Law and Order in America

[Guest Derek L]

Yes....based on such numbers, Asians have the lowest crime rate, and should be alarmed by so much "white" crime !

Indeed:

And without looking, I’ll hazard a guess that Blacks and Hispanics are over represented within American prison systems…………..

So, why is that? Like I said above, are the cops & courts bigots or are these ethnic groups influenced more by the negative factors in society that lead to crime? ie unemployment, lack of education, lousy parenting etc

Clearly looking at the Canadian numbers alone, it would suggest our (White) legal systems isn’t bigoted towards Asians……..So what gives?

[Michael Hardner]

... a claim that I assumed would be widely accepted and non-controversial, Michael.

I get that. Also, I'm often surprised to find out what others find controversial.

[Guest American Woman]

It seems apparent that some amongst the police would prefer to find ways of suppressing cell-phone video than improve their behavior.

Or perhaps some amongst the police would just prefer people not to be videotaping them as they are trying to do their job. Interesting that you would put a completely negative connotation on the behavior of all police officers who would prefer not to be videotaped by every cell phone out there; especially considering how people can edit and/or present things to look different than they actually were - not to mention streaming such videos can interfere with their job.

Nut getting back to the original opening post - I wonder how many people stop to think of how many police officers have been killed in the line of duty during what would be considered non-threatening, routine police encounters? I'm sure the officers in situations that we criticize, with the benefit of hindsight 20-20 vision, might feel a bit differently at the time of the occurrence.

I find the outrageous reporting of this incident by so many media outlets on the internet, and the acceptance of said reporting by so many, who are actually jumping on the bandwagon, to be no better than what the police are being accused of.

A good example, IMO, is the comment in the opening post regarding the news coverage by Fox and CBS-DC - apparently Fox downplayed it, while CBS gave "the actual facts." Evidently Scotty was there, since he knows what "the actual facts" are. But having said that, one can present "actual facts" in such a way as to skew the story, such as saying "a police officer jumped on the hood of her car" without mentioning that she was attempting to drive away at the time. And of course her account, everything she claims, is "alleged," but to hear tell from people who weren't there, it's "the actual facts."

[GostHacked]

Ok - we can probably use something more substantial to kick off the discussion then, right ?

Do some of your own homework Mike.

Simple searches like 'police brutality' will get you enough results to get even the most wimpy pacifist pissed off.

Edited July 2, 2013 by GostHacked

[GostHacked]

Or perhaps some amongst the police would just prefer people not to be videotaping them as they are trying to do their job. Interesting that you would put a completely negative connotation on the behavior of all police officers who would prefer not to be videotaped by every cell phone out there; especially considering how people can edit and/or present things to look different than they actually were - not to mention streaming such videos can interfere with their job.

When out in the public, you can expect to be video taped. That goes equally for the police as well as the citizens.

Like the one Kimmy posted about the guys dog being shot ON SITE while arresting the man who was recroding video at a distance. How does recording them from the sidelines interfere with their job?

If a camera is intefering with a police officers duty I will prompty request that all public CCTV be removed.

Nut getting back to the original opening post - I wonder how many people stop to think of how many police officers have been killed in the line of duty during what would be considered non-threatening, routine police encounters? I'm sure the officers in situations that we criticize, with the benefit of hindsight 20-20 vision, might feel a bit differently at the time of the occurrence.

This is a good one, because more people die from police actions than terrorists. Al-Queda is the least of your concerns.

[Guest American Woman]

This is a good one, because more people die from police actions than terrorists. Al-Queda is the least of your concerns.

First of all, I'd appreciate a cite for your claim. Secondly, the police don't randomly go after people the way terrorists do. Last but not least, police officers save American lives. Al Qaeda, not so much. But I'll wait for a link to your source before I comment further.

Edited July 2, 2013 by American Woman

[bush_cheney2004]

First of all, I'd appreciate a cite for your claim. Secondly, the police don't randomly go after people the way terrorists do. Last but not least, police officers save American lives. Al Qaeda, not so much. But I'll wait for a link to your source before I comment further.

Looks like there were about 350 police related homicides in 2004 according to FBI stats, which is an order of magnitude less than those killed by terrorists in 2001. I'm sticking with the cops over terrorists....terrorists can find more love in Canada !

[Guest American Woman]

Looks like there were about 350 police related homicides in 2004 according to FBI stats, which is an order of magnitude less than those killed by terrorists in 2001. I'm sticking with the cops over terrorists....terrorists can find more love in Canada !

Do you know many were innocent bystanders vs. people engaging in criminal activity?

[bush_cheney2004]

Do you know many were innocent bystanders vs. people engaging in criminal activity?

Some were mistaken as perps at the scene, others were killed because of mistaken threats to the police officer(s). Some police homicides are actually "suicide by cop".

This wiki page links to a very detailed list of all non-military, law enforcement related homicides in the U.S. by year. Looks like the average is about 400:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_killings_by_law_enforcement_officers_in_the_United_States

Edited July 2, 2013 by bush_cheney2004

[Michael Hardner]

Do some of your own homework Mike.

Actually, it's part of the site rules that you need to be prepared to back up your assertions. I appreciate the fact that the moderators do not want to create an environment where lazy assertions can be made, and others are expected to research them after the OP.

[GostHacked]

First of all, I'd appreciate a cite for your claim. Secondly, the police don't randomly go after people the way terrorists do. Last but not least, police officers save American lives. Al Qaeda, not so much. But I'll wait for a link to your source before I comment further.

http://www.cato.org/blog/youre-eight-times-more-likely-be-killed-police-officer-terrorist

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_killings_by_law_enforcement_officers_in_the_United_States

So killing more people than Al-Queda is saving lives? If you want to simply look at the death count.

I will grant you that many may have intentionally provoked the cops, but that does not excuse the police brutality on many innocent civilians and the rise in police brutality cases. Something is quire rotten within the police hierarchy of many police units around the country.

But since this is about the USA, I will say that Canada sure does have it's own problems. We discussed at lenght things like the G-20 and Montebello summits as examples here in Canada.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/05/15/david-silva-police_n_3280663.html

The death of a 33-year-old father of four at the hands of the police in Bakersfield, California, is raising questions after witnesses, some of whom recorded the beating on their cell phones, said the use of force was unjustified.

Police say they responded to a report of an intoxicated man outside Kern Medical Center, according to the Bakersfield Californian. When they encountered David Sal Silva, police say he resisted arrest and they responded by striking the man with their batons.

And this reaction to video being taken has been happening more frequently.

The episode turned even more controversial after the police confiscated the cell phones of two witnesses who recorded the altercation. When they returned the cell phones, one of the videos had been erased, witnesses Laura Vasquez and Melissa Quair told the Los Angeles Times.

I believe that might stand up in a court under 'destroying evidence of a crime'.

http://www.cnn.com/2013/05/14/us/california-police-altercation-death

Protect and serve?

For the man who was arrested and dog shot ..... What kind of excuse can one make for arresting the person filming the cops and getting arrested AND his dog shot to death right there. I would love to hear anything remotely justifying the cops actions.

[GostHacked]

Actually, it's part of the site rules that you need to be prepared to back up your assertions. I appreciate the fact that the moderators do not want to create an environment where lazy assertions can be made, and others are expected to research them after the OP.

I could show you, but then I might get in trouble for spamming. Up for it?

[Michael Hardner]

I could show you, but then I might get in trouble for spamming. Up for it?

You could show me... what ? What are you talking about ?

I was talking with Kimmy about the OP when you came in and told me to do my own homework, so i cited the rules & guidelines.

[dre]

So, why is that? Like I said above, are the cops & courts bigots or are these ethnic groups influenced more by the negative factors in society that lead to crime? ie unemployment, lack of education, lousy parenting.

I imagine both of those factors play a part. Blacks and Hispanics generally have lower incomes and you basically get the outcome in the judicial system that you can afford to pay for... I would bet thats a factor as well. If we punished fraud, financial crimes, etc with prison time like we should you would probably see the numbers even out a little.

[dre]

You could show me... what ? What are you talking about ?

I was talking with Kimmy about the OP when you came in and told me to do my own homework, so i cited the rules & guidelines.

Seems like you spent a page or so, talking about how the thread as framed wasnt worthy of your participation.

[cybercoma]

But don’t statistics also show, both in Canada and the United States, a disproportionate percent of prison populations being made-up of “non-white” folks? Is this indicative of racism within our respective Justice Systems, or the social-economic factors that lead to crime effecting “non-whites” at a disproportionate rate?

Those factors are reciprocal. It's not one or the other, it's both, simultaneously as outcomes and predictors. One influences the other which influences the one again and so on as a downward spiral. This is why interventions are developed, despite the cries about reverse discrimination.

[Scotty]

..and this is news to whom ? They are called "thumpers" for a reason.

And you're fine with that? You presume that neither you nor anyone you care about will ever be thumped?

[Michael Hardner]

Seems like you spent a page or so, talking about how the thread as framed wasnt worthy of your participation.

That's pretty obviously false, as I have participated on the thread.

Maybe you can tell me what GH was talking about ? So far we have you commenting on my conversation with GH, commenting on my conversation with Kimmy. Anybody else care to tap in and tell me what this is all about ?

[Scotty]

Or perhaps some amongst the police would just prefer people not to be videotaping them as they are trying to do their job.

Such people are perfectly free to find another profession.

Nut getting back to the original opening post - I wonder how many people stop to think of how many police officers have been killed in the line of duty

Yes, that's the old refrain from those who reflexively support the police in their attempts to turn themselves into urban commandos. In point of fact, policing is just not that dangerous and never has been. Fishermen are in far more danger of death and injury. So are loggers and roofers, garbagemen, miners, farmers and truckers.

But people don't make TV shows about those occupations. Nobody cares about heroic garbagemen dying and leaving behind poor little orphans.

I find the outrageous reporting of this incident by so many media outlets on the internet, and the acceptance of said reporting by so many, who are actually jumping on the bandwagon, to be no better than what the police are being accused of.

A good example, IMO, is the comment in the opening post regarding the news coverage by Fox and CBS-DC - apparently Fox downplayed it, while CBS gave "the actual facts." Evidently Scotty was there, since he knows what "the actual facts" are. But having said that, one can present "actual facts" in such a way as to skew the story, such as saying "a police officer jumped on the hood of her car" without mentioning that she was attempting to drive away at the time. And of course her account, everything she claims, is "alleged," but to hear tell from people who weren't there, it's "the actual facts."

Most media outlets agree on the story, and the fact the charges were rapidly withdrawn are an indication of that story's veracity. The FOX story, which you evidently prefer, was the same as the others except that it left out details about drawn guns, cops jumping on the hood of the car, and trying to smash the car window. Apparently you think that the less information the better. Clearly you're a perfect FOX viewer! You don't want to hear anything disturbing, anything that might make you question your unwavering, blind obedience to the refrain about heroic police. You don't want to hear it.

Edited July 2, 2013 by Scotty

[bush_cheney2004]

But people don't make TV shows about those occupations. Nobody cares about heroic garbagemen dying and leaving behind poor little orphans.

They do in the U.S. > TV shows and motion pictures. Example: Discovery Channel's "Deadliest Catch" and "The Perfect Storm".

Edited July 2, 2013 by bush_cheney2004

[dre]

I appreciate the fact that the moderators do not want to create an environment where lazy assertions can be made

But your best effort to show that threat of terrorism justified huge new powers for government was "911 happened", and you seemed to find it unimportant when I explained to you what the real statistical risk was. Thats the ultimate in lazy assumptions.

Now suddenly we are back to "we first need to establish that scope of the problem or that there is one, and anecdotes are insufficient".

[Scotty]

Ok - we can probably use something more substantial to kick off the discussion then, right ?

The militarization of policing is not up for debate. It's clear and obvious. And attitude comes with that. Not sure what else you want but I doubt we'll find statistics on incidents where police pull their guns improperly on those who were really no threat, like jaywalkers and litterers. However, here's a good article on the transformation of policing over the years, especially away from the 'negotiated management' phase of the 70s. Now this deals with protests, but really, the kind of climate and culture it breeds leads to the same sort of treatment for anyone disputing police authority, or even failing to instantly comply with that authority - even when there really isn't any legal basis for it.

http://www.theatlantic.com/national/archive/2011/11/why-i-feel-bad-for-the-pepperspraying-policeman-lt-john-pike/248772/

Edited July 2, 2013 by Scotty

[Scotty]

They do in the U.S. > TV shows and motion pictures. Example: Discovery Channel's "Deadliest Catch" and "The Perfect Storm".

Sure. You tell me when they start holding big public funerals attended by thousands of garbagemen around the country who march in uniforms behind the casket...

[Michael Hardner]

The militarization of policing is not up for debate. It's clear and obvious. And attitude comes with that. Not sure what else you want but I doubt we'll find statistics on incidents where police pull their guns improperly on those who were really no threat, like jaywalkers and litterers.

What do you mean by militarization, though ? Also, as I posted above there are statistics on relevant information, studies and so on...

[dre]

WASHINGTON — Federal prosecutors are targeting a rising number of law enforcement officers for alleged brutality, Justice Department statistics show. The heightened prosecutions come as the nation's largest police union fears that agencies are dropping standards to fill thousands of vacancies and "scrimping" on training.

Cases in which police, prison guards and other law enforcement authorities have used excessive force or other tactics to violate victims' civil rights have increased 25% (281 vs. 224) from fiscal years 2001 to 2007 over the previous seven years, the department says.