Harper vs Québec

[TimG]

If anglophone Stephen Harper can't get along with francophone Quebecers, indeed if Harper's strategy is to win a federal election on sectarianism, then he will have trouble in Toronto's suburbs.

Harper tried to build in roads in Quebec but after two elections where he was given no credit for effort he made he gave up. You seem to think that Harper should have tried harder by dishing out even more goodies to Quebec nationalists which would have pissed off his base.

IOW - it takes two to tango and in this case Quebequers deserve the large share of the blame for their current lack of representation in the PC party. I don't think anyone in English Canada cares that Quebequers don't like Harper - they will vote or not vote for him based on their own assessments.

IMO the narrative that Harper seeks to divide French and English Canada is a fictional narrative created by the NDP and Liberals.

Edited May 8, 2013 by TimG

[August1991]

Harper did everything he could to win Quebecers over in his earlier years and Quebecers, for the most part, ignored him because he's not French.

No, they ignored him the same way that English-Canadians ignored Réal Caouette. Harper speaks worse French than Dion's English and while Chretien could charm the English, Harper is no Buble.

Then again, with all that said, many English Canadians now ignore Stephen Harper too.

The truly sad part, Argus, is that French Canada needs the voice (boring as it is) of someone like Stephen Harper. English Canada hears Justin Trudeau, but French Canada hears nothing from English Canada.

Like it or not, and what is remarkable, is that we are a bilingual country.

Car ce qui définit Montréal, ce n'est pas qu'elle soit multiculturelle. Pour une métropole, le fait d'être multiculturel est assez banal. La plupart des grandes villes le sont et, à ce chapitre, Montréal n'est pas particulièrement remarquable, quand on la compare à Toronto ou Vancouver.

Ce qui est absolument unique, par contre, c'est la dualité de Montréal, le fait qu'elle se soit bâtie sur deux groupes linguistiques et culturels, les francophones, maintenant largement majoritaires, et les anglophones. Montréal est l'une des très rares villes bilingues au monde, où l'on parle deux des grandes langues mondiales de communication et où l'on fonctionne dans les deux langues.

Alain Dubuc

Ce qu'on dit d'une ville, on pourrait dire de toute une société - civilisée.

Edited May 8, 2013 by August1991

[TimG]

Like it or not we are bilingual country.

In BC french is an after thought. If you want to be bilingual you learn Mandarin or Hindi.

[August1991]

In BC french is an after thought. If you want to be bilingual you learn Mandarin or Hindi.

In Montreal, like in Canada, there are unilingual anglophones and francophones for many generations, for centuries. We live together, speak in our own language at home, and rely on others for precise translation - we've done this for centuries.

TimG, how many people will speak fluent Mandarin/Hindi in Vancouver in 200 years? What language do 3rd generation Chinese speak?

----

All things considered, I prefer the multilingual, multicultural States of Europe - before WWI. I prefer cities like Lemberg. Such a city was truly civilized.

Let me risk this comparison:

Do I prefer a field of wildflowers (and weeds) to a cultivated garden of tulips? No, but nor do I like a French garden.

The civilized State is a work in progress.

Edited May 8, 2013 by August1991

[hitops]

I think Quebec is losing importance overall. The population grows mostly by new immigrants and by the children of immigrants (because they have more of them). New immigrants largely favor conservative policies, because they are not as culturally adapted to validaiton of the victim mentality. This is a good thing for Canada, as these folks are usually some of the most productive.

I cannot wait until there are enough immigrants in Canada that we can tell Quebec they are free to run their own affairs, but we will no longer be paying for it. They can then discover the actual costs of the way they operate.

[Claudius]

I'm sorry but many in Quebec will be the first to inturrupt you and point out that Quebec isn't Canada.

[August1991]

I think Quebec is losing importance overall. The population grows mostly by new immigrants and by the children of immigrants (because they have more of them). New immigrants largely favor conservative policies, because they are not as culturally adapted to validaiton of the victim mentality. This is a good thing for Canada, as these folks are usually some of the most productive.

I cannot wait until there are enough immigrants in Canada that we can tell Quebec they are free to run their own affairs, but we will no longer be paying for it. They can then discover the actual costs of the way they operate.

My argument, hitops, was that many immigrants - particularly in the 905 region - judge Stephen Harper (a WASP, member of the "majority") through the lens of how he treats Canada's minority community - French Canada.

When those same immigrants see someone from the minority community (Justin Trudeau) who is not an obvious Quisling but accepted in the majority community, then their instinct is to vote Liberal.

-----

As I have argued elsewhere, Harper has two fears:

1. Collapse of the NDP vote

2. Loss of the Ontario suburban vote

Edited May 10, 2013 by August1991

[TimG]

My argument, hitops, was that many immigrants - particularly in the 905 region - judge Stephen Harper (a WASP, member of the "majority") through the lens of how he treats Canada's minority community - French Canada.

I think you are completely delusional. The suburban immigrant vote does not give a damn about Quebec (if anything they are as appalled as long time residents by the language obsessions of Quebequers).

[Fletch 27]

Your forgetting one key element.... Many immigrants have gone through many hardships and trials through racism.... When Justin Favors QC over the rest of the country... Its resounding...

Justin is pandering to QC (Its very well advertised in the dreaded attack ads).. With Justin pitting QC against Canada, Its like the Croats Vs the Serbs. He is very divisive in his comments and that will be his downfall. Harper understands growth and prosperity and IMO its resounding with Nationals as well as recent immigrants. They fled their homeland for LESS of what JT is offering

My argument, hitops, was that many immigrants - particularly in the 905 region - judge Stephen Harper (a WASP, member of the "majority") through the lens of how he treats Canada's minority community - French Canada.

When those same immigrants see someone from the minority community (Justin Trudeau) who is not an obvious Quisling but accepted in the majority community, then their instinct is to vote Liberal.

-----

As I have argued elsewhere, Harper has two fears:

1. Collapse of the NDP vote

2. Loss of the Ontario suburban vote

[August1991]

Your forgetting one key element.... Many immigrants have gone through many hardships and trials through racism....

Precisely. Many immigrants understand communal relations, and how some politicians get/maintain power by setting one group against another.

In my OP, I merely said that Harper is playing with fire if he thinks that he can build a West/Ontario coalition - by excluding Quebec.

Edited May 10, 2013 by August1991

[Fletch 27]

He has however... Only the 416 DT Toronto have the liberals... Or the NDP... Harper has it right,,, Its now a struggle between the "Haves" and "Have Nots":.... QC will always go for the free ride... but "Canada" is done with the free-loading.. The past 3 elections have had him growing and growing... And I thing the position of Horwath and the current provincial leader will only solidify the movement... He doesn't need to build anything... He need the liberals and NDP to keep on doin what they are doing...

Both parties are running on divisive platforms... Mulcair and separation (50+1) and JT's comments on "the rest of Canada". Canadians and immigrants cringe at such talk... But I understand that they are playing to the base (Fighting over it now)...and fighting to keep their roles...

Again, Talk to any immigrant who was been through either land battles or religious .... The talk Mulcair and JY fling is rather offensive,,

Precisely. Many immigrants understand communal relations, and how some politicians get/maintain power by setting one group against another.

In my OP, I merely said that Harper is playing with fire if he thinks that he can build a West/Ontario coalition - by excluding Quebec.

[Argus]

Well then, let Harper (a WASP) try to use that same argument to get people in the 905 to vote Conservative against a minority francophone federalist.

Harper won't use it but I'm sure conservative campaigners will use it against both Trudeau and Mulcair.

"Trudeau only thinks about Quebecers; but I think about you."

And screw those swarthy immigrants too.

Given you're posting from a province which won't allow swarthy immigrants to set foot there that's kind of 'galling'.

If anglophone Stephen Harper can't get along with francophone Quebecers, indeed if Harper's strategy is to win a federal election on sectarianism, then he will have trouble in Toronto's suburbs.

I think you have an elevated belief in how much anyone cares about Quebec's hurt feelings.

Edited May 10, 2013 by Argus

[Argus]

Fine, let Harper run on this point. (The fact that it's questionable is not an issue apparently... )

Everything politicians say about each other is questionable to some extent. This is less questionable than most.

If Harper wants to win a federal election by dividing French and English Canada, dividing Quebec from the rest of Canada, then let's see where this strategy leads.

Harper has no intention of dividing French and English Canada. His intention is to win elections by focusing on people he has a chance to gain support from. Given the notorious bigotry and impossible-to-satisfy sense of entitlement of Quebec, he has little chance of gaining any seats there, so he's largely ignoring them. That's only good strategy.

I frankly think that if Harper runs on this strategy (whatever the justification), his children will not have breakfast in 24 Sussex in 2016, and they may suffer worse when they go to university in 2017.

Why, will nasty Frenchmen attack them in university?

[Argus]

Global News

Harper is encouraging the divide between English and French Canada. I think that this is a grievous, strategical mistake.

The interpretation in Quebec and English Canada is that Harper is "fed up" of Quebec.

Utter drivel. All he's saying is that this ludicrous conspiracy theory about the supreme court consulting with Trudeau the elder during Constitutional talks is not something he has much interest in further exploring. Your sense of arrogance is showing once again. If Harper doesn't pay close and rapt attention to your people's obsessive stupidity regarding historical revisionism that just makes him sane, not 'encouraging the divide between English and French Canada".

[August1991]

Harper won't use it but I'm sure conservative campaigners will use it against both Trudeau and Mulcair.

I have been thinking about negative ads and the usual pattern is to get someone else, arm's length, to do the dirty work.

I would expect some group to start advertising that Trudeau/Mulcair are both from Montreal, where political corruption is rampant, and so it is impossible "they didn't know".

I think you have an elevated belief in how much anyone cares about Quebec's hurt feelings.

Voters in the 905 don't care about Quebec but they look carefully at how the minority feels about a WASP leader, and how he seeks votes. If Harper says that he doesn't need Quebec because he has (WASP) Alberta and rural Ontario, then he will lose this immigrant vote. (Yes, I know that Alberta is not WASP.)

Harper has no intention of dividing French and English Canada. His intention is to win elections by focusing on people he has a chance to gain support from.

I tend to agree - and Harper critically knows that if the vote split is right - he doesn't need more than 40% overall support.

But for Harper, Quebec is sadly irrelevant now. If it exists on his agenda, it is because he insists that a staffer bring it to his attention.

------

The remarkable thing in all this is that I am convinced that the Charbonneau Commission (it amounts to a youtube video, secretly recorded, of the overweight Quebec Inc in a tanning salon) is due to Stephen Harper.

Harper was the first federal PM to use the federal tax authorities to expose practices that have been, obviously, long standing in Montreal. (Chretien, Trudeau, Mulroney, Martin - all federalists from Quebec knew what was going on but feared investigating the obvious.)

Harper was different. Because of Harper's internal investigations at the CRA, Radio-Canada's Enquête then had leads to follow. This eventually lead to Charest (of all people) creating this commission.

Harper in fact is not "anti-Quebec" but you will meet few Quebecers who believe that. The irony of politics is that a péquiste may hate Harper but benefit inadvertently from Harper's actions.

Edited May 11, 2013 by August1991

[Argus]

I have been thinking about negative ads and the usual pattern is to get someone else, arm's length, to do the dirty work.

I would expect someone to start noting that Trudeau/Mulcair are both from Montreal, where political corruption is so rampant that it is impossible "they didn't know".

Quebec's political culture is a culture of corruption and nepotism. But aside from that Trudeau has made it clear he is a QUEBECER, and only then, at a distance, a canadian. And Mulcair has been sucking up to separatists and doing everything he can to cater to Quebec, even at the expense of every other province. I don't know you think it should be considered unfair to point these things out.

Voters in the 905 don't care about Quebec but they look carefully at how the minority feels about a WASP leader,

Voters in the 905 don't consider Frenchmen to be a minority, any more than they consider Germans or Ukrainians or Scotsmen to be minorities.

and how he seeks votes. If Harper says that he doesn't need Quebec because he has Alberta and rural Ontario, then he will lose this immigrant vote.

To immigrants, French are just white Canadians like every other group, except a lot more whiny.

But for Harper, Quebec is sadly irrelevant now.

Yes, in that Quebecers have no intention of voting for him no matter what he says or does. Oh if he gave Quebec another twenty or thirty billion a year in transfer fees he might pick up an extra seat, but that's about it. Quebecers, given a choice of voting for a French Quebecer, will do so no matter who the Anglo is, and no matter who the Francophone is.

French Quebecers are the most bigoted people in Canada by a very wide margin. Calgary elected a Muslim mayor. That is inconceivable for a Francophone Quebec city.

Edited May 11, 2013 by Argus

[August1991]

French Quebecers are the most bigoted people in Canada by a very wide margin. Calgary elected a Muslim mayor. That is inconceivable for a Francophone Quebec city.

Montreal currently has a Jewish anglophone mayor. Admittedly, he was only elected in council. Edited May 11, 2013 by August1991

[Argus]

Montreal currently has a Jewish anglophone mayor. Admittedly, he was only elected in council.

Yes, because everyone else in council who had ambitions knew a Jewish anglo would not pose any threat should they decide to run for office.

[August1991]

Yes, because everyone else in council who had ambitions knew a Jewish anglo would not pose any threat should they decide to run for office.

That's not the reason Michael Applebaum is currently mayor of Montreal.

-----

Argus, the fact remains that Montreal has a Jewish Mayor, and Calgary has a Muslim mayor. Toronto has a very fat mayor, and Laval has a mayor facing criminal charges.

Compared to other societies in this world, there is something remarkable in this.

Edited May 14, 2013 by August1991

[Vineon]

. Quebecers, given a choice of voting for a French Quebecer, will do so no matter who the Anglo is, and no matter who the Francophone is.

French Quebecers are the most bigoted people in Canada by a very wide margin. Calgary elected a Muslim mayor. That is inconceivable for a Francophone Quebec city.

Yeah.

Our last elections were a perfect example of this. Remember how francophone Jack Layton ousted anglo Gilles Duceppe out of parliament.

[Moonbox]

August I just read your opening post today, and all I have to say to you is "Boo-hoo."

Quebec marginalized itself. It wasn't Harper or the Conservatives that did it. A long legacy of combative anti-western leaders and rhetoric, along with a pauvre-nous attitude has finally caught up with Quebec. It's not about language, it's not about religion and it's not about nationality. It's about an anglo-Canada that's become tired with the culture of perpetual outrage and crying that's existed as long as I've been alive and which shows no signs of abating.

La Belle Province des Pleurnichards

Edited May 24, 2013 by Moonbox

[August1991]

August I just read your opening post today, and all I have to say to you is "Boo-hoo."

Quebec marginalized itself. It wasn't Harper or the Conservatives that did it. A long legacy of combative anti-western leaders and rhetoric, along with a pauvre-nous attitude has finally caught up with Quebec. It's not about language, it's not about religion and it's not about nationality. It's about an anglo-Canada that's become tired with the culture of perpetual outrage and crying that's existed as long as I've been alive and which shows no signs of abating.

La Belle Province des Pleurnichards

Is English Canada really any better? What excuses will English Canadians now offer for its various politicians? Jack Layton was no saint - he enjoyed public-housing and massage parlours, and neither was Dalton McGuinty.

Or how about Stephen Harper? Rob Ford? If some English-Canadians dislike these two because they are "right wing", are these Canadians being "pleurnichards"? Heck, is Lucien Bouchard "right wing"?

-----

In a civilized society, individuals have to get along. In a place such as Canada, northern North America, we individuals have managed to get along across borders of language and region, religion, for several centuries - largely in peace. Remarkable.

Edited May 24, 2013 by August1991

[Moonbox]

The politicians aren't the point. The prevailing attitude of Quebec towards the rest of Canada is. This is one of those instances where you might need to take a step back and think, perhaps, that everybody else might not be the problem.

There's a reason Quebec is the poorest out of the major provinces and perpetually requires equalization payments There's a reason that the Conservatives hold a majority, and needed zero support from Quebec. There's a reason that the Americans and the rest of Canada make fun of Quebec. It's not because they're French. It's not because they're Catholic.

It's because of things like the language police and the tedious outrage the province exhibits over basically anything and everything. 20 years of useless protest votes for the Bloc (which didn't even run federal candidates) has given the rest of Canada a good taste of how what to expect from your province.

You're right that Canadian politics have become regional. Most of the blame for that, however, can be laid at Pierre Trudeau's feet, along with the Bloc and the blatant conflicts that they instigated. The Reform Party and the Harper Conservatives were the natural and inevitable push-back to that. For all the hatred Quebecquers have for Harper, can you name anything that he's done that comes even close to the NEP? Not a chance. Did the Reform party only run candidates in the West? The Bloc Quebecquois was a slap in the face to the rest of the country. Instead of being part of the debate and trying to affect change from within, Quebec voters insisted on closing themselves out and building veritable walls out of outrage and indignation. After 20 years of crying, fussing and protesting anything that didn't put Quebec first, is it any surprise that the rest of the country voted overwhelmingly to shut Quebec out in the last election? Not at all.

[August1991]

It's because of things like the language police and the tedious outrage the province exhibits over basically anything and everything. 20 years of useless protest votes for the Bloc (which didn't even run federal candidates) has given the rest of Canada a good taste of how what to expect from your province.

Language police?

English Canada (Toronto) has its own methods of protection. Can foreign (American) banks, cellphone companies or airlines operate freely in Canada?

Why not?

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Moonbox, IMHO, Canada is a civilized society, But it is more complicated than you imagine.

Edited May 24, 2013 by August1991

[Bryan]

English Canada (Toronto) has its own methods of protection. Can foreign (American) banks, cellphone companies or airlines operate freely in Canada?

Define freely. I fly United Airlines out of Canada regularly. I use a foreign bank and a foreign financial services company that operate in Canada. At least one of our "Canadian" cell phone companies is foreign owned.