Female Israeli soldiers speak out about the Israeli sickness

[DogOnPorch]

Seriously?

For that?

Yes I found it.

That's not likely.

I don't recall whether restitution and compensation have been addressed?

I know there are many difficult issues - where are the borders, access to resources, etc.

But it must be time to stop standing six feet apart and shooting out each other's eye-for-an-eye-for-an-eye ... for an eye ?

Remember who started the war in the first place. This is a very important point that can not be escaped. Plus...seriously, where else has a former big-wig Nazi been allowed to ferment war in search of his own private country? Was Goering allowed? Not likely... But for some weird reason, folks want to give al-Husseini and his Palestinian Cause a pass on this.

Grand Mufti al-Husseini inspects his personal 13th Waffen SS division...the largest SS unit of WW2.

Edited October 30, 2013 by DogOnPorch

[GostHacked]

Interesting enough it has been used by you, Hudson, Bud, and Ghost to depict all Jews who support a collective state as racist and then have the audacity to come on this forum, ignore that and try flip it around to suggest things that have not been stated on this post in response to the threads negatively stereotyping all Zionists let alone Jews who support a collective Jewish state as racist.

Zionism is not a race. It is a political/social/religious ideology. Jews and Israelis are the people, the religion is Judiasm, the political movement is Zionism.

And your real beef is with Bud, not with me, so stop with the transgressions.

[DogOnPorch]

I've don't play the anti-semite card, so I won't even get into whether "you, dre, and doubtless many other have been unfairly labeled as such" - I will just point out that when posters claim that Zionists are savages/Zionism is a cancer that should be wiped off the face of the earth - and then call people here a Zionist - it's taking it to a different level.

It's known as using 'weasel words'. We all know what "Zionist" means to the likes of some. A word rarely used when I was growing up since Israel was ALREADY a fact.

[dre]

I've don't play the anti-semite card, so I won't even get into whether "you, dre, and doubtless many other have been unfairly labeled as such" - I will just point out that when posters claim that Zionists are savages/Zionism is a cancer that should be wiped off the face of the earth - and then call people here a Zionist - it's taking it to a different level.

Zionism is a political ideology not a race. You can find it dispicable without harboring any ill will to jews what-so-ever. You can ALSO find zionism dispicable and support the existance of Israel, even though the Israel was in part of the result of zionism.

So its just really dishonest to pull out the antisemite card when zionism is the subject. Its like claiming people who dont like the republican party are racist against Americans, or that people who dislike Fascism are racist against Italians.

[dre]

Remember who started the war in the first place. This is a very important point that can not be escaped. Plus...seriously, where else has a former big-wig Nazi been allowed to ferment war in search of his own private country? Was Goering allowed? Not likely... But for some weird reason, folks want to give al-Husseini and his Palestinian Cause a pass on this.

Grand Mufti al-Husseini inspects his personal 13th Waffen SS division...the largest SS unit of WW2.

Theres been a BUNCH of wars, and they were not all started by the same side.

[DogOnPorch]

Theres been a BUNCH of wars, and they were not all started by the same side.

What are you going on about now?

[bleeding heart]

I've don't play the anti-semite card, so I won't even get into whether "you, dre, and doubtless many other have been unfairly labeled as such" - I will just point out that when posters claim that Zionists are savages/Zionism is a cancer that should be wiped off the face of the earth - and then call people here a Zionist - it's taking it to a different level.

Well, as was already clear, that anti-Zionist rhetoric often goes way too far is not something we disagree on, though perhaps you missed my agreement in the earlier post (#241).

For the record, I don't consider harsh criticism of Zionism to be anti-Semitic, even though I consider Zionism more complex than its critics, maybe. That all anti-semites are also anti-Zionists is true, but doesn't alter the first point.

But of course, that has exactly zero to do with anyone who does not post in such a way--myself for example--and nevertheless have more than once been deemed an "anti-Semite," based on nothing at all except, presumably, fear of having an honest discussion.

However, for those who engage in such unfair debating practices, there's nothing I can (or should) do about it. Except to point it out, on the off-chance that some other intellectual weakling takes their invective as wisdom or insight.

Edited October 30, 2013 by bleeding heart

[Guest American Woman]

Zionism is a political ideology not a race.

Did I say it was a race? No I did not.

You can find it dispicable without harboring any ill will to jews what-so-ever. You can ALSO find zionism dispicable and support the existance of Israel, even though the Israel was in part of the result of zionism.

And your point in regards to the point I was making would be ... what?

So its just really dishonest to pull out the antisemite card when zionism is the subject. Its like claiming people who dont like the republican party are racist against Americans, or that people who dislike Fascism are racist against Italians.

It's just really beyond dishonest to pull out the Zionist card for not agreeing with bud/dub's and Husdon's et al views - especially when said posters have said that Zionists are savages and Zionism is a cancer that should be wiped off the face of the earth. That's my point. Capice?

Edited October 30, 2013 by American Woman

[DogOnPorch]

Well, as was already clear, that anti-Zionist rhetoric often goes way too far is not something we disagree on, though perhaps you missed my agreement in the earlier post (#241).

But of course, that has exactly zero to do with anyone who does not post in such a way--myself for example--and nevertheless have more than once been deemed an "anti-Semite," based on nothing at all except, presumably, fear of having an honest discussion.

However, for those who engage in such unfair debating practices, there's nothing I can (or should) do about it. But I will of course point it out.

People advocating for the removal of Israel...either by flooding it with Muslim Arabs all holding apparent 'keys'...or some other method...are living in the same dreamworld that would have Canada hand itself to the Natives.

[bleeding heart]

People advocating for the removal of Israel...either by flooding it with Muslim Arabs all holding apparent 'keys'...or some other method...are living in the same dreamworld that would have Canada hand itself to the Natives.

I think this is a strong point, and I think the analogy is better than most internet-debate-analogies. But I'm afraid I don't quite see what it has to do with my post.

[DogOnPorch]

I think this is a strong point, and I think the analogy is better than most internet-debate-analogies. But I'm afraid I don't quite see what it has to do with my post.

Anti-Zionist rhetoric. If you're old enough, you'd know that "Zionist" wasn't part of the "West's" World-speak back before a certain date.

[GostHacked]

Anti-Zionist rhetoric. If you're old enough, you'd know that "Zionist" wasn't part of the "West's" World-speak back before a certain date.

It seems to go back as far as the very very early 1900s. How old do I have to be to remember?

[DogOnPorch]

It seems to go back as far as the very very early 1900s. How old do I have to be to remember?

The word started to be used as a negative about the same time as the Iranian Revolution and Yasser Arafat's cowardly retreat to Beirut. I doubt you were much more than a baby if even alive.

[GostHacked]

The word started to be used as a negative about the same time as the Iranian Revolution and Yasser Arafat's cowardly retreat to Beirut. I doubt you were much more than a baby if even alive.

Actually way before the Iranian Revolution. How old were you then?

[Rue]

Here Dre here is the generalization you made about Zionists calling anti Zionists self loathing Jews:

Here are your words verbatum:

Interesting enough it even gets used on Jews... the millions of jews that oppose Israeli behavior in the occupied terrorities are the :"self loathing" ones.

You ignored HudsonBudGhost fengaging in negative generalizations about all Zionists and then you engage in your own and try flip this post around and deflect from the original post to suggest pro Zionists slur anti Zionists.

The words speak for themselves Dre. calling me a liar does not erase them or back pedal away from the fact they exist and were placed there by you.

Edited October 30, 2013 by Rue

[GostHacked]

Here Dre here is the generalization you made about Zionists calling anti Zionists self loathing Jews:

Here are your words verbatum:

Interesting enough it even gets used on Jews... the millions of jews that oppose Israeli behavior in the occupied terrorities are the :"self loathing" ones.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Self-hating_Jew

Self-hating Jew is a term used to allege that a Jewish person holds antisemitic beliefs or engages in antisemitic actions. As a rhetorical device it moves discussion away from a given topic as the accused is pressured to defend themselves against the insult, preventing a further exchange of views. The concept gained widespread currency after Theodor Lessing's 1930 book Der Jüdische Selbsthass ("Jewish Self-hatred"), which tries to explain the prevalence of Jewish intellectuals inciting antisemitism with their extremely hateful view toward Judaism. Jewish self-hate has been described as a neurotic reaction to the impact of antisemitism by Jews accepting, expressing, and even exaggerating the basic assumptions of the anti-Semite.[1] The term became "something of a key term of opprobrium in and beyond Cold War-era debates about Zionism".[2] Similar accusations of being uncomfortable with one's Jewishness were already being made by groups of Jews against each other before Zionism existed as a movement.[2]

But even on Wikipedia it is not explained very well. Jews critical of Israel and it's actions are not anti-semites. However, this tactic is still being used to this day.

The origins of the concept of Jewish self-hatred lie in the mid-nineteenth century feuding between German Orthodox Jews of the Breslau seminary and Reform Jews.[7] Each side accused the other of betraying Jewish identity,[2] the Orthodox Jews accusing the Reform Jews of identifying more closely with German Protestantism and German nationalism than with Judaism.[7]

Could possibly be that Jews are their own worst enemy. And that seems to predate modern Israel.

You ignore HudsonBudGhost for engaging in negative generalizations about all Zionists and then you flip it to suggest its pro Zionists doing the negative generalizations.

Rue, stop this 'hudsonbudghost' crap.

[DogOnPorch]

Actually way before the Iranian Revolution. How old were you then?

You wouldn't know the year of the Iranian Revolution w/o consulting Google first...old man.

[GostHacked]

You wouldn't know the year of the Iranian Revolution w/o consulting Google first...old man.

I see you have your rod out again. I'll be back later.

[DogOnPorch]

I see you have your rod out again. I'll be back later.

If you need that much time to look it up just say so and I'll tell you.

[bud]

I've don't play the anti-semite card, so I won't even get into whether "you, dre, and doubtless many other have been unfairly labeled as such" - I will just point out that when posters claim that Zionists are savages/Zionism is a cancer that should be wiped off the face of the earth - and then call people here a Zionist - it's taking it to a different level.

not sure if you are purposely posting misinformation or you made a mistake but i need to correct your misinformation.

if you are referring to me, i have never said "zionists should be wiped off the face of the earth". i have said zionism, just like other extreme ideologies like wahabism should be resisted and outlawed. simply because they both have views and engage in actions that are criminal and violate human rights.

if you can find a post where i or anyone else have said: "zionists should be wiped off the face of the earth", then post it. thanks.

Edited October 30, 2013 by bud

[DogOnPorch]

bud: if you are referring to me, i have never said "zionists should be wiped off the face of the earth". i have said zionism, just like other extreme ideologies like wahabism should be resisted and outlawed. simply because they both have views and engage in actions that are criminal and violate human rights.

Well...that sure explains all the threads about Saudi Arabia you start.

Edited October 30, 2013 by DogOnPorch

[bud]

Well...that sure explains all the threads about Saudi Arabia you start.

our government doesn't support and excuse saudi arabia and neither do you, american woman and other israeli apologists.

[DogOnPorch]

our government doesn't support and excuse saudi arabia and neither do you, american woman and other israeli apologists.

I'm more interested in history that political apologies. History says the Palestinian Cause was started by an uber anti-Semite who subsequently started the Arab-Israeli Wars. Why do you support a cause started by a war-mongering Nazi connected to the Holocaust itself?

[Rue]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Self-hating_Jew

Could possibly be that Jews are their own worst enemy. And that seems to predate modern Israel.

Rue, stop this 'hudsonbudghost' crap.

Could it possibly be you once engage in a reference that casts a negative generalization on all Jews?

Could it be the Jews bring it on themselves comment is one of the oldest anti-Semitic canards there is?

You even know how this canard started and in what context? You think its new?

Could it be you are once again providing a classic example of how this post is not about criticizing Israeli policies but

making negative generalizations about all Jews?

Could it be the above generalization necessarily includes any Jew not just Zionist Jews?

Could it be you repeatedly can not resist stereotyping Jews and assigning us blanket negative motives, characteristics and thought patterns?

Stop the HudsonBudGhost crap? I would love to. You tell me, what will it take to stop people like you three from engaging in this kind of dialogue or Dre calling me a liar for calling him out on the same exercise?

What will it take to stop the HudsonBudGhost crap?

Here's a hint-take the negative generalizations about all Jews some place else and hear it loud and clear again-blaming Jews for hatred against them by saying they cause it is classic anti Semitism.

Yah I know and women who are raped bring it on themselves because of the clothes they wear.

Got it.

Dog has got it.I have got it and we ain't going away. Each time you engage in negative generalizations about Jews, we will challenge you.

[Rue]

our government doesn't support and excuse saudi arabia and neither do you, american woman and other israeli apologists.

In fact our government is allied with Saudi Arabia and has refrained from direct comments as to how it treats women, guest workers,

or its support of terror groups in Syria for strategic reasons.

That is public domain fact. If you need to know where the embassy is in Ottawa I can tell you.

Canada however has unlike any other Western nation chastised Iran and withdrawn its ambassador.

Bud can you try to get your facts straight.

Kind of hard to debate someone who reinvents reality on the fly.