Will Ukraine affect the upcoming and presidential elections?

[The_Squid]

The crimian parliament and most of the population are staunchly pro russian and always have been.

This was a very bold assertion. Where is your cite about the population of Crimea being "staunchly pro Russian"? Did you read the report that I linked to?

[dre]

This was a very bold assertion. Where is your cite about the population of Crimea being "staunchly pro Russian"? Did you read the report that I linked to?

I base that on the fact that Crimea is nearly 75% Russian Speaking, and that the parliament just voted unanymously to become part of the Russian federation. And your study was from before the recent events which have had a huge impact on how Crimeans see the Ukrainian government.

In any case maybe Im wrong! Thats why they should be allowed to vote. Instead of moronic sabre rattling, we should be trying to make sure that the referendum is as honest as possible, and try to get some independant observers in there to monitor things. Instead we are just pissing and moaning, recalling ambassadors and trying to act tough. That just means we will have no useful influence on the process at all.

[ASIP]

Not quite sure about that. Is the new leader of Crimea hand picked by Putin himself?

Of course not. He was hand picked by planners of this military operation, who reports to Putin.

The guy is a gangster switched to politics. His nickname is Goblin from the Salem gang. His party took whooping 3% in the last Crimean election.

In night Russian commandos seized the Crimean Parliament building, unknown number of Crimean MPs arrived, behind closed doors, in the blocked building they fired existing Crimean government and announced the guy, Aksenov the Prime Minister of Crimea. According to the CRIMEAN constituion, a Crimean PM must be approved by the President of Ukraine. Thus, this guy is illegal usurper of power. With his thugs, backed by Russian troops he is a real power in Crimea. Any attempts of international missions enter Crimea are deflected. Journalists who try to report actual situation are savagely beaten, equipment is broken or stolen. Ukraine does not use force because the thugs will shoot and this is what Russia is waiting for from the very beginning.

Meanwhile, Russian troops started to lay minefields and put posts (probably for barbed wires) at the border with the mainland Ukraine.

[GostHacked]

Why? What violence has there been against Russian speakers in Crimea? You would be comforted by streets full of troops who wear no insignia or show their faces? I wouldn't.

Two words. Riot Police.

[Wilber]

3. The presense of Russian troops makes it impossible for the Ukrainian army to prevent a referendum on their future as was unanimously agreed apon by the democratically elected parliament in Crimea.

So a guy who you admit is a thug with a reputation of manipulating elections and suppressing dissent against his own regime, sends in thousands of troops wearing no insignia and who won't identify themselves in order to put his own boy in charge, so a free and democratic referendum can be held to decide Crimea's future. You actually believe this fairy tale?

BTW. A majority of Ukrainians are not in favour of a military alliance with the west so why can't Ukraine have a good economic relationship with both the EU and Russia? Why does it have to be one or the other or is it just because the Thug says so?

[Wilber]

Two words. Riot Police.

No, police wear insignia which identifies what organization they belong to.

[GostHacked]

Of course not. He was hand picked by planners of this military operation, who reports to Putin.

He would have been approved by Putin as well. See the Chechen rebel leader who was appointed president of Chechnya by Putin himself.

The guy is a gangster switched to politics. His nickname is Goblin from the Salem gang. His party took whooping 3% in the last Crimean election.

Putin is a KGB man from the Soviet era. An era he wants to restore. Unlike two faced leaders we have in the west, Putin says he will do something, and he does it. You know exactly what you are getting with Putin. Does not really make the task easier, but at least maybe easier to understand in order to devise a plan to take him down.

He is a very smart man. First civilian to hold the FSB (new name for the KGB organization).

According to the CRIMEAN constituion, a Crimean PM must be approved by the President of Ukraine.

The President of Ukraine fled the country. Even if many were against him, he simply abandoned the country.

Thus, this guy is illegal usurper of power. With his thugs, backed by Russian troops he is a real power in Crimea. Any attempts of international missions enter Crimea are deflected. Journalists who try to report actual situation are savagely beaten, equipment is broken or stolen. Ukraine does not use force because the thugs will shoot and this is what Russia is waiting for from the very beginning.

Constitutions are just pieces of paper, apparently. However if the people has voted to join Russia, then the constitution will be changed.

I see Russia and Putin as thugs as with certain members of NATO. They just wear different colours. Just like criminal gangs.

Ukraine does not use force? What have we been seeing over the past few weeks then? Or are you talking about they don't use force outside of their borders?

Meanwhile, Russian troops started to lay minefields and put posts (probably for barbed wires) at the border with the mainland Ukraine.

Cite?

[ASIP]

In any case maybe Im wrong!

You are dead wrong.

You assume Russian in Crimea = wants to join Russia. This is not true.

That is not true that "Parliament voted unanimously". Ukrainians and Tatars are not participating. There is no any proof that the voting took place. The building is blocked, media are not allowed. The new Crimean government will rubber stamp everything Russian bosses will order them.

You cannot claim this so called referendum is fair if it is not monitored by respectful bodies.

I have a strong reservation to mental health of a person who claims that a referendum under guns of occupying army is fair.

This so called referendum does not explain what happens to Ukrainian federal property in Crimea. Even a simple divorce is based on some laws. This so called referendum is based on no law and is performing in astonishing haste. 25 May, no 30 March! no 16 March! And this decides the fate of 45-million country.

This so called referendum will be a farce. The result is already decided. By the way, why didn't you say that the referendum was was item number 2 in the Crimean parliament decision? Item 1 is "Crimea is a part of Russian Federation". Do you know this? If you don't, I ask you not to spread false information about Ukraine. If you don't know something for sure, please, add "as reported by a Russian news agency".

I already told you why.

1. A pro-russian politician popular with Crimeans was removed as a result of a violent uprising (quite possibly orchestrated by foreigners), and an anti-russian leader was installed without a single person voting for him.

Not true.

2. The Ukrainian government pass a law denying them to make Russian an official language in Crimea even though most people there speak it.

Not true. Otherwise, please give a name of that law. Show how it does what you state.

3. ... as was unanimously agreed apon by the democratically elected parliament in Crimea.

Not true.

BTW, your typo "apon" gives me some thought...

[ASIP]

Meanwhile, Russian troops started to lay minefields and put posts (probably for barbed wires) at the border with the mainland Ukraine.

Cite?

http://censor.net.ua/video_news/274732/minnye_polya_yamy_dlya_pogranstolbov_i_stvoly_btrov_napravlennye_na_shkolu_boeviki_rf_ukrepilis_na_granitse

[GostHacked]

http://censor.net.ua/video_news/274732/minnye_polya_yamy_dlya_pogranstolbov_i_stvoly_btrov_napravlennye_na_shkolu_boeviki_rf_ukrepilis_na_granitse

Unfortunately my Russian is not very good. And I am sure something will get lost in google translator. Got an english cite perhaps?

[ASIP]

Unfortunately my Russian is not very good. And I am sure something will get lost in google translator. Got an english cite perhaps?

I know that, I meant not text. There are two photographs with sings "Mines! Danger!" and fresh dug holes for the posts.

[Argus]

Many Canadians would say the same of Canada's Liberal Party. Trudeau imprisoned hundreds. In the US, Nixon authorized the military to shoot innocent American citizens.

Stupid Canadians, perhaps. I don't recall the RCMP or the US police setting up snipers on top of trucks and blowing people's heads off because they were demonstrating against the government.

I'm with TinyDancer. The Ukrainian regime may not have been a perfect democracy but mobs are not democracy either.

Perhaps true, but it was parliament which booted Yanukovich out and voted in an interim president.

ASIP, you strike me as a Ukrainian nationalist and you wish to draw westerners into the defence of your nation. Stephen Harper, to get your vote, seems to be going along with you.

Harper being opposed to this undoubtedly plays well among the Ukrainian Canadian community, but he doesn't really need more western votes. Your own hypocrisy in continuing to suggest the OP is a 'nationalist' while at the same time being a nationalist yourself (no doubt you see yourself as a different sort of nationalist) makes your posting on this subject more than usually strange, even for you.

[Argus]

There is no invasion. Crimea is no longer Ukrainian soil, it's government voted to join Russia, and a referendum has been sheduled to decide its future... its people will probably do the same. The people and government of Crimea welcomed the presense of Russian troops.

I've never really thought about it before, but I'm rapidly coming to the conclusion 'dre' speaks Russian at home.

Edited March 8, 2014 by Argus

[Argus]

Do you get your news from Russian state television? It's gov't voted to join Russia, after they were invaded... a referendum done at the barrel of an AK-47 is hardly going to be a democratic process...

Not only that, but with Russian troops in the parliament building, no reporters around, and the vote was unanimous -- with none of the Ukrainian or Tartar deputies permitted to vote.

This seems fine to dre, though.

[GostHacked]

I've never really thought about it before, but I'm rapidly coming to the conclusion 'dre' has Russian ancestry.

This is a new low. Can't we talk about this without being a complete asshat to one another?

[Argus]

The crimian parliament and most of the population are staunchly pro russian and always have been.

Really? And you know this how, exactly? Always have been? Can you tell us about the mass protests, the demands that Crima join Russia, from last year, from ten years ago? From thirty years ago? Can you tell us about the mobs and violence from before the last few months? Can you tell us about the separatist movement? Nope. You don't know ANYTHING| about Crimea but what you're getting from Russia.

And if Russian troops hadnt been there, they would never have been ALLOWED to have a referendum in the first place.

Because they were oppressed by their Russian president, who was just booted out, you mean, in the democratic state of Ukraine, with a free media?

One thing for sure, we never want to hear your opinion on human rights again since it's evident you don't believe in them.

[Argus]

I already told you why.

1. A pro-russian politician popular with Crimeans was removed as a result of a violent uprising (quite possibly orchestrated by foreigners), and an anti-russian leader was installed without a single person voting for him.

The 'violence' mostly consisted of people being shot to death by the police. The new acting president is not anti-Russian. What evidence do you have for that, if any? And he was voted in by the elected parliament.

2. The Ukrainian government pass a law denying

them to make Russian an official language in Crimea even though most people there speak it.

My God, you're so ignorant. You need to look at something other than Pravda, or whatever Russian rags you're getting your news from. In point of fact what happened was that parliament cancelled a bunch of the laws put in place by the former president, most of them pretty undemocratic (not that that would bother you). None of them had to do with the language in Crimea. One had to do with language at the federal level, and the new "anti-Russian" President refused to sign it saying it might be construed as inflammatory.

3. The presense of Russian troops makes it impossible for the Ukrainian army to prevent a referendum on their future as was unanimously agreed apon by the democratically elected parliament in Crimea.

At the point of the guns of the masked men who had taken over the parliament at that point, and absent the Ukrainian and Tartar members who were not permitted to vote, you mean?

[Argus]

This was a very bold assertion. Where is your cite about the population of Crimea being "staunchly pro Russian"? Did you read the report that I linked to?

I saw an interview the other day with a Russian woman in Crimea. She said, to paraphrase, that those people in the streets of Crimea represented maybe 1% of the population, and that while she loved Russia she certainly didn't want to join it. She was perfectly content thinking of herself as a Ukrainian.

[Argus]

This is a new low. Can't we talk about this without being a complete asshat to one another?

His position is otherwise inexplicable and I can't figure out how he can put it forward unless he's trolling - which he's not known for. Everything he claims is utter nonsense. Who supports secret votes taken behind closed doors under the guns of masked men?!

[GostHacked]

His position is otherwise inexplicable and I can't figure out how he can put it forward unless he's trolling - which he's not known for. Everything he claims is utter nonsense. Who supports secret votes taken behind closed doors under the guns of masked men?!

Even if his position is inexplicable, no reason to be an asshat. This is the kind of thing that personalizes the argument and detracts from talking about the events. His reaction is more of frustration having to explain what he is reading/hearing while getting attacked as a 'pro Russian' view. I don't think anyone here is really pro Russian anyways.

[Argus]

Even if his position is inexplicable, no reason to be an asshat. This is the kind of thing that personalizes the argument and detracts from talking about the events. His reaction is more of frustration having to explain what he is reading/hearing while getting attacked as a 'pro Russian' view. I don't think anyone here is really pro Russian anyways.

I'm sorry? Of course his view is pro-Russian! It is word for word right out of Putin's press statements. According to dre Russia has done nothing wrong, violated no laws, and is only there to protect the poor Russian speakers, all of whom are desperate to join Russia. How can you possibly say his views are not pro Russian?! If Russia paid people to go on the internet and put their case it would be exactly the same as what he's put here.

Edited March 8, 2014 by Argus

[GostHacked]

I'm sorry? Of course his view is pro-Russian! It is word for word right out of Putin's press statements. According to dre Russia has done nothing wrong, violated no laws, and is only there to protect the poor Russian speakers, all of whom are desperate to join Russia. How can you possibly say his views are not pro Russian?!

You have two sides to the media here. And they both have slants. Seems quite obvious to me. But hey that is what the news seems to be reporting, even if it is false.

North American and European media will slant it one way, Russia and their allies will slant is another way. But we seem to buy into one set of propaganda more than the other. Our governments could not possibly be doing that kind of thing right? As much as this is used as a poke at Canada, the intervention in Haiti was exactly one of our better moments. And with that it is hard for Canada to condemn this action for doing the same thing elsewhere. Just as it is hypocritical for the US and EU to condemn this action when we have seen the US go into Iraq and Afghanistan. France into Mali. Italy into Libya.

If Russia paid people to go on the internet and put their case it would be exactly the same as what he's put here.

Russia most likely does have a military group that does exactly that. The Internet has been used as a weapon by both sides in this ongoing cyberwar that has existed for more than a decade now. Social media is now part of that weapons system. Coercion and subversion via online and right here at home!

http://www.cbsnews.com/news/so-why-does-the-air-force-want-hundreds-of-fake-online-identities-on-social-media-update/

[bleeding heart]

Gosthacked makes good points.

The conundrum, one that will not soon go away, is that we cannot trust Western governments. They are untrustworthy; and I don't mean that in a vague "the government"! sort of Pliny way; I mean they are behooved to act in horrible ways thanks to institutional lunacies, quite separate from the individual decency of the leaders and policymakers themselves.

Canada helping in the thoroughly illegal overthrow of the Haitian elected government (with a greater popular mandate than our own, by a large measure) is simply one example; it tells us, and by definition, that Canada has a certain detestation for democracy when the democratic outcomes are not the "proper" ones.

And as for allies like the US and UK and France...forget it. Their records are dank ones as well, and speak for themselves.

But the conundrum is real, because places like Russia too are, obviously, untrustworthy and behave badly. So it is right for Canada et al to decry their behavior; it is just what we should be doing.

But the hypocrisy is real, and so long as only the far left and a minority segment of right-wing libertarians are willing to point out the awful hypocrisies (the suborning of democracy, the murders, the terrorism) of our own countries, certainly nothing is ever going to change.

[Wilber]

Just as it is hypocritical for the US and EU to condemn this action when we have seen the US go into Iraq and Afghanistan. France into Mali. Italy into Libya.

You can be as critical of those actions as you want but all of those actions were sanctioned by the UN and in none of those cases were the US, EU, France or Italy trying to claim these countries as their own territory.

This is a simple land grab to be accomplished by force majeure. No other explanation applies. Do you really think a referendum held with two weeks notice at the point of a gun with no time for discussion or debate is an appropriate way to decide the fate of a country? Please. Would anyone here stand for the PQ pulling such a stunt?

Edited March 8, 2014 by Wilber

[GostHacked]

You can be as critical of those actions as you want but all of those actions were sanctioned by the UN and in none of those cases were the US, EU, France or Italy trying to claim these countries as their own territory.

Much of that was not about territory as it was control of the flow of oil and the currency it is traded in. No need to actually control the area itself. But it does help to have troops and private security contractors helping those stand up oil companies from raping Iraq and Afghanistan. How many US/CAN troops does it take to protect an opium field?

And I don't see the UN as being an exactly unbiased entity. It is as good as the members that participate in it. The UN is was to prevent another world war, but we have had ongoing proxy wars between the two superpowers for decades.

When the Russians are telling you it is about ethnic Russians, I call bull. It is about resources and the control of them.

When the Americans are telling you it is about freedom and terrorism, I call bull. It is about resources and the control of them.

Both sides are blowing smoke up all our asses. It is and always has been about resources and control.

This is a simple land grab to be accomplished by force majeure. No other explanation applies. Do you really think a referendum held with two weeks notice at the point of a gun with no time for discussion or debate is an appropriate way to decide the fate of a country? Please. Would anyone here stand for the PQ pulling such a stunt?

It is a land grab. But you also had subversion from way back when on the NATO side which assisted in helping these states break away.