence at the moment as I come from the position that multioculturalism is a strength... I'm just looking for arguments, because in debates with people who take the opposing views... I invariably fail to produce anything substantive... (again, above ethnic cuisine). Really ? You're on the fence ? Didn't you post something about damaging the social fabric ? How could you be on the fence ? instead of listing some examples, you went ahead and simply rejected every argument I had heard and reproduced here, while offering none to substantiate the position that multiculturalism is a great strength... The point has been already made that multiculturalism fosters social cohesion in a country that has high immigration. posts of low quality? you keep asking for sources for my pretty common knowledge statements... I would say they're common biases. If they're not astonishing or extreme then cite them. You did move goalposts - I already explained to you how once. anyways... I already sense a good deal of resentment and emotional outrage on your part... called me a liar, that sets up strawmen arguments and that is "anti" this and that and the other thing... I didn't call you a liar, or do I have any emotional reaction unless indifference is an emotion now. I pointed out the economic benefits of immigration. Canada has high immigration and multiculturalism fosters that policy. Quote Click to learn why Climate Change is caused by HUMANS Michael Hardner
dre Posted July 11, 2014 Report Posted July 11, 2014 You're right immigrants will buy starter homes. That's irrelevant to whether we should have lots of immigration. If they don't buy them, local poor people or young people starting out buy them. Just like they always have. The market easily adjusts for that. If there are fewer buyers, prices fall in every class, so it's a wash. The issue today is that our homes are ridiculously over-valued. This is not from immigrants, it's because the CMHC and BOC have made it possible for anyone with a pulse to borrow enormous sums that will put them in debt for life. This was done by removing the natural risk of lending, and putting that risk on the taxpayer. Homes have doubled in value in most of the country. Immigration did not double. What changed was the CMHC rules (allowed 40 year, no money down) and the BOC (dropped interest rates to historic lows). The thing is if we didnt have immigration our population would be receding so there would be little new housing starts if any. Our standard of life is support in part by the fact we are always building to accomodate an increasing population. Houses, apartment buildings, roads, bridges, retail stores, etc etc. A whole lot of us make our livings from this activity. In addition to that, in order to provide public services the government is borrowing against the assumption that the population will keep growing, and that tax revenues will keep increasing. The debt money system is basically a ponzi scheme, and tomorrows tax payers are going to be asked to pay OUR bills today. In other words the government has already BANKED and BORROWED against the expectation that the number of tax payers will increase by a couple of percent per year indefinately... which is exactly why they let in the ammount of immigrants that they do. Quote I question things because I am human. And call no one my father who's no closer than a stranger
dre Posted July 11, 2014 Report Posted July 11, 2014 You realize how childish that sounds, I hope. About as childish as your constant rants and generalizations about "the left" and "liberals" maybe? Quote I question things because I am human. And call no one my father who's no closer than a stranger
Michael Hardner Posted July 11, 2014 Report Posted July 11, 2014 In order to be of any benefit to the existing citizens of Canada, this 'economic growth' by way of immigration would have to improve the economic picture for them. I.e., if you have a larger pie but more people eating it because of newcomers, there is no benefit to existing eaters. You're edging close to the 'fixed pie fallacy' here. The pie is big enough to handle more eaters, ie. there's economic value to this arrangement. Thus increases in GDP are of little consequence compared to things like the unemployment rate, cost of living, raises in real/family/disposable income. GDP and income are linked. Unemployment rates and cost of living are related to a bunch of economic factors, not just immigration. Quote Click to learn why Climate Change is caused by HUMANS Michael Hardner
PoliticalAtheist Posted July 11, 2014 Report Posted July 11, 2014 Your previous false claims are well-refuted by MH. You are the one that asked for real and measureable effects of Canadian multiculturalism. So far you have: -Sharia law discussions (no actual implementation) -Immigrants bring diseases (so do tourists) -Different languages being spoken is bad (?) -Vague economic arguments supported by the Fraser report that has been refuted -Immigrants are less educated than Canadians. False: "Overall, nearly two thirds of working-age (25-64 years) immigrants (65%) had a postsecondary diploma or degree, 6 percentage points higher than their Canadian-born counterparts. Immigrants were more likely than the Canadian-born to have a bachelor’s degree or university certificate or diploma above the bachelor level as their highest educational attainment. The concentration in higher education is more obvious for recent cohorts." http://www.cic.gc.ca/English/resources/research/education.asp I will flip your claim and say, immigration and multiculturalism is making Canada a more educated society: -on average, immigrants know more about our history, geography and government than the average Canadian. Look it up if you don't believe me. -IMO, on average, people that know speak more than one language are smarter than those that speak only one language http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cognitive_advantages_of_bilingualism Immigration is also helping to reduce crime in Canada -crime is linked with education -immigrants from the largest source countries are under-represented in our prisons no so far we have a rejection out of hand of the fraser report... I've seen no refutation whatsoever... discussion on sharia law (considering it is bad enough no?) dyou think that contemplating in one way or another the introduction of sharia type law is good and a benefit of our policy of multiculturalism? -tourists ALSO bring diseases ( again... are you listing this as an argument of strength for diversity?) -did I say being bilingual is bad? different languages aren't bad... but when its to the point where english literacy recedes and that it gives way to language barriers... (wait a minute are you saying language barriers are good?) - vague economic arguemnts?! http://www.fraserinstitute.org/uploadedFiles/fraser-ca/Content/research-news/research/publications/immigration-and-the-canadian-welfare-state-2011.pdf uses federal economic statistics... and census data ... its pretty unambiguous that the report draws from simple statements of fact... just saying its bogus.... doesn't make that an argument... -immigrants less educated than canadians... well read you own source: "Their employment and unemployment rates and their earnings are, in general, substantially lower from those of native-born Canadians"... "The difficulties faced by immigrants have been attributed to several factors. One is the low rate of recognition of their credentials (Ferrer and Riddell 2004, and Green and Worswick 2004), which is partly reflected in the large proportion with university degrees in jobs with low educational requirements, such as retail sales clerks, truck drivers, office clerks, cashiers and taxi drivers. In 2006, 28% of recent immigrant men and 40% of women held this kind of employment (Chart A) compared with 10% and 12% of native-born Canadians." so yes they come here with bogus medical degrees from egypt... and end up driving taxis... and btw... NONSENSE: immgrants CANNOT be linked to lower crime rates... because canada does not keep any racial crime stats.... so anybody saying so is selling snake oil. Especially when we consider the clues we get from our MSM: in 2006 when there was an epidemic of gun violence... 47 out of the 68 gun murders were committed by one ethnic group alone: Jamaicans. I suspect rates aren,t much different elsewhere... but without ethnic or race based stats... we have victimization census data as the only reliable source of info... but yeah: http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto-murders-drop-after-jamaica-based-gang-crackdown-1.1132109 http://www.thestar.com/news/crime/2014/06/30/gta_police_arrest_jamaican_man_sought_in_41_murders.html http://news.nationalpost.com/2012/02/24/graphic-where-are-torontos-murders-happening/ Crime is linked with education... ok... why do we import populations from again: Haiti, Jamaica, south america, sub saharan africa etc with very low levels of education then? Aren't we by the same token importing crime by your logic? anyways... again you listed nothing to support the notion that MULTICULTURALISM IS A SOURCE OF STRENGTH AND BENEFITS CANADA. Quote
Argus Posted July 11, 2014 Report Posted July 11, 2014 (edited) In the US, we know that people of Asian descent outperform whites, That does not seem to be the case for Canada. Note the vast difference in earnings between immigrants from source countries like the UK, US, and Germany and immigrants from Asia. http://global-economics.ca/empin_immigrant_region.htm Edited July 11, 2014 by Argus Quote "A liberal is someone who claims to be open to all points of view — and then is surprised and offended to find there are other points of view.” William F Buckley
Michael Hardner Posted July 11, 2014 Report Posted July 11, 2014 Ie, labour market participation is lower and unemployment is higher for immigrants from the middle east, Asia and Africa. There are other factors that could be significant too. What if a statistical analysis showed that gay males do better than other groups - would we then fast-track gay males into Canada ? If we're talking utility here, then why should country or religion alone be considered. Quote Click to learn why Climate Change is caused by HUMANS Michael Hardner
Argus Posted July 11, 2014 Report Posted July 11, 2014 Just to add....Who do you think is buying the house below yours (in price and area) thus allowing that person to scale up and buy a nicer house who then in turn THAT person makes an offer on yours? There are two sides to inflated housing costs. It helps existing homeowners by increasing the value of their investment, but it makes it extremely difficult for lower income people to buy their own homes without going way out into the burbs and spending forever commuting. Those long commutes cost us in terms of wasted time and fuel, and require increasing investments for infrastructure/transportation. Quote "A liberal is someone who claims to be open to all points of view — and then is surprised and offended to find there are other points of view.” William F Buckley
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