TTC Police Shooting

[Rue]

BTW the family has said Yatim had no history of mental illness.

Interesting since the father stated to the press he send his son out of the home for being out of control.

Interesting since the father made it clear he found his son's anger and overall behaviour dangerous and out of control.

[Rue]

Now that Blackdog has done his usual response I wish to clarify two things. Blackdog is classic of someone who comes

on this forum and provides subjective opinions as facts, and makes allegations he can not back up and has no clue about

mental illness or hand to hand training.

Since he wishes to get personal with me yet again which I oh so adore when he does that I will tell him once again, I do not

flaunt my training but I have it. I did volunteer and was taught hand to hand in an armed forces and I was no good at it

and faired better at peeling potatoes and cleaning infected toes or unclogging toilets. Its precisely why I know better and would

not make such I idiotic comments about general and specific dangers and claim its obvious which is which when dealing

with an unstable person.

I have worked as an orderly in a mental hospital, a mediator in the family court system and went back to school long after

being a lawyer to get Master's degrees in Applied Psychology-Counseling and Health Law.

I spent 8 years counseling victims of violence and over 10 years mediating domestic violence.

So for Blackdog to state I make this up I laugh. Its the same level as once coming on this board during another debate

and suggesting I was a pedophile then denying that saying he was only being sarcastic.

Blackdog's opinions are everything I loath about the public. Presumption, arrogance, intolerance, bigoted, the words of

an extremist who can see nothing but his own opinions as being truth while posing as enlightened and progressive-in short

everything wrong today about a certain segment of so called leftists who think they are the only ones on this planet who get anything.

I pull no punches. Anyone who thinks they know what this officer did wrong is full of it you do not.

We can come on this forum and comment after the fact but our perspectives are limited to one tape and that

tape is not sufficient to tell the story.

Blackdog typifies why a little but of knowledge is dangerous. It enables people like him to spew hatred against all police

in the guise of criticizing one officer. He makes sweeping ignorant statements about violence and mental illness.

He makes sweeping and ignorant statements about how to define violent behaviour and mental illness, let alone spew myths

about hand to hand combat and the capacity of any human to defend itself when faced close up with a knife.

Now I will repeat it once again for him because his arrogance numbs him to the possibility of any opinion or perspective other than his own.

Blackdog think before you name call. Think before you generalize and slur. That officer, in your mind may be a murderer and you may

only see black and white, a dead person and the person who killed him, but there is another perspective other than your rigid

black and white hateful concept of this officer.

There is a dead young man. There is also an officer who you don't know. You never met him. You do not know what he thinks,what he feels, what is happening to him at this very moment. Oh you have it all figured. He is a murderer you can justify scorning.

Guess what. I see a human. I see a human who may have engaged in excessive force or in fact may have simply reacted the way he was trained and therefore is not the problem-he is just the scapegoat for you for a training issue.

That is why I said, it may be he did nothing wrong and what the issue is-is the way police are trained to deal with such situations-hating this officer-putting him at a lower moral base than the deceased is precisely what I would expect from you-it is precisely the kind of

irrational emotional distortion you place in your criticism of people. You presume what is morally correct and wrong and you judge.

Hear me loud and clear-you will not judge him. People like you are a dime a dozen. You show up after a death with torches demanding

a lynching. That is all you are, yet another lynch mob demanding a lynching and what makes it hilarious is you dare cloak yourself in

a flag of tolerant righteousness. What a joke.

This officer acted. For you to make the statements you did are past laughable. It is precisely why we have a legal system to prevent people like you from ever being able to judge anyone.

The closest you are going to get to such issues Blackdog is on your laptop. Real life has already passed you by.

This officer is having to live with what he did. If any of you think he is sitting there not regretting what he did you are

wrong. Dead wrong.

You are also dead wrong to think its possible to know how any of us will react in the moment especially someone with training.

[Rue]

So was he a threat to the folks on the Streetcar?

So should police have waited until he stabbed an officer?

Sure I have, you know, the part where it shows the police will use lethal force when confronted with an armed man.

In the world of some, pointing one's penis at people is not an issue, neither is pointing a knife at people at the same time and threatening to kill them.

In the world of some, a father who can no longer handle his son and who expels him from his home because he is out of control can be represented on this forum as having no previous knowledge his son had mental issues.

In the world of some, we presume the officer could have- should have and then make up could have should haves depending on how hissy our mood is that day.

In the world of some, we make believe such as inventing concepts of general and specific danger, and where unstable behaviour is obviously predictable.

Its quite the world.

Oz it is called.

Now of course in Oz they just adore Judy Garland. She is quite a folk hero.

Now my Oz is the other one... the one where men spew their fluid after playing with themselves in the direction of guards and hump, bite, kick, punch, tear, spit at anything that moves.

Now Derek. don't get me wrong but I think the devout followers of Judy Garland's Oz on this forum who are also experts on mental illness and hand to hand combat think that hand to hand combat consists of a bitch slap.

What it would take to get some of them into the other land of Oz I do not know but I would love to take some of them

and leave them face to face with a tattoo boy coming at them with a knife.

Lol.

Call me a cynic but to try get some of them to comprehend there is another kind of Oz is pointless. Life begins and ends with Judy Garland singing about Rainbows.

Edited August 11, 2013 by Rue

[jacee]

Exactly, and according to the above chart, what instances can police forces legally use lethal force?

Don't be ridiculous.

You're trying to pretend that police were justified in killing him because he previously had frightened the people on the streetcar?

No one was being threatened at the time the officer killed him.

You are acting "dim", and it is scary to think that you are a gun nut and could possibly have some role in any such situations.

Edited August 11, 2013 by jacee

[jacee]

Interesting since the father stated to the press he send his son out of the home for being out of control.

Interesting since the father made it clear he found his son's anger and overall behaviour dangerous and out of control.

I don't recall reading that his father found him "dangerous". Do you have a link?

[GostHacked]

Exactly, and according to the above chart, what instances can police forces legally use lethal force?

Hot damn, a chart! How about some common sense? Sorry, that's not on the chart. Neither is deescalation.

[Guest Derek L]

Call me a cynic but to try get some of them to comprehend there is another kind of Oz is pointless. Life begins and ends with Judy Garland singing about Rainbows.

I don't doubt many folks opinions are shaped by what they see on tv or in the movies.

[ReeferMadness]

I don't doubt many folks opinions are shaped by what they see on tv or in the movies.

Oh, you mean like when a guy armed with nothing more than a knife is seen as a mortal threat to 22 armed cops?

Nah, even Hollywood couldn't be that stupid.

Edited August 11, 2013 by ReeferMadness

[Guest Derek L]

Hot damn, a chart! How about some common sense? Sorry, that's not on the chart. Neither is deescalation.

As I said before, common sense left the equation once the young man pulled out a knife and his penis on the streetcar……..I will ask, do feel the young man posed any reason once confronted by (armed ) police and was ordered to drop the knife, in other words, would you have a sane reason to confront police with a knife and your penis? I would guess the answer to be no, but them again, you and I are able to cast sound judgement, as such, neither of us would likely have put ourselves in a similar situation….

[Guest Derek L]

Oh, you mean like when a guy armed with nothing more than a knife is seen as a mortal threat to 22 armed cops?

Nah, even Hollywood couldn't be that stupid.

Are you suggesting that he was not a threat due to 22 police firearms? If the police were unarmed, would he then be considered a threat in your view?

[jacee]

As I said before, common sense left the equation once the young man pulled out a knife and his penis on the streetcar..I will ask, do feel the young man posed any reason once confronted by (armed ) police and was ordered to drop the knife, in other words, would you have a sane reason to confront police with a knife and your penis? I would guess the answer to be no, but them again, you and I are able to cast sound judgement, as such, neither of us would likely have put ourselves in a similar situation.

Nobody said he was sane or using "common sense".

In fact, it's entirely irrelevant whether he was sane, strung out on drugs, having an allergic reaction, reacting to a traumatic event, or whatever.

He was not behaving rationally.

Police can't shoot someone just because they're behaving irrationally.

Police are trained to deescalate situations where people are behaving irrationally ...

Aren't they?

Clearly you're not.

Irrational people do not respond rationally to police commands.

A verbal command followed by a bullet isn't good enough.

Edited August 11, 2013 by jacee

[jacee]

Are you suggesting that he was not a threat due to 22 police firearms? If the police were unarmed, would he then be considered a threat in your view?

He was not a threat to police unless they stupidly approached close enough to put themselves in danger.

[ReeferMadness]

Are you suggesting that he was not a threat due to 22 police firearms? If the police were unarmed, would he then be considered a threat in your view?

I'm suggesting that you go back to that use of force chart you keep posting and read it. In order for deadly force to be justified, the subject must be "likely to inflict serious bodily harm or death". In this case, Sammy would have had to emerge from the streetcar and come down the stairs with 2 cops with their guns trained on him. And if that isn't enough, there's another 20 milling around with their thumbs up their butts. He has to come through the streetcar door so that's the only point they have to control. It's ridiculous to say that he's likely to cause serious harm or death while he's still in the streetcar. Only you and AW seem oblivious to this.

[Guest American Woman]

It's ridiculous to say that he's likely to cause serious harm or death while he's still in the streetcar. Only you and AW seem oblivious to this.

I never said he was likely to cause serious harm or death while he's still in the streetcar. Try reading what I actually say.

[Guest Derek L]

I'm suggesting that you go back to that use of force chart you keep posting and read it. In order for deadly force to be justified, the subject must be "likely to inflict serious bodily harm or death". In this case, Sammy would have had to emerge from the streetcar and come down the stairs with 2 cops with their guns trained on him. And if that isn't enough, there's another 20 milling around with their thumbs up their butts. He has to come through the streetcar door so that's the only point they have to control. It's ridiculous to say that he's likely to cause serious harm or death while he's still in the streetcar. Only you and AW seem oblivious to this.

And how long would that taken? As has been said prior in this thread, A person can cover that distance in a couple of seconds……And yes, two officers did have their weapons drawn, and as said prior, reacting and acknowledging that the subject is moving, then taking aim at a moving target would then, to ensure no threat to officers, have to take place inside the couple of seconds it would have taken for the young man to advance and stab/slash one of the nearby officers…….

The armed young man, as can be seen in the video, started moving towards the door and the officers beyond and the officer reacted as per, and as highlighted in the above chart, his training.

[jacee]

It's ridiculous to say that he's likely to cause serious harm or death while he's still in the streetcar. Only you and AW seem oblivious to this.

True. But they're not the experts.

Ross McLean: "This did not look at all like a good tactical takedown."

Edited August 11, 2013 by jacee

[Guest American Woman]

True. But they're not the experts.

Ross McLean: "This did not look at all like a good tactical takedown."

Again. "They" never said any such thing.

Good Lord.

[ReeferMadness]

I never said he was likely to cause serious harm or death while he's still in the streetcar. Try reading what I actually say.

Read the use of force chart. Deadly force is allowed only where the subject is likely to cause serious harm or death.

Or are you abandoning Officer Trigger Happy?

[Guest American Woman]

Read the use of force chart. Deadly force is allowed only where the subject is likely to cause serious harm or death.

Or are you abandoning Officer Trigger Happy?

I'm sorry, but if you want me to engage in discussion with you, you're going to have to try to follow what I've had to say - and bring up the intellectual level of your "Officer Trigger Happy" posts a notch or two. Just don't attribute things to me that I haven't said, thank you very much.

[jacee]

And how long would that taken? As has been said prior in this thread, A person can cover that distance in a couple of seconds

Then why did police put themselves within that distance?

Why put themselves in danger when they knew they were waiting for a taser?

Bad call. Bad outcome.

[jacee]

Again. "They" never said any such thing.

Good Lord.

Sammy Yatim was never out of the streetcar, was never a threat to police if they had followed procedure, stayed back and waited for the taser.

[Guest Derek L]

Then why did police put themselves within that distance?

Why put themselves in danger when they knew they were waiting for a taser?

Bad call. Bad outcome.

To attempt to contain the subject and the streetcar......clearly as can be seen in the video, the police didn't attempt to enter the streetcar, but the armed man did start moving towards the door and police......And that is why this police officer will be cleared of all wrongdoing.

[Guest American Woman]

Sammy Yatim was never out of the streetcar, was never a threat to police if they had followed procedure, stayed back and waited for the taser.

So you keep saying - so I'll keep pointing out that until the investigation is completed, we don't know all that happened. Or why. Again. A sergeant used a taser after the shots were fired. I'd like to know why.

You speak of Derek and me not being "experts," even though my stance has consistently been that we can't make a judgement without all of the information, so I'll point out to you that you are no expert and are in no position to make such a judgement call.

[Guest Derek L]

Sammy Yatim was never out of the streetcar, was never a threat to police if they had followed procedure, stayed back and waited for the taser.

So if the officer(s) had of waited several more seconds and Sammy had of left the streetcar armed, you'd have no issue with police then being forced to shoot him on the street?

[Guest Derek L]

So out of curiosity I decided to look-up a few numbers to try and determine how far the young man was actually from police……..So looking at this spilt screen video, at the point that “Sammy” is shot atop the stairs of the streetcar well advancing towards officers, it can clearly be seen that several officers are standing between the edge of the parking lane and the curb, including the officer that discharged his weapon:

So my question, what is the actual width of a parking lane in the City of Toronto? Well looking here:

http://www.rnbc.info/Press%20Room/Bicycle%20Lane%20Widths%20MMM%20Report/Appendix%20A_Lane%20Width%20Guides%20for%20various%20Municipalities.pdf

It states 1.8-2 meters or 5' to 6 1/2', so add that to Sammy being roughly in the middle of the streetcar, he's at most 10'-12' away from officers when he is shot.........

Another thing, as I brought up earlier, when the initial shots are fired, the officer’s gun is only at a slight upward trajectory, from ~12 feet away, at a young man standing in the streetcar……From this, and watching the video several more times and seeing the way in which his body crumples near instantly after the first three shots, I’m of the assumption that of the initial shots, at least one hit “Sammy” in the pelvis/hip to make him drop so rapidly in the position that he was standing……..If this is the case, though an extremely painful gunshot wound, and very possibly lethal if the bullet cut the femoral artery and the person was aloud to bleed out, a wound that would still allow the young man to think and swing a knife…….

Now again, looking at the image between volleys of fire, looking past the often brought up leg twitch, one can see that based on how his legs are situated, his body above the waist is shielded to a degree behind the door/stairwell/front right seats from officers, as such he makes an extremely small target for the officer on the street, well also obscuring his physical state to all officers at street level……..And as officers approach, as the first one starts entering the streetcar, one can see the physical reaction of officers, coupled with the verbal response, to “Sammy” still holding a knife……..As can be heard several times prior to getting the taser, the officers are still ordering him to drop the knife……..

So this all still begs the question(s), as I have said numerous times, how many shots hit him and where? Also, is it possible that the use of the taser actually killed him?

Edited August 12, 2013 by Derek L