High Salaries for police and firefighters

[cybercoma]

It's quite difficult for a white man to get on the police or fire service now in Canada.

It's difficult for white men, really?

[guyser]

It's difficult for white men, really?

No

It is diffulcult for men,

And women

[Michael Hardner]

It's difficult for white men, really?

Yes, they have a large number of applicants for very few positions out there. It has always been difficult to become a police officer. Edited to add:... in my memory...

[cybercoma]

Yes, they have a large number of applicants for very few positions out there. It has always been difficult to become a police officer. Edited to add:... in my memory...

For white men specifically? That was the comment. Don't try to twist this to be about people generally applying for the job.

[Michael Hardner]

For white men specifically? That was the comment. Don't try to twist this to be about people generally applying for the job.

It's more difficult for white men than for other groups, yes. I'm not sure what you're fishing for here - read further up on the thread maybe to see what we were talking about.

[Michael Hardner]

The point is that people say 'It's almost impossible for someone to get one of these jobs unless they're a minority' which may or may not be true but it's deceiving in any case: the desirability of the job is what makes it near-impossible to get in, not diversity programs.

[guyser]

It's more difficult for white men than for other groups, yes.

How so?

[Michael Hardner]

Other groups are not as interested, I guess. I believe the numbers were posted in an old thread on MLW. I will look for it.

[cybercoma]

Other groups are not as interested, I guess. I believe the numbers were posted in an old thread on MLW. I will look for it.

That makes it more difficult for white men to get jobs there how? Because they're already filled with other white men? I don't follow.

[Michael Hardner]

It's numbers. Something like this:

400 white males apply and 12 females. 20 males are hired and 3 females.

[Argus]

There are economic reasons for this, as well as the basic fact that paying more generally gets you better applicants to a point. It just stands to reason.

The same goes for the civil service - we could pay them minimum wage for basic jobs so why don't we ?

I'm not suggesting we pay them minimum wages, so let's not take things to extremes. I don't want police scrounging for spare change on street corners. It's a good idea to see that they are well-rewarded, even over-rewarded for the work they do. I simply think the pay rate, which is now approaching $100k, has gotten out of line. We certainly don't need to pay that much to get quality applicants. They turn away quality applicants every year.

[Argus]

That makes it more difficult for white men to get jobs there how? Because they're already filled with other white men? I don't follow.

For cultural reasons, the overwhelming number of applicants are white males. Women and visible monirities show very little interest in these jobs. However, most city councils are fairly left of center and continue to push police and fire services to hire more women and visible minorities. Thus those services actively and determinedly seek out visible minority youth and women and try to entice them to join. They offer special classes, particularly physical fitness classes for women, and will select them ahead of better qualfied white male candidates.

Before they changed the rules, qualified applicants used to be placed on a list in order as per how they did on tests. What was seen then is that, say, the top ten on the list were selected, then they would reach down, fifty, eighty, a hundred, two hundred places, to grab women and visible minorities for selection. This, of course, caused a lot of fuss, particularly from white male applicants who were bypassed in favor of, say, a black female applicant who finished two hundred places below him, so they ended the list. They still do it, though. They just don't like to make it quite so obvious.

So if you are a qualified white male applicant you need to get a lot of skills and experience on your resume and be in top notch shape if you want to have any hope of being accepted. If you're a qualified black female applicant you simply need to be black and female.

Edited February 6, 2014 by Argus

[Argus]

It's numbers. Something like this:

400 white males apply and 12 females. 20 males are hired and 3 females.

It's more like 4,000 white males apply, along with 100 visible minority males, and 40 females.

Then 90 white males, along with 60 visible minority males, and 25 females are accepted.

Edited February 6, 2014 by Argus

[Michael Hardner]

I simply think the pay rate, which is now approaching $100k, has gotten out of line. We certainly don't need to pay that much to get quality applicants. They turn away quality applicants every year.

In that case, I agree with you. From what I've read the acceptance rate is something like 5%. They could get as many good applicants by paying less. As I said, though, there are also economic reasons here and fewer and fewer jobs that pay well is a problem.

[Michael Hardner]

It's more like 4,000 white males apply, along with 100 visible minority males, and 40 females.

Then 90 white males, along with 60 visible minority males, and 25 females are accepted.

I got my numbers from a police recruitment chat board. 90/4000 is about 2% acceptance, less than half ow what I was reading. Also the rates for females are twice what I read.

I didn't cite my numbers, because they came from web conversations - however the numbers were given by different people and seemed realistic. If you have a cite for yours, please provide it.

[Jeremy G]

Less then half of police make $100,000. But that is because they only have 4 years of experience. Most people spend the first 4 years of there career in university costing them thousands. OPP will be at $89,000 for someone that has 4 years of work experience. All OPP police officers are getting a 8.5% raise in there salary in 2014 because they have a clause which says they have to be the highest paid police officers.

Once you get 5- 10 years under your belt the police will easily be making $100,000 for a job that requires grade 12 education and 4 months of paid training.

That being said most police officers being hired have college or university degrees.

Here is a link to RCMP salaries-

http://www.rcmp-grc.gc.ca/recruiting-recrutement/rm-mr/rates-taux-eng.htm

Sergeants $98,000

Staff Sergeants $106,000

Inspector $126,000

6% of the population in Canada make over $100,000 a year. When you are a public servant and you make more money then 94% of the population which pays your salary it should be considered an outrage. On top of that you have a guaranteed pension which is only partially funded by the worker.

I have no problem with business owners making large amounts of money. Entrepreneur's are the real hero's. They risk everything to start a business and work 70-80 hours a week. They are the life blood of the economy and create all the jobs that pay your salaries. They have no safety net or guaranties.

As far as being a dangerous career it is not. The facts just don't back it up.

I was looking to see what rate the police pay for WSIB but I can not find it on the list. Here is a link to what works pay for WSIB. The higher the rate the more dangerous the job.

http://www.wsib.on.ca/en/community/WSIB/230/ArticleDetail/24338?vgnextoid=002c768461e8a310VgnVCM100000469c710aRCRD

My father inlaw was a police officer in Metro. He retired in 2004. Worked his entire 30 year career and earned less then $80,000. He is shocked at what they are earning now.

The main reason municipal and regional works salaries have increased so much is because low interest rates has artificially raised home prices. The inflated home prices increased tax revenue and regional budgets. The majority of this increase went to staff salaries.

The problem is there is no catalyst to increase house prices in the future. If house prices fall we will not be able to reduce staff salaries. Are only option will be to reduce the number of staff.

We face a giant challenge and I do not know what we can do to change things or lower salaries, but something needs to be done.

Jeremy Gibson

[Michael Hardner]

Less then half of police make $100,000. But that is because they only have 4 years of experience.

I had no idea that was the rate after 5 years.

Thanks for the information. I'm wondering how much actual work is done here as well. Are there measures of the workload ?

[Wilber]

Just came across this study done by Carlton and Western Universities.

http://www.huffingtonpost.ca/2012/04/24/canada-police-work-life-balance_n_1449571.html

[ironstone]

Actually you do need a specific skill set to be either a cop or a firefighter.

1 - you need to be in shape

2 - you need to have a brain with quick thinking and quick evaluation

Many many other things to consider for these roles.

People will bitch about the cost of some emergency services until they are caught up in a situation demanding the emergency services. I am sure the person saving your ass will appreciate you telling them they are paid too much.

Ignorance, ingnorance ignorance.

Been stated, the firetruck has equipment the paramedics do not have. The best solution I can figure out is to have a paramedic ambulamce AT the firestation to go out when the trucks do. Integrate the two services for better service. Most firefighters are on the scene first, and since most are qualified as paramedics, they can administer much needed first aid right on the spot. In car accidents, the jaws of life as mentioned. Also when on a crash site, the firetruck will act as a barrier to protect the emergency crews from traffic, creating a safe zone for them to work in.

The firefighters I know don't sit around during downtime. Training, checking equipment, ect ect. Plenty of much needed work to be done when the downtime happens.

One of my best friends is a firefighter at the Ottawa airport. I am sure he will gladly let you die in a plane accident if you prefer to wait for paramedics to arrive.

I'll pull out the Shady line of absolute nonesense. When lives are on the line you want that particular skill set that will save your ass. If you are not in good shape, you risk you and your fellow firefigheters lives and the lives you are trying to save.

Police and firefighters put their lives on the line. Pay them accordingly.

Sure military gets paid less, and that is wrong as well. They do see more hazard but they are treated like crap and paid even less based on their job and the risks involved.

The reason firefighting is not as risky in the past is .. procedures, process, protocol and extensive training in assessing situations. Firefighting equipment has come a long way as well. Technology has made it safer, but still is a high risk job.

Anyone willing to throw themselves into a burning building to save others should be paid accordingly.

I think the physical standards for police and firefighters have been lowered to allow more women into the ranks.Even unqualified applicants now have a decent shot thanks to our Human Rights Commissions.

I'm sure they get all the usual perks of the Public Service,like lot's of sick leave and various other kinds of days off for this and that.I would like to see the defined benefit pension plan changed to defined contribution as a start.Any time a contract negotiation goes to arbitration,the arbitrator almost always sides with the union and the ability to pay does not enter into the equation at all.This has to change but don't hold your breath.

As for the 100k figure,I believe it is probably more common than we think.

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/globe-debate/a-nation-of-100000-firefighters/article13647608/

As stated in this link,there are a lot of applicants for openings with the fire department,but they get "retention" payments for not quitting.It's bloody idiotic.

http://ca.news.yahoo.com/blogs/canada-politics/globe-columnist-slams-canadian-firefighters-over-high-salaries-201110067.html

[Wilber]

I think the physical standards for police and firefighters have been lowered to allow more women into the ranks.Even unqualified applicants now have a decent shot thanks to our Human Rights Commissions.

Can you back that up or do you just think it? The POPAT is the same for all, it is competitive and time counts. Just being able to do it isn't good enough.

[Argus]

Can you back that up or do you just think it? The POPAT is the same for all, it is competitive and time counts. Just being able to do it isn't good enough.

What about if you can do it and have breasts?

[Wilber]

What about if you can do it and have breasts?

What about it?

[ironstone]

Can you back that up or do you just think it? The POPAT is the same for all, it is competitive and time counts. Just being able to do it isn't good enough.

http://www.examiner.com/article/police-ag-holder-pressures-city-to-lower-standards-for-minority-recruits

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1375381/Fire-service-strength-fitness-tests-relaxed-allow-women-firefighters.html

http://www.debate.org/debates/Should-police-fire-departments-lower-their-physical-requirements-for-female-recruits/1/

This sort of thing goes on all over the world ,including Canada.And it won't end with fire and police departments either.

Of course women can be great at firefighting or police work.Eventually however,there will be consequences as Human Rights Commissions stick their politically correct noses into every aspect of our daily lives.Please read this following link that perfectly illustrates the absurdity of many of their decisions.

http://www.ezralevant.com/another-day-another-reason-to-end-human-rights-commissions/

[Wilber]

Just dug out my kids JI class in 2005. Out of 36 recruits for 4 lower mainland police departments, 27 were white males, 6 were white females and 3 were non white males. Hardly an accurate representation of out society's diversity. Graduating at the top of the class and voted best classmate by her piers was a female recruit for the VPD.

Considering that females make up half the population, I don't have a problem if physical standards have to be adjusted a bit to accommodate them as long as they are still high enough to do the job properly. Besides, they make good cops. Does anyone seriously think society would be better served by police departments made up entirely of WASP, male ex rugby players? If my WASP, male ex rugby player kid doesn't have any problem working with non WASP and female officers, I don't see why I should be concerned about it.

[Michael Hardner]

Wilbur, what I like best about your post is the numbers that bring clarity to the dissonance between "Don't even apply if you're a white male" and a 75% white male graduation demographic.