TTC Police Shooting

[Guest American Woman]

...is it possible that the use of the taser actually killed him?

I've brought up that question, too; or if the taser could have attributed to his death. I don't understand why the officer who tasered him after he was shot 9 times isn't under investigation; why it's being assumed that the shots killed him. He was alive when taken from the scene, so he didn't 'drop dead' from any of the shots. I, too, would like to know how many shots hit him and where. I'd like the answers to a lot of questions, including whether or not the taser could have contributed to his death.

Edited to add: Also, because the officer who fired the shots initially asked that a taser be brought to the scene, believing, according to reports, that the situation could be contained - what happened to change that in his mind, and result in his firing his weapon?

Edited August 12, 2013 by American Woman

[jacee]

I don't believe they should have been that close, and certainly not in front of the door.

I don't believe a rational response to a verbal command should be expected when clearly dealing with irrational behaviour.

Especially when you give conflicting commands:

"Drop the knife!"

"Don't move!"

Very poorly handled.

Very unnecessary death.

I'm inclined to think the SIU will clear them though, because they usually do. Doesn't mean much anymore.

[jacee]

Edited to add: Also, because the officer who fired the shots initially asked that a taser be brought to the scene, believing, according to reports, that the situation could be contained - what happened to change that in his mind, and result in his firing his weapon?

He gave verbal commands and didn't get the response he wanted, so he shot him 9 times because Yatim wasn't using 'common sense'.

Are police equipped to deal with mental health crisis situations?

Documentary filmmaker says cuts in health system have altered police role

Edited August 12, 2013 by jacee

[cybercoma]

I'm sorry, but if you want me to engage in discussion with you, you're going to have to try to follow what I've had to say - and bring up the intellectual level of your "Officer Trigger Happy" posts a notch or two. Just don't attribute things to me that I haven't said, thank you very much.

He raises a good point that you're completely ignoring.

Deadly force is allowed only where the subject is likely to cause serious harm or death.

So you suggested that the use of deadly force was not permitted when you wrote:

I never said he was likely to cause serious harm or death while he's still in the streetcar. Try reading what I actually say.

If he was not likely to cause serious harm or death while still in the streetcar, then the officer was not permitted to use deadly force while still in the streetcar.

How do justify your support for the officer using deadly force, when you won't admit that the conditions for deadly force were present?

Edited August 12, 2013 by cybercoma

[GostHacked]

As I said before, common sense left the equation once the young man pulled out a knife and his penis on the streetcar……..I will ask, do feel the young man posed any reason once confronted by (armed ) police and was ordered to drop the knife, in other words, would you have a sane reason to confront police with a knife and your penis? I would guess the answer to be no, but them again, you and I are able to cast sound judgement, as such, neither of us would likely have put ourselves in a similar situation….

My penis would be way more of a threat to you than any knife would be. It's more than 3 inches .

And this line is bugging the crap out of me .. English PLEASE.

I will ask, do feel the young man posed any reason once confronted by (armed ) police and was ordered to drop the knife, in other words,

WTF are you saying here?

[Guest Derek L]

My penis would be way more of a threat to you than any knife would be. It's more than 3 inches .

And this line is bugging the crap out of me .. English PLEASE.

WTF are you saying here?

Do you think there is a possibility to reason with a person holding his dink and a knife? In other words, how does one reasons with a kook?

[g_bambino]

No one was being threatened at the time the officer killed him.

No one except the officers he was confronting while wielding a knife.

[Guest American Woman]

He raises a good point that you're completely ignoring.

And I explained why.

So you suggested that the use of deadly force was not permitted when you wrote:

I repeat. I never said he was "likely to use deadly force......"

If he was not likely to cause serious harm or death while still in the streetcar, then the officer was not permitted to use deadly force while still in the streetcar.

We don't know if Yatmin was in the position to cause serious harm or death. I have said repeatedly that we don't know all of the facts. I have not condemned the officer or justified his actions. Again. My stance has always been that we don't have all the information necessary to make a judgment. We weren't there. We were not privy to what the officer was privy to. Again. A sergeant felt the need to use a taser after the shots were fired.

How do justify your support for the officer using deadly force, when you won't admit that the conditions for deadly force were present?

Where have I ever given the officer my support for using deadly force?? Here's a tip. Don't waste your time looking - because I haven't. Edited August 12, 2013 by American Woman

[GostHacked]

Do you think there is a possibility to reason with a person holding his dink and a knife? In other words, how does one reasons with a kook?

Short answer is you have to try. There was no attempt at deescalation, so, the only correct answer here is to gun his ass down. Correct?

So why did the cop put himselve in the danger zone and risk getting knifed? You failed to answer that one, I guess since that is not on the chart, was not thought of .

Police and now changing their tactics because of this incident. Oh right, that was suposed to change some years ago.

http://www.ctvnews.ca/canada/ombudsman-to-launch-formal-probe-after-toronto-streetcar-shooting-1.1402354

Marin said his staff looked at the recommendations that came from coroners’ inquests and other reports dating back to 1994.

“The recommendations coming out of these inquests were almost carbon-copy from each other: increase police training, increase how police defuse situations,” he told reporters. “What’s happened to all of these recommendations in 20 years? Have they been gathering dust in some bin somewhere?”

Also the dead kid was not a kook, but apparantly had some mental health issues. Police should be trained to notice the difference and then deescalate accordingly.

Title of this video is incorrect as this shows HOW a take down can happen without killing or beating the crap out of someone.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6rYp0Ub9iEs

Derek, just man up, admit you are wrong and we can move on. No need to ebmarrass yourself further.

[Rue]

WTF are you saying here?

WTF I am saying is there are a lot of assumptions being made on how a police officer is supposed to behave when confronted with someone with a knife.

WTF I am saying is new evidence shows the same police officer who shot him warned him no to move forward 5 times before shooting him and now shows Yatim was shot after moving forward.

WTF I am saying is some of you like Blackdog have made assumptions as to how people with knives will behave and necessarily how mentally ill people behave and that you can stereotype their behaviour into categories of immediate and general threat,

WTF I am saying is that is all nonsense.

WTF I am saying is having been taught to try defend myself that none of the experts I know in hand to hand or martial arts have ever claimed

to be an expert in knowing a guaranteed technique. At best they are aware of a wide range of techniques and no one who trains anyone would suggest

there is one way to defend in a hand to hand scenario,

WTF I am saying is a person who is acting mentally unstable and showing his penis and pointing a knife and making threatening statements is not

some sweet innocent boy with an eccentricity-its as hot a situation as it gets.

WTF I am saying is it looks like this officer did what he was trained to do from the next two tapes I have now seen and many of you have an issue

with his training but are blaming him for the training he got.

WTF I am saying is each time any of you make an assumption as Blackdog did about what is obvious-you simply express a subjective opinion.

WTF I am saying is wait. Cool off and wait. There will be proper analysis done at the appropriate time.

[Guest Derek L]

Short answer is you have to try. There was no attempt at deescalation, so, the only correct answer here is to gun his ass down. Correct?

So why did the cop put himselve in the danger zone and risk getting knifed? You failed to answer that one, I guess since that is not on the chart, was not thought of .

Police and now changing their tactics because of this incident. Oh right, that was suposed to change some years ago.

And how do you try?

As I said about distance, many times, the placement of the officers was ensure that the young man didn’t leave the streetcar………..

As to your link, did you read it?

Marin said the investigation will look at how police agencies across the province train officers to respond to conflict situations, and whether the ministry should consider implementing a province-wide standard.

Look at the possibility of changing……..

Also the dead kid was not a kook, but apparantly had some mental health issues. Police should be trained to notice the difference and then deescalate accordingly.

What gave that away?

Title of this video is incorrect as this shows HOW a take down can happen without killing or beating the crap out of someone.

And I'm sure if I was so inclined I could find youtube of knife wielding nuts stabbing and slashing folks armed with guns......what's your point?

Derek, just man up, admit you are wrong and we can move on. No need to ebmarrass yourself further.

I'm not wrong.......as I said, go ahead, bookmark this thread and we'll revisit it once the investigation is complete.......

[GostHacked]

And how do you try?

Many, including me had proposed ways to detain and deescalate. 1

As I said about distance, many times, the placement of the officers was ensure that the young man didn’t leave the streetcar………..

You still have not answered why the cop would put himselve in the danger zone? Why not use the cop car to block the doors of the streetcar? Cars can be replaced, people cannot.

Shoot first, taser second. Why?

As to your link, did you read it?

Yes, and apparantly these kinds of concerns were raised back in 1994, almost 30 years ago.

Look at the possibility of changing……..

The change should have happened decades ago.

And I'm sure if I was so inclined I could find youtube of knife wielding nuts stabbing and slashing folks armed with guns......what's your point?

You could find just that, I am sure of it. Would not help with this case, as there was people on the bus, and he did not harm anyone, and yet the only victim we have here is the kid with the knife.

I'm not wrong.......as I said, go ahead, bookmark this thread and we'll revisit it once the investigation is complete.......

Please forgive me, I have no faith that there will be any justice here at all. The investigation will go exactly your way, and we know exactly why. Corruption among police and government oversight is non existant. You may end up being right here, but you would still be wrong.

If the change was to happen, it would have happened decades ago.

Edited August 12, 2013 by GostHacked

[Guest Derek L]

Many, including me had proposed ways to detain and deescalate. 1

Perhaps, but they all seem born out of Hollywood.........

You still have not answered why the cop would put himselve in the danger zone?

I did, in the passage you quoted above as most recent....

Why not use the cop car to block the doors of the streetcar?

The Streetcars don't have push-out fire exit windows?

Cars can be replaced, people cannot.

Hence the usage of lethal force.

Shoot first, taser second. Why?

Assumptions to that have already been provided.

Yes, and apparantly these kinds of concerns were raised back in 1994, almost 30 years ago.

And what were the concerns?

The change should have happened decades ago.

Says who? The Ombudsman has not reached a conclusion yet.

You could find just that, I am sure of it. Would not help with this case, as there was people on the bus, and he did not harm anyone, and yet the only victim we have here is the kid with the knife.

Simple concept.....if he didn't pull out a knife and his dink, his night would likely have ended different.....

Please forgive me, I have no faith that there will be any justice here at all. The investigation will go exactly your way, and we know exactly why. Corruption among police and government oversight is non existant. You may end up being right here, but you would still be wrong.

If the change was to happen, it would have happened decades ago.

I'm glad you've "maned up".......

[GostHacked]

Perhaps, but they all seem born out of Hollywood.........

Your answers are straight out of a crooked lawyers play book that sits in the back pocket of the police.

The Streetcars don't have push-out fire exit windows?

Ever ride a bus or a streetcar or a bus? Yes, and in most cases you need BOTH hands to push the window out. You are telling me that cops cannot surround and detain a suspect and the only option is to kill them?

Hence the usage of lethal force.

So since the car can be replaced, why not try that first? Easier and cheaper to reload the magazine?

Assumptions to that have already been provided.

And what were the concerns?

How to deescalate a situation. Reading comprehension issues perhaps?

Says who? The Ombudsman has not reached a conclusion yet.

The conclusion they made 30 years ago? Better police training to deescalate the situation. You know some of the same things they are proposing this time, that will never get implemented only to have another incident like this years later and we go through this ring around the rosie one more time?

Simple concept.....if he didn't pull out a knife and his dink, his night would likely have ended different.....

What is the obsession with the dick now? The knife was not enough of a threat? Scared of a flacid phallus? Sorry for the ad homemin, but is your love of guns perhaps compensating for something?

I'm glad you've "maned up".......

I've only manned up because I know the system is crooked and this cop won't see a day of jail time. Unlike some, I am not apologetic to a corrupt system that gets people killed by cops who happen to be trigger happy. And if you are claiming about the accurracy of the firearm at that range, then it's very clear the cop then put the public in danger.

Edited August 12, 2013 by GostHacked

[Guest Derek L]

Your answers are straight out of a crooked lawyers play book that sits in the back pocket of the police.

Oh...ok

Ever ride a bus or a streetcar or a bus? Yes, and in most cases you need BOTH hands to push the window out. You are telling me that cops cannot surround and detain a suspect and the only option is to kill them?

So he puts his dink & knife down to open the window, opens the window and picks-up said dink & knife and exits the Streetcar......And him outside of the streetcar is better how?

So since the car can be replaced, why not try that first? Easier and cheaper to reload the magazine?

Because the "car option" is unrealistic........and poorly thought out I might add

How to deescalate a situation. Reading comprehension issues perhaps?

Concerns of some within the public, as I said, the ombudsman has yet to come to a conclusion……

The conclusion they made 30 years ago? Better police training to deescalate the situation. You know some of the same things they are proposing this time, that will never get implemented only to have another incident like this years later and we go through this ring around the rosie one more time?

So a conclusions they made 30 years ago is applicable in this case……..wow, can we do that in all trials…..sure save tons of time and money

What is the obsession with the dick now? The knife was not enough of a threat? Scared of a flacid phallus? Sorry for the ad homemin, but is your love of guns perhaps compensating for something?

A physical illustration of poor little Sammy’s mental state, a mater of contention when the pitchfork crowds that suggest that police should have just “talked to him” ….maybe gave him a hug.

I've only manned up because I know the system is crooked and this cop won't see a day of jail time. Unlike some, I am not apologetic to a corrupt system that gets people killed by cops who happen to be trigger happy. And if you are claiming about the accurracy of the firearm at that range, then it's very clear the cop then put the public in danger.

Well no he didn't, based on the elevation of his gun, as too his partner that also had a gun drawn.......any other officers (as can be seen in the video) that would have drawn their guns, with Sammy bisecting them, would clearly have put the public at risk..........And I'll bet that comes out in the final report as to why only two officers had their guns drawn....

Edited August 12, 2013 by Derek L

[Boges]

Police Chief Blair, today, has announced an inquiry into a Police's Use of Force. Clearly this is in response to the Yatim shooting.

Though the Yatim shooting is being looked at separately by the SIU, this inquiry lead, not by a police expert but a judge (same guy who did the Walkerton inquiry) into policies the police use regarding use of force.

Edited August 12, 2013 by Boges

[Guest Derek L]

Police Chief Blair, today, has announced an inquiry into a Police's Use of Force. Clearly this is in response to the Yatim shooting.

Though the Yatim shooting is being looked at separately by the SIU, this inquiry lead, not by a police expert but a judge (same guy who did the Walkerton inquiry) into policies the police use regarding use of force.

Sure, it's called getting out front of an (non)issue.........

[Boges]

Sure, it's called getting out front of an (non)issue.........

You think the Chief would call an inquiry and say and I quote him "We are prepared to make changes" to get out in front of a "non-issue"?

Were Walkerton and the Maher Arar inquiries also non-issues?

Edited August 12, 2013 by Boges

[Guest Derek L]

You think the Chief would call an inquiry and say and I quote him "We are prepared to make changes" to get out in front of a "non-issue"?

Sure, a police chief of a large city is just as much a political position as Mayor, Premier or Prime Minister……As you said, he’s prepared to make changes if required, which is far from an admission of guilt or wrongdoing.

Were Walkerton and the Maher Arar inquiries also non-issues?

Apples, oranges and bananas....

[GostHacked]

So he puts his dink & knife down to open the window, opens the window and picks-up said dink & knife and exits the Streetcar......And him outside of the streetcar is better how?

And while he has the knife down??? You as a cop are just gonna stand there? Or is it only prudent to get in the danger zone when he has the knife in his hand? Otherwise, back off?

Cops are trained to think of options and adjust tactics accordingly.

Well no he didn't, based on the elevation of his gun, as too his partner that also had a gun drawn.......any other officers (as can be seen in the video) that would have drawn their guns, with Sammy bisecting them, would clearly have put the public at risk..........And I'll bet that comes out in the final report as to why only two officers had their guns drawn....

I like how you play stupid for the rest of the argument but yet seem to have very clear insight on that small portion of the whole incident. Quite telling.

[Boges]

Sure, a police chief of a large city is just as much a political position as Mayor, Premier or Prime Minister……As you said, he’s prepared to make changes if required, which is far from an admission of guilt or wrongdoing.

I never said it was, but even if said officer was completely in the right, policy wise, in shooting Yatim, his shooting has caused sufficient outrage that the police force seems to be looking to change their policies. Ultimately the public is the boss of the police, not the other way around.

Apples, oranges and bananas....

Perhaps, but those are the two other inquiries the judge in question has presided over. So, I'd argue, this inquiry is a big deal for the Police Force and how they conduct their business.

Edited August 12, 2013 by Boges

[Guest Derek L]

And while he has the knife down??? You as a cop are just gonna stand there? Or is it only prudent to get in the danger zone when he has the knife in his hand? Otherwise, back off?

And well he has his knife down what? Didn't you just say the doors were blocked by police cars........Sheesh......

Cops are trained to think of options and adjust tactics accordingly.

Tailored made plans go out the window with a crazy person………

I like how you play stupid for the rest of the argument but yet seem to have very clear insight on that small portion of the whole incident. Quite telling.

Isn't it

[Guest Derek L]

I never said it was, but even if said officer was completely in the right in shooting Yatim, his shooting has caused sufficient outrage that the police force may look to change their policies. Ultimately the public is the boss of the police, not the other way around.

This is very true, as such, the (political) police chief coming out saying that Toronto police are prepared to make changes if required will placate the majority of the public……..who will then go onto their daily lives and individual concerns…..Doing this will quell the issue for most, well taking any steam out of the ombudsman’s investigation that will probably take a year+ …..hence getting out front of the issue.

Perhaps, but those are the two other inquiries the judge in question has presided over. So, I'd argue, this inquiry is a big deal for the Police Force and how they conduct their business.

So, the Judge has a certain level of credibility with the public…….so if in a few months the Judge comes out and says that though tragic, the police were in the right and this is a tragic reality that police have to confront on a daily basis and the Province of Ontario needs to address public mental health issues and inner city youth violence to prevent future incidents…blah..blah…blah…most of the public will be good with that........

[Boges]

so if in a few months the Judge comes out and says that though tragic, the police were in the right and this is a tragic reality that police have to confront on a daily basis and the Province of Ontario needs to address public mental health issues and inner city youth violence to prevent future incidents…blah..blah…blah…most of the public will be good with that........

And of course you can predict this will happen because. . . ?

In once sentence you say that the public will be satisfied by an inquiry but then say that you think nothing will come of it because the police were right. How will that achieve any satisfaction?

A ruling on if the officer will be charged or not is expected by the end of the month, far earlier than any investigation from this judge.

Edited August 12, 2013 by Boges

[Guest Derek L]

And of course you can predict this will happen because. . . ?

Precedent.

In once sentence you say that the public will be satisfied by an inquiry but then say that you think nothing will come of it because the police were right. How will that achieve any satisfaction?

I didn't say all the public, just most........As to satisfaction, I think most of the public don’t really give a shit and when the police department’s side, maybe even the Streetcar CCTV footage (If any?) is released in a few months, most will have forgotten the issue…..

A ruling on if the officer will be charged or not is expected by the end of the month, far earlier than any investigation from this judge.

And when he's cleared, are you good with that?