Carbon Tax Reduces CO2 Without Harming Economy

[ReeferMadness]

Good thing we have much stricter environmental regulations now than we ever did before.

Where is your evidence of these stricter environmental regulations?

[ReeferMadness]

Do you really want to shut down the modern economy? Or only in the West, letting India and China have us for lunch?

I'm not sure how anyone could "shut down the modern economy". Even putting those words down is silly.

However, there is lots of evidence that wealthy countries are exporting their environmental problems to those very same countries that you worry will have us for lunch.

[GostHacked]

Where is your evidence of these stricter environmental regulations?

I think he is being sarcastic.

[ReeferMadness]

I think he is being sarcastic.

I thought he was pushing the old "Countries with stronger economies have better environments" chestnut.

[jbg]

I thought he was pushing the old "Countries with stronger economies have better environments" chestnut.

Well they do because they perceive they can afford stronger regulations. In many cases, the factories just shut down and move to less regulated or more corrupt venues.

[GostHacked]

Well they do because they perceive they can afford stronger regulations. In many cases, the factories just shut down and move to less regulated or more corrupt venues.

Factories have been moved out of Noth America for some time. So by this the economy is already ruind and CO2 had nothing to do with it in the first place.

[Bryan]

Where is your evidence of these stricter environmental regulations?

Is that a joke? The regulations are constantly increased all the time. The days of being allowed to just dump whatever you want where ever you want are long gone.

There has been a constant tightening of laws (both local and international) with respect to what pollutants are banned out right, the maximum levels that others are allowed at, the degree of filtration that is required, and the security of containment and storage. Emissions are monitored (and enforced) much more stringently.

Whether it's PCBs, CFCs, or DDT, or the weed killer on my lawn, things are MUCH stricter than they used to be.

[ReeferMadness]

Is that a joke? The regulations are constantly increased all the time. The days of being allowed to just dump whatever you want where ever you want are long gone.

There has been a constant tightening of laws (both local and international) with respect to what pollutants are banned out right, the maximum levels that others are allowed at, the degree of filtration that is required, and the security of containment and storage. Emissions are monitored (and enforced) much more stringently.

Whether it's PCBs, CFCs, or DDT, or the weed killer on my lawn, things are MUCH stricter than they used to be.

So, this is it? Your evidence of the "constant tightening of laws" is a couple of chemicals that took decades to ban during the 60's through the 90's? And the banning of the poison you'd like to put on your lawn that continues to evolve (and probably will for another decade or more)?

Wow, sounds like runaway regulation to me.

What about all of the chemicals that have been introduced since?

[ReeferMadness]

Well they do because they perceive they can afford stronger regulations. In many cases, the factories just shut down and move to less regulated or more corrupt venues.

When globalization was in its infancy, environmental and labour groups predicted that companies would relocate to jurisdictions where regulations were less and labour was cheapest, thus putting downward pressure on environmental and labour regulations in developed countries. This was called the race to the bottom.

The idea was poo-pooed by economists at the time but that's exactly what happened.

[jbg]

Factories have been moved out of Noth America for some time. So by this the economy is already ruind and CO2 had nothing to do with it in the first place.

Other environmental regulations, and union power, triggered that.

[GostHacked]

Other environmental regulations, and union power, triggered that.

The economy is ruined and CO2 has little to do with it. Environmental regulations have nothing to do with it either. I mean you and could be charged out the ass for pouring a litre of gasoline down the drain. But when trains, oil rigs blow, and pipes leak, these corps get a slap on the wrist.

[Mighty AC]

A new report out yesterday finds that enforcement of environmental infractions by companies in the Alberta oil sands are 17 times lower than similar infractions reported to the United State's Environmental Protection Agency (EPA).

The report [pdf], authored by the environmental non-profit Global Forest Watch, looked at more than fifteen years of data on recorded environmental mishaps by oil sand's companies, tracking the follow-up actions taken and the final verdict on fines.

The findings are absolutely shocking and put to shame the idea that Canadians care about their natural environment. If we do care, then this report should be a wake up call for us all.

Of the more than 4,000 infractions reported, less than 1-percent (.09 to be exact) received an enforcement action (that would be less than 40 of 4,000). Compare this the US Environmental Protection Agency, who has an enforcement rate of 16% for similar infractions by companies under their Clean Water Act.

http://thecanadian.org/hot-links/item/2233-new-report-less-than-1-percent-of-tar-sands-environmental-infractions-penalized

[FutureCanadian]

A carbon tax that is structure with a revenue neutral income tax rebate seems like a no-brainer. You're taxing something you don't like and cutting taxes on something you do like.

[dre]

Other environmental regulations, and union power, triggered that.

No thats absolute crap. By far the biggest factor is wages. In many cases manufacturers were able to replace 20-30 dollar per hour workers with workers that make under 1 dollar.

[GostHacked]

No thats absolute crap. By far the biggest factor is wages. In many cases manufacturers were able to replace 20-30 dollar per hour workers with workers that make under 1 dollar.

I think what he means is that stricter environmental laws, here in North America coupled with high wages and labour laws, resulted in companies offshoring their manufacturing to places like China.

No worries about polluting the place, no worries about high wages or even paying out benefits.

Step 1 - Offshore production

Step 2 ???

Step 3 - Profit, and lots of it.

[dre]

I think what he means is that stricter environmental laws, here in North America coupled with high wages and labour laws, resulted in companies offshoring their manufacturing to places like China.

No worries about polluting the place, no worries about high wages or even paying out benefits.

Right, and im telling you that the primary driver is wages and the other factors are comparatively tiny. Which is why you see such diversity in the types of operations being offshored. Most of them are not even polluting industries such as manufacturing, etc. Software development, engineering, sewing, accounting, customer service... These companies arent moving for lax environmental regulations, its all about the cheap labor.

[GostHacked]

Right, and im telling you that the primary driver is wages and the other factors are comparatively tiny. Which is why you see such diversity in the types of operations being offshored. Most of them are not even polluting industries such as manufacturing, etc. Software development, engineering, sewing, accounting, customer service... These companies arent moving for lax environmental regulations, its all about the cheap labor.

I agree 100%. Even with part of our IT support outsourced to these countries seems like there really is no cost savings either. In many cases I have to get someone half way around the world to shut down the sever I am physically standing in front of in order to carry out repairs. So it's cheap for them, but then my wage and the IBM tech are getting paid overtime. So in some cases, there really is no money being saved.

[dre]

I agree 100%. Even with part of our IT support outsourced to these countries seems like there really is no cost savings either. In many cases I have to get someone half way around the world to shut down the sever I am physically standing in front of in order to carry out repairs. So it's cheap for them, but then my wage and the IBM tech are getting paid overtime. So in some cases, there really is no money being saved.

Yup these are tough projects and most of them fail, either because the desired cost savings were not realized or because the quality of work product suffered.

[FutureCanadian]

Right, and im telling you that the primary driver is wages and the other factors are comparatively tiny. Which is why you see such diversity in the types of operations being offshored. Most of them are not even polluting industries such as manufacturing, etc. Software development, engineering, sewing, accounting, customer service... These companies arent moving for lax environmental regulations, its all about the cheap labor.

If its manufacturing, I'd beg to differ than transportation to market costs are the biggest factor. A lot of companies that manufacture or assemble products are relocating back to the United States despite the disparity in wages because of these costs. Its fair to note the disparity is not as large as before. Wages in Asia have grown over time while US wages have largely stagnated so that is a factor, but I'm not sure it's THE factor.