Toronto Firefighters fired -- for tweets

[g_bambino]

I just think we should be hiring people who have the size, the mass, the weight and height and toughness these jobs sometimes urgently require.

Size, mass, weight, or height are totally irrelevant. What matters is strength, aptitude, and endurance (toughness). A man with mass and height doesn't necessarily have all or any of those three characteristics, whereas a man with average mass and height might well possess them. Ditto for a woman; she may not be a female of average strength and endurance, but she's perfectly capable of being an effective firefighter.

Will there be situations where a female firefighter might not have the strength required? Probably. But, then, too, the same could well happen to one of her male colleagues; in some circumstances, even to the strongest of them.

You seem to think there's variances in strength and stature among men, but all women are inherently inferior to the weakest and smallest man.

[g_bambino]

[T]here's a difference between good buddies sharing a running joke between themselves and broadcasting the same joke to the public.

Did either of them have that many followers, or was it just family and buddies?

[Boges]

Did either of them have that many followers, or was it just family and buddies?

I don't believe that matters all that much in Twitter thanks to the infamous ReTweet.

An NFL player recently hot into heap of trouble because he was recorded at a concert dropping an N-bomb.

Privacy doesn't mean what it used to mean.

Edited September 20, 2013 by Boges

[cybercoma]

Perhaps it's popularly acceptable because most people don't see it as being as aggressively misogynistic as you do? Maybe they can tell the difference between a joke (often self-satirising) and an expression of conviction.

Think about that for a minute. Is it ok to say offensive, hurtful things when you're "just joking"? Are most people's opinions valid when dealing when a particular group that's being targeted?

[cybercoma]

On your own time, in something as little known as a 'tweet', yeah.

Now if you go on TV and start pretending to represent your department, or speaking while on duty, that's different.

Maybe, but if he's in uniform on Twitter and making public statements on Twitter....well.

Let me remind you that I agree, he shouldn't have been fired. If it was for this single incident, then that's a bit much. They either fired him because 1) he had been talked to before about inappropriate behaviour, 2) he was a nuisance that they wanted to get rid of anyway, but needed an excuse, or 3) the national exposure of his comments and the backlash forced the department to show that they were doing something...anything...about it (they were setting an example). Under any other circumstance, I think he gets reprimanded and that's it. That's the appropriate course.

[cybercoma]

Did either of them have that many followers, or was it just family and buddies?

Twitter is not like Facebook. Everyone can see your tweets, if your account is not private, regardless of whether they follow you or not.

[Guest American Woman]

FWIW, the whole "get in the kitchen and make me X (usually it's a sandwich)" is pretty common, especially online, as a way of dismissing or demeaning a woman/women.

You should know, eh?

[Guest American Woman]

I think we should call into question his judgement if he actually think the American version of the Office is better than Seinfield.

The "American" version of the Office? There's another version?

[Black Dog]

You should know, eh?

What the hell are you talking about?

The "American" version of the Office? There's another version?

[Argus]

Think about that for a minute. Is it ok to say offensive, hurtful things when you're "just joking"? Are most people's opinions valid when dealing when a particular group that's being targeted?

There's something about guy culture which almost requires offensive statements. I do it myself almost unconsciously. I routinely insult my male friends, and they do back, and none of it is meant to be taken seriously. Not sure of the origin of that but as far as I can remember it's always been that way.

Think of such statements as "What a beautiful baby. Thank God he gets his looks from your wife and not you."

Absolutely standard fare in our culture.

[Guest American Woman]

What the hell are you talking about?

FWIW, the whole "get in the kitchen and make me X (usually it's a sandwich)" is pretty common, especially online, as a way of dismissing or demeaning a woman/women.

Stick to your knitting. You're out of your element as usual.

So I repeat. You should know. And I agree. It is most definitely a way of dismissing or demeaning a woman/women.

[Black Dog]

There's something about guy culture which almost requires offensive statements. I do it myself almost unconsciously. I routinely insult my male friends, and they do back, and none of it is meant to be taken seriously. Not sure of the origin of that but as far as I can remember it's always been that way.

Think of such statements as "What a beautiful baby. Thank God he gets his looks from your wife and not you."

Absolutely standard fare in our culture.

What about "What a beautiful baby. Thank God he didn't get your kike nose."

And, again, this case isn't about goodnatured ribbing between buddies.

[Black Dog]

So I repeat. You should know. And I agree. It is most definitely a way of dismissing or demeaning a woman/women.

I see your knowledge of idioms is about as up to snuff as your knowledge of British TV programs.

The newspaper records and Internet sites are full of decidedly non-sexist uses of the phrase. A New Zealand farm website told the Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Animals last year to "stick to your knitting" rather than accuse local farmers of abusing animals. Globe and Mail columnist Norman Spector used it in 2003 to describe Canadian politics: "While Gordon Campbell advocates 'Zen federalism' -- where Ottawa and the provinces stick to their knitting -- he says the premiers could do a better job than the feds in smoothing Canada-U.S. relations."

And business loves the expression. Thomas J. Peters and Robert H. Waterman Jr. popularized it in their 1982 book In Search of Excellence: Lessons from America's Best-Run Companies, in which one of the eight simple rules for corporate success was, "Stick to the knitting." In a 2001 issue of Insight, a publication of the collision-repair industry, Charles Baker wrote: "The old-fashioned advice of 'stick to your knitting' has never been more appropriate than now, as it relates to me and this newsletter. For the younger crowd, who may not have heard the old expression, this does not mean that I'll be making sweaters and socks at industry meetings. Stick to your knitting means to stay with what time and experience prove you do well."

Edited September 20, 2013 by Black Dog

[Argus]

Size, mass, weight, or height are totally irrelevant. What matters is strength, aptitude, and endurance (toughness). A man with mass and height doesn't necessarily have all or any of those three characteristics, whereas a man with average mass and height might well possess them. Ditto for a woman; she may not be a female of average strength and endurance, but she's perfectly capable of being an effective firefighter.

Will there be situations where a female firefighter might not have the strength required? Probably. But, then, too, the same could well happen to one of her male colleagues; in some circumstances, even to the strongest of them.

You seem to think there's variances in strength and stature among men, but all women are inherently inferior to the weakest and smallest man.

First, mass does matter. It has a lot to do with endurance and with how much weight you can easily move and carry, in dragging hose, in holding the hose when it's pouring water onto a fire (huge pushback), in being able to swing a sledgehammer to break in a door or use a large power tool. Think of it this way, with two men holding the fire hose you've probably got over 400 pounds anchoring it. With two women it's probably closer to 300. So obviously it's going to be harder to control, and they don't have the upper body strength to begin with.

I'm not saying women can't be firefighters. Hell, I could be a firefighter. I just wouldn't be nearly as good as a guy in better shape. I don't have the weight or the muscle mass. And yes, there is a variance in strength and muscle mass among men, as there is among women. But it's undeniable that men have more of it, especially in terms of upper body strength, and that women lose it faster as they age.

[guyser]

The "American" version of the Office? There's another version?

Yes, a funny one.

[Guest American Woman]

I see your knowledge of idioms is about as up to snuff as your knowledge of British TV programs.

And I see you know firsthand what you are talking about when you say there are things that men say online as a way of dismissing or demeaning a woman/women; I find your sexist response to me relevant to the comment that you made and I think it's relevant to point out that you should know, having engaged in the behavior yourself.

[bleeding heart]

And, again, this case isn't about goodnatured ribbing between buddies.

Nope. No one gives a rat's ass about that, which is as it should be.

[g_bambino]

I'm not saying women can't be firefighters.

Maybe not. But, what you did say is that they shouldn't be.

[Guest American Woman]

Maybe not. But, what you did say is that they shouldn't be.

Yep. He most certainly did.

[Black Dog]

And I see you know firsthand what you are talking about when you say there are things that men say online as a way of dismissing or demeaning a woman/women; I find your sexist response to me relevant to the comment that you made and I think it's relevant to point out that you should know, having engaged in the behavior yourself.

Except I just demonstrated the remark was not sexist and not intended as such. So you can stuff the faux outrage.

[bleeding heart]

And I see you know firsthand what you are talking about when you say there are things that men say online as a way of dismissing or demeaning a woman/women; I find your sexist response to me relevant to the comment that you made and I think it's relevant to point out that you should know, having engaged in the behavior yourself.

But he just contended--using some pretty convincing examples, particularly the last one--that it wasn't about sexism.

That the phrase clearly exists in a decidedly non-sexist framework would make it a bit coincidental that he discovered this framework after the fact of his indulging in a sexist remark.

Edited September 20, 2013 by bleeding heart

[Guest American Woman]

Except I just demonstrated the remark was not sexist and not intended as such. So you can stuff the faux outrage.

There's nothing "faux" about it, just as there is no "outrage." Simply pointing out the facts.

[Black Dog]

There's nothing "faux" about it, just as there is no "outrage." Simply pointing out the facts.

Ah so you're just full of crap. Par for the course. (Wait is that offensive to golfers?)

[guyser]

First, mass does matter. It has a lot to do with endurance and with how much weight you can easily move and carry, in dragging hose, in holding the hose when it's pouring water onto a fire (huge pushback), in being able to swing a sledgehammer to break in a door or use a large power tool.

Mass has very little to do with endurance.

If that were the case, long distance runners would have mass. They dont...at all

Most of your examples are technique related moreso than male female strength comparisons.

Firefighters are toned, not gym rat loogins.

[Guest American Woman]

But he just contended--using some pretty convincing examples, particularly the last one--that it wasn't about sexism.

That the phrase clearly exists in a decidedly non-sexist framework would make it a bit coincidental that he discovered this framework after the fact of his indulging in a sexist remark.

It appears as if I'm not the only one who finds it sexist:

House Majority Leader Paul “Skip” Stam suggested that Atkinson “should stick to her own knitting.”

Perhaps the Republican leader has grown weary of hearing the relentless criticism of the GOP action on education, but that type of sexist arrogance has no place in the public discourse.

https://www.reflector.com/opinion/editorials/editorial-stam8217s-sexist-comment-2136093

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Peter MacKay, deputy leader of the Conservative party, has apologized to New Democrat Alexa McDonough for telling her to "stick to her knitting."

MacKay says he has called McDonough personally to apologize.

He also sent a written apology to the offices of the Nova Scotia Advisory Council on the Status of Women and the local women's centre in his riding of Central Nova.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/nova-scotia/mackay-apologizes-for-knitting-comment-1.589797

Edited September 20, 2013 by American Woman