Guilty In Canada For Bribery – In India

[Big Guy]

A Canadian named Nazir Karigar has just been convicted in Ottawa and sentenced (3 years) for a crime of bribery – in India. This is a landmark case since this is the first individual convicted in this manner. No doubt that it will be appealed.

This sets a dangerous precedent for using the Canadian justice system to convict and sentence a person for a crime in another country.

Why are we dealing with crimes perpetrated in other countries. If there was any merit to a case then we would send them back for processing there. Why have things changed?

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/national/ottawa-man-handed-three-year-sentence-in-landmark-bribery-case/article18819841/

[TimG]

This sets a dangerous precedent for using the Canadian justice system to convict and sentence a person for a crime in another country.

That ship has sailed long ago. Canadians can be charged with sexual offices against a child even if the offences occurred in another country. Charging citizens for bribes given in another country makes sense because the court systems in countries that allow bribes are often corrupt.

[guyser]

This sets a dangerous precedent for using the Canadian justice system to convict and sentence a person for a crime in another country.

Was it though?

The crimes started here with his colluding with the company to bribe Indian officials to get the contract.

Why have things changed?

They haven't.

In your link...."Three companies have been convicted under the Act during the past decade"

Are you aware that we have other laws that can convict one for sex tourism committed in another country? (think Thailand and young people with guys going there to misbehave)

ETA Ahh I see TimG beat me to the punch by a few minutes

Edited May 23, 2014 by Guyser2

[Big Guy]

That ship has sailed long ago. Canadians can be charged with sexual offices against a child even if the offences occurred in another country. Charging citizens for bribes given in another country makes sense because the court systems in countries that allow bribes are often corrupt.

But there are countries where bribes are the accepted cost of doing business. Should we penalize companies, and especially Canadians, for trying to stay competitive by just paying the cost (bribes) for doing business?

[guyser]

Bribes occur everywhere . The hard part is finding how they do it .

That said, this one was probably pretty agregious , but aside from that, it was planned here in Canada with Canucks involved.

[TimG]

But there are countries where bribes are the accepted cost of doing business. Should we penalize companies, and especially Canadians, for trying to stay competitive by just paying the cost (bribes) for doing business?

The entire point of laws against bribery by taking the decision out of the hands of people trying to do business. i.e. a third world official may ask for a bribe but the agent of a western company can say I cannot because I would face charges in my own country. That is why all western countries charge citizens for bribes made in other countries. In the short term they will lose business but in the long term the demand for bribes will go down. Edited May 23, 2014 by TimG

[eyeball]

Should we penalize companies, and especially Canadians, for trying to stay competitive...?

No, we should throw them in prison for breaking the law.

[Peter F]

But there are countries where bribes are the accepted cost of doing business. Should we penalize companies, and especially Canadians, for trying to stay competitive by just paying the cost (bribes) for doing business?

Yes we should. Encouraging corruption is not a good idea. It should be discouraged. This law, and this sentence, does that. Its a good thing.

Cryptometrics should perhaps actually try employing some entrepreneurial and managerial skill to be competitive.

Imagine the harm caused to Air India should the bribery have succeeded and continued.

[overthere]

It is hard to imagine a significant business deal in India, China, Pakistan, Indonesia etc etc that does not involve corruption.

But as noted, all Western countires have criminal codes that punish bribing overseas.

Edited May 23, 2014 by overthere

[dre]

But there are countries where bribes are the accepted cost of doing business. Should we penalize companies, and especially Canadians, for trying to stay competitive by just paying the cost (bribes) for doing business?

Most definately. We could have a debate about whether or not our own courts should even have jurrisdiction to hear such a case, but if they DO... Then obviously the its Canadian law that should be applied.

Was that even a real question?

[overthere]

Most definately. We could have a debate about whether or not our own courts should even have jurrisdiction to hear such a case, but if they DO... Then obviously the its Canadian law that should be applied.

Was that even a real question?

Our courts are the only jurisdiction where any coherent action could take place, since the countries that are corrupt also tend to have a severely bent set of judges too.

[On Guard for Thee]

I worked for some time for a rather large American oil company in Africa. Because I had the authority to sign contracts for them, I was required to sit through a course given be a company lawyer on the "Foreigh Corrupt Practices Act" Essentially it said anything you do while working for an American company will be deemed to have been done on American soil, and therefore the same legal consequences apply. It was very interesting and revealing in terms of just how easy you can step over "the line" without even knowing it. What was also interesting was while talking privately with the lawyer he revealed that the company actuarials had figured out that the cost of providing these courses would be offset by the reduction of fines levied by courts when the inevitable corruption cases came to be, because the company had done due diligence by educating their people.

[eyeball]

It is hard to imagine a significant business deal in India, China, Pakistan, Indonesia etc etc that does not involve corruption.

Then we shouldn't be doing business with them, at all, until they clean up their acts. Such is the way that dictatorships are made and maintained and whatever good influence that is gleaned from doing business with us is lost or worse when our business culture is counter-infected with corrupt ethics.

But as noted, all Western countires have criminal codes that punish bribing overseas.

Finally, barely and better late than never I suppose although I suspect so much damage has been done that combined with other significant fracture lines of dysfunction in our economy, environmental degradation above all else, that we might have tipped a point or two.

Edited May 23, 2014 by eyeball

[overthere]

Then we shouldn't be doing business with them, at all, until they clean up their acts. Such is the way that dictatorships are made and maintained and whatever good influence that is gleaned from doing business with us is lost or worse when our business culture is counter-infected with corrupt ethics.

If only the world was that black and white.

India and Indonesia, for example, are not dictatorships. India is in IMO the greatest democracy on earth.

Our Canadian influence on their culture is nil and they would laugh in our faces about the Pollyannish notion that we are somehow pure as the driven snow. They'd point out- for example- that the recent global recession that essentially collapsed the global economy was the result of profound greed, lack of regulation/oversight and corruption in Western banks operating under Western laws in Western countries, and very very few people went to jail anywhere for that little buntoss.

Our corruption is not smaller, just less distributed.

[eyeball]

If only the world was that black and white.

There's no good reason for it not to be, in any case the world is what we make it, corrupt for a good part.

India and Indonesia, for example, are not dictatorships. India is in IMO the greatest democracy on earth.

Our Canadian influence on their culture is nil and they would laugh in our faces about the Pollyannish notion that we are somehow pure as the driven snow.

So they should, it's actually us that's bought into this notion and sold ourselves out in the process. It's been a doctrine of sorts at least since Chretien that exposure to our ways would cause authoritarian societies to open up become more democratic and become more like us. What's been overlooked to this day was the two way street that's become.

They'd point out- for example- that the recent global recession that essentially collapsed the global economy was the result of profound greed, lack of regulation/oversight and corruption in Western banks operating under Western laws in Western countries, and very very few people went to jail anywhere for that little buntoss.

Points to evidence of what I'm talking about I think. The breadth and scope of corruption has grown with globalization.

Our corruption is not smaller, just less distributed.

Less distributive too.

[Big Guy]

If you can consider bribes as providing added incentives to decision makers for business purposes then we do that all the time. Federal governments do that with selected grants. On a municipal level, when a company is looking to establish in an area a bidding war starts. One municipality will offer energy deals and/or tax concessions even to the point of giving the company land for free to locate there.

On a global scale in a global economy the competition forces people to compete on a level field if they are to be successful. There are countries whose government structure accepts the idea of bribes. I have been told that to do any kind of business you have to pay bribes.

An interesting comparison can be found at;

http://cpi.transparency.org/cpi2013/results/

I do not think that Canada should pay an economical price to try to stifle business practices that are acceptable to many potential markets.

Remember that vast emerging market in China that we are trying to tap into?

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2013-11-21/china-s-bribery-culture-poses-risks-for-multinationals.html

Edited May 24, 2014 by Big Guy

[eyeball]

Well, all I can say is if the race to the bottom in terms of virtually everything really is on, then we might as well treat every rule that is side-stepped abroad yet is imposed at home is an impediment and a hurdle to ordinary Canadians - probably intended to tilt some playing field or another towards the extraordinary - privileged insiders and other influential recipients of official undersight.

Only one Golden Rule need apply; Don't Get Caught. Should be easy enough in this day and age.

[overthere]

Well, all I can say is if the race to the bottom in terms of virtually everything really is on, then we might as well treat every rule that is side-stepped abroad yet is imposed at home is an impediment and a hurdle to ordinary Canadians - probably intended to tilt some playing field or another towards the extraordinary - privileged insiders and other influential recipients of official undersight.

Only one Golden Rule need apply; Don't Get Caught. Should be easy enough in this day and age.

You are overlooking the other side of what happens when somebody in Canada or US or Yurp gets busted for bribing people elsewhere: the people who took the bribe elsewhere also get caught. Not just caught, but exposed in their home countries doing something that will likely get them jailed there.

If the light of international exposure in a specific- not institutional- case shines on a local, it is a positive thing. 20 years ago it would be brushed aside but now the Internet insures that everybody knows who got what.

Getting caught matters at both ends of the bribe.

[eyeball]

Okay, I get the crocodile tears - honesty is for self-righteous sphincters.

Nobody wants to be a sphincter.

[overthere]

I don't get the whining.

Clearly the threat of jail time and other penalties from being convicted domestically for international bribery has an effect on the actions of Western corporations. Actually the specific effect is on the persons who run those corporations, which is far more effective. In many cases it will have an effect on the personal lives of those who receive the bribes too. It is a positive start and a vast improvement over past practices globally.

I suspect nothing less than a complete turnaround in the nature of humanity would be enough for some though.

[eyeball]

I bet there's lots of whining going on behind closed doors right now. I doubt this will have much effect on the actions of wealthy powerful people at all.

[overthere]

I bet there's lots of whining going on behind closed doors right now. I doubt this will have much effect on the actions of wealthy powerful people at all.

of course it has an impact on wealthy powerful people here and elsewhere in the West. At the very least, they have to be careful about what happens in their foreign business, because it can have a really crappy effect on their own lives .

In the countries that take bribes, it has a trickle down effect in business. It's a start.

I can tell you that corruption cases are in the news in India every day. If a Canadian doing business there got busted for bribery, there'd be an endless stream of stories tracking down who got hwat on the Indian end.

Without our bribery laws, that would be much more unlikely.

It isn't a solution, but its a start in getting our own house in order.

Next we'll help you with global poverty and whirled peas.

[eyeball]

I think I'll wait until we see what sort of effort is put into investigating, charging, prosecuting and punishing corrupt business class people, real and or corporate. This seems as white-collar crime as it gets which despite its overall costs and threat to our society and economy usually gets a virtual free pass compared to all the crackin' down and gettin' tough that's focused on blue-collar crime.

[Big Guy]

I do not think that it is the role of Canadian business to try to change the morals and ethics of the rest of the world. I know there are mutual funds and other investments which will only invest in firms which satisfy an agenda be it ecology or child labour or...

What I expect from my investments that they get the best yield possible. If I want to support any particular initiative then I am free to do so with the profits from those investments. To start charging Canadians from doing business abroad by the accepted and competitive ethical norms (bribes) puts them at a financial disadvantage.

As I said earlier, I do not think that it is the role of Canadian business to try to change the morals and ethics of the rest of the world.

But that is just my opinion and apparently a minority one.

[eyeball]

It's not about changing the morals and ethics of others, its about preventing having these ethics being downloaded into our economy like a maliocious virus. We immerse ourselves in the same fetid swamp at our peril.

But that said, if I could get a fishing licence by simply paying off some bureaucrat, who the hell am I to argue? I guess I could learn to hold my nose too. Come on in, the water's just fine so long as you don't mind the sweet smell of shit.

I think Canadian business' that behave like this abroad deserve no more respect than a Canadian sex tourist to be perfectly honest.