Taiwan is part of China!

[WWWTT]

Time to set the record straight here in it's own rightful thread!

Lots of posters here just don't really get it.

First, lets start with a history lesson.

http://ri.search.yahoo.com/_ylt=A0LEVi7ysVFT3FsAWG0XFwx.;_ylu=X3oDMTByMG04Z2o2BHNlYwNzcgRwb3MDMQRjb2xvA2JmMQR2dGlkAw--/RV=2/RE=1397891699/RO=10/RU=http%3a%2f%2fen.wikipedia.org%2fwiki%2fHistory_of_Taiwan/RK=0/RS=qbMyVQKgTaS.MqxPUy4MEW96Fy4-

And lets move on straight to the giant nail in the coffin of those who believe there are two separate Chinese countries shall we:

The United States and Taiwan enjoy a robust unofficial relationship. The 1979 U.S.-P.R.C. Joint Communique switched diplomatic recognition from Taipei to Beijing. In the Joint Communique, the United States recognized the Government of the People's Republic of China as the sole legal government of China, acknowledging the Chinese position that there is but one China and Taiwan is part of China

Comment was taken from this link.

http://ri.search.yahoo.com/_ylt=A0LEViH2slFTviIAqsYXFwx.;_ylu=X3oDMTBya3R2ZmV1BHNlYwNzcgRwb3MDNARjb2xvA2JmMQR2dGlkAw--/RV=2/RE=1397891958/RO=10/RU=http%3a%2f%2fwww.state.gov%2fr%2fpa%2fei%2fbgn%2f35855.htm/RK=0/RS=x30MHQQ0M8.fgAA_i5fgyYoKC7g-

I don't understand the argument that some people here have???

And I believe that this is because some do not understand the culture.

Macau and Hong Kong for many centuries were politically separated, but eventually re united because the people in those regions always believed they were Chinese first!

Taiwan will eventually politically rejoin with the rest of their family.

WWWTT

[TimG]

I don't understand the argument that some people here have???

It is not clear what some diplomatic double speak penned to keep the depots running Beijing from throwing a fit has to do with reality?

Taiwan is an independent sovereign country. Laws passed in Beijing have no force in Taipei. Everyone understands that and that is the only metric that matters when it comes to determining who is a separate country.

Hong Kong and Macau were colonies that were given to China because it was politically beneficial for the countries controlling these colonies to do so. It has nothing to do with whether these colonies wanted to be returned to China. If Hong Kong had been given a choice they likely would have become an independent city state.

Taiwan has absolutely nothing to gain by uniting with the mainland and a lot to lose so the chances of them agreeing to such a move is next to zero. It is not even worth saying they will "eventually be united". That would only happen if Beijing invades (a possibility that cannot be ruled out).

Lastly, you clearly don't understand that China is a polyglot of cultures much like Europe (which is surprising given your claims of first hand knowledge of the culture). People from Hong Kong or Taiwan have as much in common with people from Beijing as Spanish or Italians have in common with the Germans or Dutch. Cantonese cannot really be called the same language as Mandarin.

http://world.time.com/2012/01/24/trouble-down-south-why-hong-kong-and-mainland-chinese-arent-getting-along/

A University of Hong Kong public-opinion poll that has been conducted every six months since 1997 measures the number of Hong Kong residents who identify as Hong Kong citizens, Chinese citizens or some combination of the two. In the latest survey, released in December, the number of respondents identifying themselves first and foremost as Hong Kong citizens was the highest in 10 years, while the number who saw themselves primarily as Chinese sank to a 12-year low.

Edited April 18, 2014 by TimG

[WWWTT]

It is not clear what some diplomatic double speak penned to keep the depots running Beijing from throwing a fit has to do with reality?

Taiwan is an independent sovereign country. Laws passed in Beijing have no force in Taipei. Everyone understands that and that is the only metric that matters when it comes to determining who is a separate country.

Except the US government does not recognize the independent Taiwan, only recognizes Beijing as being the capital of China and that Taiwan is part of China.

So tell me TimG, what is it that you don't understand about the US government's position? Do you know better about how to recognize a country than the US government?

As far as Hong Kong goes, it doesn't really matter now because the previous landlord's lease expired and their history!

I was in Macau last month and the mainland is taking over with open arms from the people in Macau welcoming their gambling RMB's!

WWWTT

[TimG]

Except the US government does not recognize the independent Taiwan, only recognizes Beijing as being the capital of China and that Taiwan is part of China.

I find it hard to believe that you are really blind to the political reasons for the US official position. If the US really believed that Taiwan was part of China it would not have committed to defending Taiwan if faced with an invasion by the mainland.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taiwan_Relations_Act

The Taiwan Relations Act potentially requires the U.S. to intervene militarily if the PRC attacks or invades Taiwan. The act states that "the United States will make available to Taiwan such defense articles and defense services in such quantity as may be necessary to enable Taiwan to maintain a sufficient self-defense capabilities”. However, the decision about the nature and quantity of defense services that America will provide to Taiwan is to be determined by the President and Congress. America's policy has been called "strategic ambiguity" and it is designed to dissuade Taiwan from a unilateral declaration of independence, and to dissuade the PRC from unilaterally unifying Taiwan with the PRC.

IOW - as far as the US is concerned Taiwan is an independent country that needs protection from China but it has a adopted an official "one-china" policy to placate the immature despots running Beijing and to reduce the likelihood of a shooting war over the situation.

Edited April 19, 2014 by TimG

[WWWTT]

I don't understand why you didn't read the link you provided, since it clearly states that Taiwan is part of China and the US recognizes the one country, two systems concept of the Chinese!

Taken from your link:

The Three-Noes Policy (Chinese: 三不政策) is a policy in the 1980s maintained by President Chiang Ching-kuo of the Republic of China, commonly known as "Taiwan", in response to the People’s Republic of China's attempts to have direct contact with the ROC (see Three Links). When the United States broke diplomatic ties with the ROC in 1979, the PRC believed that it had complete leverage in convincing the ROC government to talk. President Chiang Ching-kuo refused, reiterating that there were to be “no contact, no compromise, and no negotiation” (不接觸不談判不妥協) with the Chinese Communists.

The hijacking of a China Airlines cargo plane on May 3, 1986 shattered the "Three Noes" policy. The pilot Wang Shi-chuen subdued the two other members of the flight crew and commandeered the plane to Guangzhou, forcing the ROC government to publicly send unofficial envoys to negotiate in Hong Kong with PRC officials over the return of the plane and the flight crew. The pilot, credited by the PRC for reestablishing contact between mainland China and Taiwan, received a hero’s welcome in mainland China and became a senior PRC aviation official as well as serving as a so-called "Taiwanese delegate" to PRC government institutions.

During this time, many mainland China-born ROC armed forces veterans pressed President Chiang Ching-kuo to allow family reunions between the mainland Chinese who settled in Taiwan after the Chinese Civil War and their relatives in mainland China. President Chiang relented in 1987, authorizing the ROC Red Cross to issue permits allowing people from Taiwan to travel to Chinese Mainland only for family reunions. This started the regular civilian and unofficial exchanges between the PRC and the ROC that continues to progress to this day.

Sorry my friend, but the relation of Taiwan/China is no different than East/West Germany. They will reunite.

WWWTT

[WWWTT]

I do agree that the US is protecting Taiwan.

The US is also protecting the Mainland from Taiwan!

WWWTT

[TimG]

I don't understand why you didn't read the link you provided, since it clearly states that Taiwan is part of China and the US recognizes the one country, two systems concept of the Chinese!

The entire 'one china' policy is nothing but a phony ruse used to placate the immature idiots running Beijing.

Everyone in the US government knows this.

Sorry my friend, but the relation of Taiwan/China is no different than East/West Germany. They will reunite.

Actually, well East Germany used to be part of Germany. China has never controlled all of Taiwan. It was Dutch colony for years followed by Japan and then got its independence after WW2.

Like I said, the only way they will unite is if the mainland invades and wins because Taiwanese are not interested.

There will never be a peaceful unification.

Edited April 19, 2014 by TimG

[WWWTT]

The entire 'one china' policy is nothing but a phony ruse used to placate the immature idiots running Beijing.

Everyone in the US government knows this.

Actually, well East Germany used to be part of Germany. China has never controlled all of Taiwan. It was Dutch colony for years followed by Japan and then got its independence after WW2.

Like I said, the only way they will unite is if the mainland invades and wins because Taiwanese are not interested.

There will never be a peaceful unification.

Well you seem to have a different opinion than that of the US government.

You're going to have to back up your opinion, and just some advise, read the info you use carefully because I'll probably use it against your argument!

WWWTT

[Bryan]

Taiwan is China. Republic of China. Their own constitution says their intent is full reunification with The People's Republic of China and Mongolia.

[WWWTT]

I do agree that the US is protecting Taiwan.

The US is also protecting the Mainland from Taiwan!

WWWTT

Taiwan is China. Republic of China. Their own constitution says their intent is full reunification with The People's Republic of China and Mongolia.

I have implied that Bryan in the top comment I made.

But my implication was that the Chinese in Taiwan would go the invasion of the mainland route.

As the RMB economy grows to the soon largest in the world, and as political reform slowly grows in the land of the RMB, the separated part of the family will be welcomed back.

WWWTT

[TimG]

Taiwan is China. Republic of China. Their own constitution says their intent is full reunification with The People's Republic of China and Mongolia.

Please show us where:

http://www.taiwandocuments.org/constitution01.htm

The political posturing occurs in Taiwan as well because it was originally founded with belief that the nationalists would eventually replace communists in Beijing (i.e. unification only on the Nationalists terms). The practical reality today: Taiwan is a separate country with a democratically elected government and has absolutely nothing to gain from unification.

Edited April 19, 2014 by TimG

[WWWTT]

Here's more back up links.

http://ri.search.yahoo.com/_ylt=A0LEV75YklJTWVsAa3kXFwx.;_ylu=X3oDMTByODJtaWUzBHNlYwNzcgRwb3MDMwRjb2xvA2JmMQR2dGlkAw--/RV=2/RE=1397949145/RO=10/RU=http%3a%2f%2fchineseposters.net%2fthemes%2ftaiwan-reunification.php/RK=0/RS=OMItM8hoeyVLHelQLRKXZVa34bw-

This link supports the belief that reunification will happen, eventually and peacefully.

http://ri.search.yahoo.com/_ylt=A0LEV75YklJTWVsAaHkXFwx.;_ylu=X3oDMTByMG04Z2o2BHNlYwNzcgRwb3MDMQRjb2xvA2JmMQR2dGlkAw--/RV=2/RE=1397949145/RO=10/RU=http%3a%2f%2fen.wikipedia.org%2fwiki%2fChinese_reunification/RK=0/RS=yMs9baDcsWuwBvtrFdHR4qqBA9M-

This quote is taken from the following link I have provided:

Since the founding of the People's Republic of China, 157 countries have established diplomatic relations with China. All these countries recognize that there is only one China and that the Government of the People's Republic of China is the sole legal government of China and Taiwan is part of China.

http://ri.search.yahoo.com/_ylt=A0LEV75YklJTWVsAaXkXFwx.;_ylu=X3oDMTBybnV2cXQwBHNlYwNzcgRwb3MDMgRjb2xvA2JmMQR2dGlkAw--/RV=2/RE=1397949145/RO=10/RU=http%3a%2f%2fwww.china.org.cn%2fenglish%2f7953.htm/RK=0/RS=EpTdcD1iB9hwiuqXtBL3TBmHPMU-

I can't see how some posters here think they are right, and that 157 countries are wrong?

WWWTT

[TimG]

This link supports the belief that reunification will happen, eventually and peacefully.

You got to be kidding. A propaganda website?! From your link: About chineseposters.net

This website aims to present Chinese propaganda posters through virtual exhibitions, theme presentations and a web-database.

No one is arguing that the government in Beijing wants to "re-unite" China. The question is whether Taiwan is an independent country today and whether it has anything to gain from re-unification in the future. The answer to the first question is emphatically yes when you look at any measure other than the political doublespeak designed to keep the despots in Beijing from throwing a fit. The answer to the second question is emphatically no.

Edited April 19, 2014 by TimG

[WWWTT]

You got to be kidding. A propaganda website?! From your link: About chineseposters.net

This website aims to present Chinese propaganda posters through virtual exhibitions, theme presentations and a web-database.

No one is arguing that the government in Beijing wants to "re-unite" China. The question is whether Taiwan is an independent country today and whether it has anything to gain from re-unification in the future. The answer to the first question is emphatically yes when you look at any measure other than the political doublespeak designed to keep the despots in Beijing from throwing a fit. The answer to the second question is emphatically no.

Does independent = autonomous?

WWWTT

[TimG]

Does independent = autonomous?

Independent means it has exclusive sovereignty over its territory.

Laws passed in Beijing cannot be enforced in Taipei.

This is the internationally accepted criteria used to determine if a territory is a country.

Edited April 19, 2014 by TimG

[WWWTT]

This is the internationally accepted criteria used to determine if a territory is a country.

I request that you support your argument here.

Furthermore, China's proposal for a one country, two systems approach is absolutely nothing new!

Look at Quebec. Very much a different country within Canada!

Another good example would be the USA. Laws vary wildly from state to state! Also Russia.

Common connecting thread here would be the geographical size of a country. The physically larger and with greater population, the more greater varied and loser interpretation of country.

I still stand by thread, Taiwan is part of China!

WWWTT

[WWWTT]

This is a bigger debate than what some here who have not contributed to this thread may think it is.

http://ri.search.yahoo.com/_ylt=A0LEVkAhuVNTBC4AyTEXFwx.;_ylu=X3oDMTByMG04Z2o2BHNlYwNzcgRwb3MDMQRjb2xvA2JmMQR2dGlkAw--/RV=2/RE=1398024610/RO=10/RU=http%3a%2f%2fen.wikipedia.org%2fwiki%2fList_of_countries_by_population/RK=0/RS=rSDYwkyZOOtWhV9Wv1GlWkeSwvE-

Now you may be wondering why I posted this link?

I have done so to prove a point!

Note that there are 243 countries listed here with a ranking in population. Among these 243, there are a whopping 4 Chinese countries!!!!

China (1), Taiwan (52), Hong Kong (101) and Macau (168) (special note would be that there are other countries that have smaller administrative regions, examples include France and the USA-Puerto Rico)

There does not seem to be an agreeable defined interpretation of what a country is or an complete independent country or how a claim to a country and how the people within the country define themselves as.

However, I am still in the belief that I have properly titled this thread!

WWWTT

[-TSS-]

If Taiwan is part of China then Kosovo is still part of Serbia.

[cybercoma]

Taiwan is part of China!

Taiwan will eventually politically rejoin

WWWTT

So Taiwan isn't part of China?

[WWWTT]

If Taiwan is part of China then Kosovo is still part of Serbia.

How many countries recognize this?

WWWTT

[WWWTT]

So Taiwan isn't part of China?

Hong Kong and Macau will also politically rejoin with the mainland.

Without doing any research, from what I remember, it will be like 30-50 years or something like that (but that could be from 1999,1997, not 2014). But I believe that there is a timetable for full integration.

Also the mainland does have a timetable for political reforms, which will make the integration transition more easy.

Same as with Taiwan, as political evolution transforms the mainland and Taiwan, and as their economy and RMB become more attractive(PRC), Taiwan will more aggressively seek political and full integration.

Let me ask you this, does the Harper conservative government reflect the political reality in Quebec? Or how about yourself?

There is absolutely no question that Taiwan is part of China.

Here's a link I found supporting my position.

http://ri.search.yahoo.com/_ylt=A0LEVjGSUFpTbEQAJXoXFwx.;_ylu=X3oDMTByZHI5MXByBHNlYwNzcgRwb3MDNgRjb2xvA2JmMQR2dGlkAw--/RV=2/RE=1398456594/RO=10/RU=http%3a%2f%2fwww.nytimes.com%2f2014%2f02%2f18%2fopinion%2ftaiwan-and-china-edge-ever-closer.html/RK=0/RS=PJ5EFn9__OAK6DtSJhKcww9sq8g-

WWWTT

[Rue]

Formosa or Taiwan as we all know became the island of exile for the former Nationalist Chinese government when Mao Tse Tung took power in China in 1949 after WW2. In that take over Mao killed over 20 million of his own citizens and quite frankly to my surprise, I learned from my high school student staying with me who is Chinese she learned in her school about this cultural revolution and there was open discussion about the failures of Mao and this great amount of killings and the short comings of this revolution.

I must confess I was under the impression that they would not openly discuss such things and be candid about the cultural revolution and the deaths.

Now what degree of free discussion about Chinese policies can go on, on the mainland I do not know but I do know she was also taught Taiwan is part of China. Its a given for mainland Chinese I take it.

That said, the practical reality is when you have an island like Taiwan develop now independently of China for over 60 years with a separate military, separate economic system, separate tax system, different laws, etc., its probably unrealistic to think you can just send the Chinese Red Army in and take it over.

Its too large a country and has too powerful a military to take over with force.

So unless you are going to have the majority of people in Taiwan vote for reunification, it won't happen.

China has in the last ten years built up both its Navy and Air Force to show a stringer presence in the area where Taiwan depends heavily on a military alliance with the US and is in a constellation with South Korea, Japan, the Philippines as principal American allies in that area.

That constellation of economies does not want China in any of their countries for obvious reasons.

Right now however because North Korea is so unpredictable, the traditional Taiwan-China debate takes second stage.

I do think with Putin trying to rebuild the Soviet cold war atmosphere and empire he may see a strategic alliance with China crucial and may want to flame tensions with North Korea and Taiwan as a way to get back at the US for sanctions and yes China does need oil and gas and Russia can supply it but the Chinese also have another issue.

Because China was so successful in dumping its goods using predatory pricing all over the free world using its government monopoly control to fix its currency rate to always make it more competitive than its fellow nations, it did succeed in trade but so much so its created huge trade imbalances and deficits in all of Europe and even North America. If it inflames the US or Europe too much or allows Putin too much room, it threatens to cut off the people who it needs to pay it back. If the European or US economies which are thread bare and fragile collapse so would China big time.

As it is China is in no position to swallow up Taiwan. It is suffering from inflation and its economic production has hit a ceiling-it could only go on so far exporting cheap goods dependent on its cheap manual labour supply.

China's actual major competitor right now is and will remain India which directly competes with it for the same oil, gas, water, natural resources.

The practical reality is China is not in a position now to entertain battles with anyone.

As tense as things get with China and the US and Taiwan they are superceded by the practical realities of world trade and let's not forget-if China became militarily offensive against Taiwan, it would trigger Japan re-arming and I doubt anyone wants that.

[cybercoma]

Hong Kong and Macau will also politically rejoin with the mainland.

Without doing any research, from what I remember, it will be like 30-50 years or something like that (but that could be from 1999,1997, not 2014). But I believe that there is a timetable for full integration.

Also the mainland does have a timetable for political reforms, which will make the integration transition more easy.

Same as with Taiwan, as political evolution transforms the mainland and Taiwan, and as their economy and RMB become more attractive(PRC), Taiwan will more aggressively seek political and full integration.

Let me ask you this, does the Harper conservative government reflect the political reality in Quebec? Or how about yourself?

There is absolutely no question that Taiwan is part of China.

Here's a link I found supporting my position.

http://ri.search.yahoo.com/_ylt=A0LEVjGSUFpTbEQAJXoXFwx.;_ylu=X3oDMTByZHI5MXByBHNlYwNzcgRwb3MDNgRjb2xvA2JmMQR2dGlkAw--/RV=2/RE=1398456594/RO=10/RU=http%3a%2f%2fwww.nytimes.com%2f2014%2f02%2f18%2fopinion%2ftaiwan-and-china-edge-ever-closer.html/RK=0/RS=PJ5EFn9__OAK6DtSJhKcww9sq8g-

WWWTT

So you mean figuratively, right?

[TimG]

Without doing any research, from what I remember, it will be like 30-50 years or something like that (but that could be from 1999,1997, not 2014). But I believe that there is a timetable for full integration.

Except no one is asking the people of Hong Kong and Macau if that is what they want. What you are really talking about is a colonial power (Beijing) using it muscle to impose itself on its neighbors.

Same as with Taiwan, as political evolution transforms the mainland and Taiwan, and as their economy and RMB become more attractive(PRC), Taiwan will more aggressively seek political and full integration.

Canada is fully integrated with the US economy. 85% of our trade is with the US yet there is no appetite for merging the countries. The same will be true of Taiwan which has a distinct culture and political system. All you are doing is spewing the propaganda of the wannbe colonial power in Beijing.

Let me ask you this, does the Harper conservative government reflect the political reality in Quebec? Or how about yourself?

What does that have to do with anything.? Quebec is part of Canada and will remain so for the foreseeable future. The people of Quebec may or may not choose to separate, at which point, the pieces of Quebec that the new state is able to control will become part of a new country.

There is absolutely no question that Taiwan is part of China.

Only if you are completely delusional. The definition a a sovereign state is an entity that has exclusive power to pass and enforce laws within its territory. Taiwan meets this definition. The wiki description points out that being internationally recognized is not a requirement.

A sovereign state is a nonphysical juridical entity of the international legal system that is represented by a centralized government that has supreme independent authority over a geographic area. International law defines sovereign states as having a permanent population, a government, and the capacity to enter into relations with other sovereign states.[1] It is also normally understood to be a state which is neither dependent on nor subject to any other power or state.[2] The existence or disappearance of a state is a question of fact.[3] While according to the declarative theory of state recognition a sovereign state can exist without being recognised by other sovereign states, unrecognised states will often find it hard to exercise full treaty-making powers and engage in diplomatic relations with other sovereign states.

Edited April 26, 2014 by TimG

[WWWTT]

So you mean figuratively, right?

No relatively.

WWWTT