Toronto Firefighters fired -- for tweets

[bleeding heart]

Oh, please. And FYI, I'm not the only one who finds it sexist:

House Majority Leader Paul “Skip” Stam suggested that Atkinson “should stick to her own knitting.”

Perhaps the Republican leader has grown weary of hearing the relentless criticism of the GOP action on education, but that type of sexist arrogance has no place in the public discourse.

https://www.reflector.com/opinion/editorials/editorial-stam8217s-sexist-comment-2136093

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Peter MacKay, deputy leader of the Conservative party, has apologized to New Democrat Alexa McDonough for telling her to "stick to her knitting."

MacKay says he has called McDonough personally to apologize.

He also sent a written apology to the offices of the Nova Scotia Advisory Council on the Status of Women and the local women's centre in his riding of Central Nova.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/nova-scotia/mackay-apologizes-for-knitting-comment-1.589797

Well, of course even an allegation of sexism is going to get political figures into damage-control mode, no matter what the case may be. It's part of the politically-correct culture which you elsewhere decry.

As for your "oh please" response...do you have anything more substantial? Because I don't find that rebuttal terribly convincing.

Edited September 20, 2013 by bleeding heart

[bleeding heart]

dp

Edited September 20, 2013 by bleeding heart

[Guest American Woman]

Well, of course even an allegation of sexism is going to get political figures into damage-control mode, no matter what the case may be.

As for your "oh please" response...do you have anything more substantial? Because I don't find that rebuttal terribly convincing.

Ummm, yeah, I had more. I posted examples of others who found the response offensive/sexist. As I said, I'm not the only one to find such a response to be sexist. If the phrase puts political figures into damage-control, there's something to it, no? McKay even "sent a written apology to the offices of the Nova Scotia Advisory Council on the Status of Women and the local women's centre in his riding of Central Nova."

As for whether or not you're convinced, I really couldn't care less. Some here don't see the fireman's quotes as sexist, either, as others clearly do.

[Black Dog]

Well, of course even an allegation of sexism is going to get political figures into damage-control mode, no matter what the case may be.

As for your "oh please" response...do you have anything more substantial? Because I don't find that rebuttal terribly convincing.

I would suggest that the phrase itself, since it can and is used in different contexts at men and women alike, is not in and of itself sexist (and given my track record on feminist issues overall here, the idea that I'd "go there" is pretty laughable). By contrast, when was the last time a man was told to get into the kitchen and make someone a sandwich? It's a stupid comparison.

In any case, in future I'll be certain to stick with phrases that are less likely to be misconstrued when I have to show AW she doesn't know what she's talking about. Which should be any time now.

[bleeding heart]

Ummm, yeah, I had more. I posted examples of others who found the response offensive/sexist. As I said, I'm not the only one to find such a response to be sexist. If the phrase puts political figures into damage-control, there's something to it, no? McKay even "sent a written apology to the offices of the Nova Scotia Advisory Council on the Status of Women and the local women's centre in his riding of Central Nova."

You didn't explain why or how my points were incorrect; you pointed out that "others" agree with you.

And you seem to think that political representatives make an especially good case, for...some reason, unstated. Perhaps they tend to be more honest and forthright than everyone else, I don't know.

Also, there is context--in this case, posting history--which is to be taken into account.

That is, if Rue posts, "Wow, Jews sure are evil"...well, we don't tend to read that the same way as when Lictor says, "Wow, Jews sure are evil."

Just as if I moaned rapturously about the magnificence of Sarah Palin, few here would mistake my opinion for Shady's.

Same with Black Dog, whose posting history puts things into context.

Edited September 20, 2013 by bleeding heart

[Black Dog]

Ummm, yeah, I had more. I posted examples of others who found the response offensive/sexist. As I said, I'm not the only one to find such a response to be sexist. If the phrase puts political figures into damage-control, there's something to it, no? McKay even "sent a written apology to the offices of the Nova Scotia Advisory Council on the Status of Women and the local women's centre in his riding of Central Nova."

As for whether or not you're convinced, I really couldn't care less. Some here don't see the fireman's quotes as sexist, either, as others clearly do.

You mean other people who aren't familiar with the idiom also misinterpreted it?

You can find people who think "niggardly" and "calling a spade a spade" are racist; doesn't mean they are right.

[g_bambino]

Is it ok to say offensive, hurtful things when you're "just joking"?

Do you still beat your wife?

Words aren't automatically offensive ot hurtful. If I were only joking when making a sexual, racial, or cultural jibe, it would only be insulting if a listener chose to take it that way, despite the context and my tone. (The back and forth between Black Dog and AW over the phrase "stick to your knitting" is serving as a great illustration.) The same applies even if the speaker intends to cause offense.

My mother often makes jibes about men. The men, in turn, give back about women. Nobody is insulted, though, because nobody chooses to be, though any one of us could. Ditto for the cultural fun my friends and I poke at each other and ourselves. Even if someone does intend to maliciously degrade my heritage or race, I just dismiss that individual or laugh at them.

[ed.: +]

Edited September 20, 2013 by g_bambino

[Guest American Woman]

You didn't explain why or how my points were incorrect; you pointed out that "others" agree with you.

I have no idea what "points" you are talking about. I pointed out that others are insulted by the remark, too. "Others" as in "women."

And you seem to think that political representatives make an especially good case, for...some reason, unstated. Perhaps they tend to be more honest and forthright than everyone else, I don't know.

What does honesty have to do with it?? As I pointd out, McKay even "sent a written apology to the offices of the Nova Scotia Advisory Council on the Status of Women and the local women's centre in his riding of Central Nova."

Why do you think he would do that? Do you think they are all dishonest politicians too?

At any rate, I'm done with this. I made the point I wanted to make, and I also pointed out that some find the firefighters remarks to be sexist as others don't.

[g_bambino]

Twitter is not like Facebook. Everyone can see your tweets, if your account is not private, regardless of whether they follow you or not.

Mm, yes. But, if nobody's following them except friends and family, nobody else would be reading their tweets unless stumbling upon them at random.

[cybercoma]

The "American" version of the Office? There's another version?

There's a much better and earlier version made in the UK. Were you being facetious?

[cybercoma]

There's something about guy culture which almost requires offensive statements. I do it myself almost unconsciously. I routinely insult my male friends, and they do back, and none of it is meant to be taken seriously. Not sure of the origin of that but as far as I can remember it's always been that way.

Think of such statements as "What a beautiful baby. Thank God he gets his looks from your wife and not you."

Absolutely standard fare in our culture.

You're talking about what is, as if that excuses it. Male culture is broken. That's the problem.

[Guest American Woman]

There's a much better and earlier version made in the UK. Were you being facetious?

Not at all. I don't watch The Office and have no idea of it's history - either here or abroad. You think I know all of the television shows that have played in the UK? Do you?

Edited September 20, 2013 by American Woman

[bleeding heart]

I have no idea what "points" you are talking about.

??

The points I made in the post to which you responded?

Well, that begs a question or two, doesn't it?

Edited September 20, 2013 by bleeding heart

[g_bambino]

[W]hen was the last time a man was told to get into the kitchen and make someone a sandwich?.

A few weeks ago, when I was at my buddy's place, come to think of it. I (as I figured would happen) got a swift, but laughing, FU in response.

[Guest American Woman]

Mm, yes. But, if nobody's following them except friends and family, nobody else would be reading their tweets unless stumbling upon them at random.

Obviously someone who took offense stumbled on them at random - and it took off from there, making its way into the MSM. That's the chance one takes when posting on a "public" forum. Anything anyone posts can go viral. Anyone who doesn't want their words to come back to haunt them best keep their accounts on social media private.

Edited September 20, 2013 by American Woman

[Black Dog]

A few weeks ago, when I was at my buddy's place, come to think of it. I (as I figured would happen) got a swift, but laughing, FU in response.

Yeah, I agree with Argus that there's a certain amount of boundary-pushing to be expected when friends are kibbitzuing. Context matters.

[cybercoma]

If I were only joking when making a sexual, racial, or cultural jibe, it would only be insulting if a listener chose to take it that way

This is such a ridiculous cop-out. When you say hurtful and offensive things, regardless of your intent, it's your fault for saying them. Not the person victimized by your speech for being a victim. That's so ridiculous that you would say it's their fault for being hurt or offended. Like seriously? "Bitch get back in the kitchen!" Oh, you're offended? You shouldn't be. I didn't mean for it to be offended. Excuse me while I not only use oppressive language as a joke, despite the oppression that you face daily, but I'm also going to define for you when you're allowed to be offended or not. That's awful thinking, bambino.

[guyser]

You mean other people who aren't familiar with the idiom also misinterpreted it?

Actually they were two really lame examples and did aboslutely nothing to bolster her argument. But hey, she can google.

The first doesnt even say who was offended and as such no one was, but it was a lesson on civility.

The other was obvious political manouevering which the poster has trouble seeing, but most others certainly dont. Hell, McDonough was even provided an explanation immediately, but she was smart enough to use it against McKay since she knew the dumb masses would believe her faux outrage. Seems she didnt miss her mark

And speaking of faux outrage......

[g_bambino]

When you say hurtful and offensive things, regardless of your intent, it's your fault for saying them.

"Hurtful" and "offensive" are entirely subjective. You cannot tell someone what to find offensive and I cannot control people's feelings with my words. I can intend to hurt, but whether or not I'm successful depends upon the reaction of the listener, who has a choice in how to react. Hence, how something like "get in the kitchen and make me a sandwich" is taken depends on a multitude of factors, including, but not limited to, personal history, relationship, intent, and tone.

[g_bambino]

Context matters.

Indeed it does.

[Guest American Woman]

Indeed it does.

Sometimes others don't see "context" the way you do. Anyone can excuse anything that way. Any bigot could simply make jokes and dismiss anyone who is offended as 'thin skinned.'

I think this says it well (emphasis mine):

Banter is a very odd thing. As an activity it provides a handy shelter for bigots to flex their anti PC brigade muscles and to prove to their friends that they fell out of the funny tree and hit every branch on the way down. [...] Anyone who questions the banter status quo is immediately deemed humourless. I’ve seen it used to shield people from accusations of racism, homophobia, disablism and sexism ....

Banter Bigotry: It’s only a joke, love

The idea that it's only offensive if the person it's directed at lets it offend them is ludicrous. It blames the person who such "jokes" are directed at rather than the person who made the offensive joke. If the person who the joke is directed at is offended - then the joke's not funny. It's as simple as that.

[BubberMiley]

If the person who the joke is directed at is offended - then the joke's not funny. It's as simple as that.

That's just your opinion, not fact. I find lots of jokes that offend others to be absolutely hilarious.

[Argus]

Mm, yes. But, if nobody's following them except friends and family, nobody else would be reading their tweets unless stumbling upon them at random.

Honestly, how many people who were not friends and family would be following these guys? I wager no one. In all likelihood these tweets were discovered because one or more of their friends or family who followed reposted them elsewhere, and some easily offended type picked up on them.

[Argus]

You're talking about what is, as if that excuses it. Male culture is broken. That's the problem.

That aspect of male culture has been the same for generations. When you say that male culture is 'broken' I assume what you mean is it hasn't been completely feminized yet, and stripped of every aspect of normal male thinking and behabiour, despite the best efforts of some.

[Argus]

This is such a ridiculous cop-out. When you say hurtful and offensive things, regardless of your intent, it's your fault for saying them. Not the person victimized by your speech for being a victim.

Being offended by something someone else says does not make you a victim if you're an actual mature adult. I'm aware that any number of people never managed to reach maturity, despite their age, but I don't see how we need to change everything we do and say to suit the immature.

That's so ridiculous that you would say it's their fault for being hurt or offended.

In most cases, yes, it is their fault. For something like this, it demonstrates a level of emotional immaturity and probably pyschological failure of various types. And I fail to see why we should let weaklings make rules just because they can't take ordinary banter.