My Calgary Home?

[M.Dancer]

Not counting the Canadian illegals or snowbirds, it is easy to demonstrate that far more Canadians leave for the evil USA and seek permanent residency.

http://www.dhs.gov/xlibrary/assets/statist...06/table11d.xls

The "brain drain" gap has narrowed, but it's still a net loss for Canada:

http://www.cbc.ca/canada/story/2007/07/30/...us.html?ref=rss

There are reasons why the USA has a population of 300,000,000 and Canada doesn't...just ask some ex-Canadians.

I know more leave than arrive...it was your 4 to 1 I was questiong. I belieive the correct ratio is 2 to 1 and falling.

[AngusThermopyle]

I know you don't live in a country where the only reason for being out of work is not wanting to work; which has nothing to do with geographic diversity (you think the States doesn't have geographic diversity??) and beauty (the States are beautiful too, but that's not getting people jobs).

Actually I live in a province where they are crying out for workers. So much so that they now plan to fast track immigrant workers. Here in Alberta we have buisnesses closing because they cant find workers to staff them. Since Christmas I've had four job offers, offers meaning that I did not seek these jobs, people came to me and offered me the job. We've been turning down jobs because we don't have the man power to full fill them. One of our priorities is trying to find new employees we can use. I live in a small town, yet I could still find a job here within an hour maximum. But I guess you're right, no work around here for anyone, it must all be one big fat lie. You know, the whole shortage of workers thing.

As for the whole U.S. has geographic diversity thing. When did I ever say Canada has more than the states? What I said was easychair would be moving to an area that is geographically beautifull and that Calgary is a city with lots of wide open green areas. Perhaps in future before responding so vigorously you should read a little more carefully.

As for the homeless issue. I know the PC line is that they don't want to be there. I think however if you look at it a little more closely you'll find many of them are where they are because of personal choices they made. I'm sure some of them are in that situation because of circumstances beyond their control, but that is far from being all of them. Many are where they are because they choose to use debilitating drugs, because they don't like rules, they don't like having to be somewhere and perform assigned duties when required.

[Drea]

You actually believe that??

It's true.Labour Force Survey

In BC and Alberta if one is unemployed, one does not want to work.

There are homeless of course. Manyy are druggies or simply want to be there.

In BC we also have a problem with the mentally handicapped being on the streets. Our premier a-hole thought it a good idea to close down institutions housing them so they are on the streets too.

But mostly those you see are there because they don't want to work (don't want to bend to society's rules) or they are druggies.

Our employment rate (Canada as a whole) is at it's lowest since 1974.

And who was it that mentioned "illegals" coming from Canada... I laughed! Canadians are not Mexicans. We are not crossing your border in the middle of the night. We don't need to. We have it good here. Why would anyone in their right mind leave a place where basically every need is taken care of to a life of illegal uncertainty in the US? Doesn't make sense.

Got a link proving that Canadians are crossing the border illegally?

[Guest American Woman]

You actually believe that??

It's true.Labour Force Survey

In BC and Alberta if one is unemployed, one does not want to work.

There are homeless of course. Manyy are druggies or simply want to be there.

In BC we also have a problem with the mentally handicapped being on the streets. Our premier a-hole thought it a good idea to close down institutions housing them so they are on the streets too.

But mostly those you see are there because they don't want to work (don't want to bend to society's rules) or they are druggies.

Our employment rate (Canada as a whole) is at it's lowest since 1974.

And who was it that mentioned "illegals" coming from Canada... I laughed! Canadians are not Mexicans. We are not crossing your border in the middle of the night. We don't need to. We have it good here. Why would anyone in their right mind leave a place where basically every need is taken care of to a life of illegal uncertainty in the US? Doesn't make sense.

Got a link proving that Canadians are crossing the border illegally?

First of all, no. I don't have a link proving that Canadians are crossing the border illegally because I didn't say they were, nor do I know who said it. So I'm questioning why you're including that comment in a post directed to me, with a quote by me. If you want to address that comment, perhaps you should find the quote yourself and address whoever said it instead of making it sound as if I were the one who said it, or at the very least could have been the one.

But speaking of links, perhaps you could provide one that proves only people who don't want to work are unemployed in Calgary and BC. They may be unemployed because they have a skill and they don't want to work at Burger King, but that's not quite the same as being unemployed because they don't want to work.

What it boils down to is this: it's your opinion that people who are unemployed don't want to work. Same as the homelessness situation. You may choose to believe that the druggies wanted to be druggies, that they chose to be druggies, but that's nothing more than an uneducated opinion. I say uneducated because unless you are actually out on the streets talking to people about their choices, you don't have a clue as to why they ended up on the streets. Unless you can provide a link proving/backing up what you are saying with facts, not just more opinions.

But here's the thing: the original response about being unemployed only if one doesn't want to work was in response to a post about CANADA, not Calgary (or BC), so as such, I assumed the response was in reference to CANADA.

[Guest American Woman]

Actually I live in a province where they are crying out for workers. So much so that they now plan to fast track immigrant workers. Here in Alberta we have buisnesses closing because they cant find workers to staff them. Since Christmas I've had four job offers, offers meaning that I did not seek these jobs, people came to me and offered me the job. We've been turning down jobs because we don't have the man power to full fill them. One of our priorities is trying to find new employees we can use. I live in a small town, yet I could still find a job here within an hour maximum. But I guess you're right, no work around here for anyone, it must all be one big fat lie. You know, the whole shortage of workers thing.

As for the whole U.S. has geographic diversity thing. When did I ever say Canada has more than the states? What I said was easychair would be moving to an area that is geographically beautifull and that Calgary is a city with lots of wide open green areas. Perhaps in future before responding so vigorously you should read a little more carefully.

As for the homeless issue. I know the PC line is that they don't want to be there. I think however if you look at it a little more closely you'll find many of them are where they are because of personal choices they made. I'm sure some of them are in that situation because of circumstances beyond their control, but that is far from being all of them. Many are where they are because they choose to use debilitating drugs, because they don't like rules, they don't like having to be somewhere and perform assigned duties when required.

Your post was in response to this comment:

"There are reasons why the USA has a population of 300,000,000 and Canada doesn't...just ask some ex-Canadians"

so I naturally assumed your response was about CANADA. Since it was apparently only about your city/province, it's really irrelevant in regards to the original comment-- which was about Canada.

So I questioned the comment about anyone who is unemployed doesn't want to work. That's the ONLY thing I questioned. In response you asked me if it's so difficult for me to believe that you live in a beautiful place yadda yadda and added that you are sorry if I don't. So YOU brought up the beauty in regards to my questioning unemployment and I went with it from there. So perhaps you should be more aware of your responses before telling me to read a little more carefully.

Edited to add:

In regards to this comment: "Actually I live in a province where they are crying out for workers:" if you cannot get enough people to live there, makes one wonder why. If it's so beautiful and wonderful there with tons of employment opportunity, why are people moving away from Canada instead of going to Calgary/Alberta?

Edited August 11, 2007 by American Woman

[AngusThermopyle]

I honestly can't answer your question as regards people moving, I would never presume to know their motivation. As for population density I merely commented that I don't think a greater population has much to do with overall quality of life.

Since the topic deals with easychair's impending move to Calgary, which is in Alberta I don't think your ramblings about employment in the rest of Canada are very relevant at all. Have you been to Alberta? If not then it's a little presumptuous of you to imply that there is a lack of natural beauty in this province. Don't you think?

Of course there is beauty across the entire North American Continent. Only a fool would attempt to deny that. I simply cant understand your desire to take a simple factual statement and turn it into a pissing match akin to that heard in a schoolyard. I wont argue the point with you however. I'll agree instead. You're right, there is no work in Canada, everyone is homeless and as for beauty, you're right again, this place is a real shit hole.

Happy now?

[Guest American Woman]

I honestly can't answer your question as regards people moving, I would never presume to know their motivation. As for population density I merely commented that I don't think a greater population has much to do with overall quality of life.

Since the topic deals with easychair's impending move to Calgary, which is in Alberta I don't think your ramblings about employment in the rest of Canada are very relevant at all. Have you been to Alberta? If not then it's a little presumptuous of you to imply that there is a lack of natural beauty in this province. Don't you think?

Of course there is beauty across the entire North American Continent. Only a fool would attempt to deny that. I simply cant understand your desire to take a simple factual statement and turn it into a pissing match akin to that heard in a schoolyard. I wont argue the point with you however. I'll agree instead. You're right, there is no work in Canada, everyone is homeless and as for beauty, you're right again, this place is a real shit hole.

Happy now?

Nowhere did I so much as HINT that there is a lack of natural beauty in Alberta. I think parts of Alberta are breathtaking and as such have always wanted to go to Banff. I don't understand why YOU keep bringing up "beauty" when the issue has been unemployment and the original comment about how more people are moving to the United States than Canada. YOU are the one who brought up beauty, saying you're sorry if I don't live in such a place. But when you bring it up, don't accuse ME of wanting to "get into a pissing match" for responding to what YOU have brought up.

Everything I've brought up has been legitimate. If you can't take someone questioning what you say and have a decent discussion regarding the comments your comments draw without making wild accusations about pissing matches, then maybe, just maybe, you can't take the heat. Talk about a defensive, juvenile response.

In the meantime, I'll ask my question of someone else who may be able to provide an answer:

Since there is so much beauty and job opportunity right in Canada, why would Canadians leave to come to the United States to seek employment? That is a legitimate question. Because that is what the original comment was in regards to; and why we have a population of 300 million (according to the comments in this thread). And it was in regards to CANADA, not Calgary/Alberta.

Edited August 11, 2007 by American Woman

[bush_cheney2004]

I know more leave than arrive...it was your 4 to 1 I was questiong. I belieive the correct ratio is 2 to 1 and falling.

And I believe the undocumented / illegal traffic pushes it much higher to 4 to 1. We can agree only that the ratio is falling.

[jdobbin]

And I believe the undocumented / illegal traffic pushes it much higher to 4 to 1. We can agree only that the ratio is falling.

I find that assertion doubtful. I challenge you to find any citation, anything at all to back up that claim.

[margrace]

Nowhere did I so much as HINT that there is a lack of natural beauty in Alberta. I think parts of Alberta are breathtaking and as such have always wanted to go to Banff. I don't understand why YOU keep bringing up "beauty" when the issue has been unemployment and the original comment about how more people are moving to the United States than Canada. YOU are the one who brought up beauty, saying you're sorry if I don't live in such a place. But when you bring it up, don't accuse ME of wanting to "get into a pissing match" for responding to what YOU have brought up.

Everything I've brought up has been legitimate. If you can't take someone questioning what you say and have a decent discussion regarding the comments your comments draw without making wild accusations about pissing matches, then maybe, just maybe, you can't take the heat. Talk about a defensive, juvenile response.

In the meantime, I'll ask my question of someone else who may be able to provide an answer:

Since there is so much beauty and job opportunity right in Canada, why would Canadians leave to come to the United States to seek employment? That is a legitimate question. Because that is what the original comment was in regards to; and why we have a population of 300 million (according to the comments in this thread). And it was in regards to CANADA, not Calgary/Alberta.

Nurses go to the US, or have gone because of, for instance Mr. Harris's comments in Ontario of getting rid of 20% of the Bimbos. This has forced some to go for employment elsewhere especially young people.

It is young people who go south, they have always enjoyed the benefits of our social programs but now want to keep all their income for themselves. When they get into a very costly sickness or health need they certainly return to Canada because they find they cannot afford the treatment in the US.

I also think that although there was a certain amount of this southwards travel, it has slowed down quite a bit. Also I have found that older people cannot get green cards for work in the US.

OLder people migrate that way but only those who can afford to do so. A lot of our older citizens do not go south because of the cost and because they prefer the Canadian climate.

I have only been across the border 3 times in my 72 years and there are a lot like me. My trips were only short, two being day trips and one for 4 days. So my knowledge of the US is very limited.

I cannot function in heat so would never have any desire to go to the south for the winter as some do. I can only speak for myself and those I know.

[scribblet]

Nurses go to the US, or have gone because of, for instance Mr. Harris's comments in Ontario of getting rid of 20% of the Bimbos. This has forced some to go for employment elsewhere especially young people.

It is young people who go south, they have always enjoyed the benefits of our social programs but now want to keep all their income for themselves. When they get into a very costly sickness or health need they certainly return to Canada because they find they cannot afford the treatment in the US.

I'm shocked I say I'm shocked that some people actually want to keep their income to themselves - what next - they'll want to spend it how they see fit too well, I never

Don't forget Mr. Rae started it, lots forget that (and BTW, he's partly responsible for the homeless situation another topic)

[bush_cheney2004]

And who was it that mentioned "illegals" coming from Canada... I laughed! Canadians are not Mexicans. We are not crossing your border in the middle of the night. We don't need to. We have it good here. Why would anyone in their right mind leave a place where basically every need is taken care of to a life of illegal uncertainty in the US? Doesn't make sense.

Got a link proving that Canadians are crossing the border illegally?

Yes, I know that Canadians are not Mexicans, but they still try to crash US borders illegally. I think it's funny when Canadians think they are better than "Mexicans" when it comes to being busted for illegal immigration, but for some reason many Canadians think they deserve different treatment. It probably starts with overstaying a 6 month visa, rationalizations because of family in the US, yada, yada, yada (Mexicans have family in the States too). But it's true.....there are Canadian illegals in America....many thousands of 'em. (And there were/are American illegals in Canada.)

Some Canadians find it incomprehensible that their countrymen/women would leave for the US illegally. It challenges their basic belief systems about all that is good in Canada and all that is bad in the USA. One can only laugh at their puzzled looks when it happens.

Canada has long been the quiet storm for illegal immigration from both Canadian nationals and landed immigrants who use Canada as a stepping stone to the promised land (USA). I personally know of a Guyanan/Canadian and his entire family who did just this. MacLean's had a nice summary way back in 2000:

http://thecanadianencyclopedia.com/index.c...s=M1ARTM0012213

[bush_cheney2004]

I find that assertion doubtful. I challenge you to find any citation, anything at all to back up that claim.

I found the "citations" that easily back up a claim of 2 to 1, but now you want to bicker without providing any citations at all? It is not a giant leap of faith to appreciate that the illegal Canadian traffic pushes those numbers higher.

Is there more honor in beating the "ratio" down as low as possible, despite the obvious underlying point that more Canadians are going the other way to the USA?

In my office we watch the "green card" shuffle all the time. Glorious is the day when achieving permanent residency status and one step closer to US citizenship. Many of these people began the journey somewhere else, but the road came through Canada.

[bush_cheney2004]

...It is young people who go south, they have always enjoyed the benefits of our social programs but now want to keep all their income for themselves. When they get into a very costly sickness or health need they certainly return to Canada because they find they cannot afford the treatment in the US.

I think this is the key....there is every advantage in doing so with no downside as long as residency rules can be maintained for Canada (180 days). Canadians have a gift circumstance that Americans cannot enjoy. Other immigrants must make more of a commitment and travel farther....darting back over the border with ease is not so easy an option save for Mexico.

[jdobbin]

I found the "citations" that easily back up a claim of 2 to 1, but now you want to bicker without providing any citations at all? It is not a giant leap of faith to appreciate that the illegal Canadian traffic pushes those numbers higher.

Is there more honor in beating the "ratio" down as low as possible, despite the obvious underlying point that more Canadians are going the other way to the USA?

In my office we watch the "green card" shuffle all the time. Glorious is the day when achieving permanent residency status and one step closer to US citizenship. Many of these people began the journey somewhere else, but the road came through Canada.

You said 4 to 1. You are the one bickering. I asked for your citation on that number and you give anecdotal evidence and a link from 2000 that mostly talks about how the the U.S. is responsible for many illegal immigrants coming into Canada. It doesn't mention anything about Canadian citizens heading down there. It doesn't mention any 4 to 1 figure which you pulled out of the air. You obviously had a leap of faith to post that number and now you call it bickering.

Edited August 11, 2007 by jdobbin

[bush_cheney2004]

You said 4 to 1. You are the one bickering. I asked for you a citation on that number and you give anecdotal evidence and a link from 2000 that mostly talks about how the the U.S. is responsible for a many illegal immigrants coming into Canada. It doesn't mention anything about Canadian citizens heading down there. It doesn't mention any 4 to 1 figure which you pulled out of the air. You obviously had a leap of faith to post that number and now you call it bickering.

Nonsense...you are confused. My earlier post demonstrated US government numbers for permenant US residency in 2006 from all nations plus the CBC story demonstrating at least 2 to 1 for the "brain drain". Going back to the 1990's we see anecdotal evidence that American traffic to Canada was about 5,000 per year while Canada's spiked. So yes, I maintain that the real ratio is closer to 4 to 1 for all traffic, legal and illegal.

In the mean time, you have offered little more than objections and "climate" as to the reason why Canadians leave for the USA. Bottom line: Far more Canadians, with a population about 11% that of the US, pick up and leave for America than Yanks going in the opposite direction from a nation of 300,000,000. But dont' feel bad, China has a population exceeding 1,000,000,000 and it's the same story.

Edited August 11, 2007 by bush_cheney2004

[Guest American Woman]

Nonsense...you are confused. My earlier post demonstrated US government numbers for permenant US residency in 2006 from all nations plus the CBC story demonstrating at least 2 to 1 for the "brain drain". Going back to the 1990's we see anecdotal evidence that American traffic to Canada was about 5,000 per year while Canada's spiked. So yes, I maintain that the real ration is closer to 4 to 1 for all traffic, legal and illegal.

In the mean time, you have offered nothing.

The current ratio of Canadians moving to Canada vs. Americans moving to Canada is 2:1. You can't figure in 'illegal Canadians' without figuring in 'illegal Americans' in Canada. I'm guessing the ratio of illegals wouldn't be any higher than the ratio of legals, since there is nothing to indicate otherwise, so that would still leave the ratio at 2:1.

Edited August 11, 2007 by American Woman

[bush_cheney2004]

The current ratio of Canadians moving to Canada vs. Americans moving to Canada is 2:1. You can't figure in 'illegal Canadians' without figuring in 'illegal Americans' in Canada. I'm guessing the ratio of illegals wouldn't be any higher than the ratio of legals, since there is nothing to indicate otherwise, so that would still leave the ratio at 2:1.

Of course I can include illegals, because that ratio is even higher and is what skews the numbers so badly. Canada presents this veneer of welcoming multiculturalism, so it damn well can take credit for them beating feet across the border to America.

But I will play along....please demonstrate that the ratio is only 2 to 1 and never higher.

I'm still waiting for the answer to your valid question about Canadians leaving and employment.

Edited August 11, 2007 by bush_cheney2004

[Guest American Woman]

Of course I can include illegals, because that ratio is even higher and is what skews the numbers so badly. Canada presents this veneer of welcoming multiculturalism, so it damn well can take credit for them beating feet across the border to America.

But I will play along....please demonstrate that the ratio is only 2 to 1 and never higher.

As I said, if you are going to include any Canadians who are here illegally, you have to include Americans who are in Canada illegally. You can't just use the 'illegal factor' on one side of the equation.

Furthermore, I said "currently" the ratio is 2:1. We're living in the present, so that would be the relevant ratio. This is what you said:

....for every one of you, there are four others going the opposite way to the USA.

You said "there are" indicating the present. You didn't say have been in the past at some time, you said "are." At least that's how I took it, but you could be right. Over time there could have been 4:1 since the 2:1 current ratio shows an increase of Americans going to Canada and a decrease of Canadians coming here-- which might reverse itself again once the Bush adminstration is gone.

Here's an article with figures that back up what I've said.

[bush_cheney2004]

As I said, if you are going to include any Canadians who are here illegally, you have to include Americans who are in Canada illegally. You can't just use the 'illegal factor' on one side of the equation.

This distinction was never in doubt....I included American traffic (legal and illegal), citing references for both. Far more illegal immigrants come from Canada than go to Canada from the USA.

Your citation seems to be identical to the CBC story I referenced yesterday...where are the "illegals":

http://www.cbc.ca/canada/story/2007/07/30/...us.html?ref=rss

Edited August 11, 2007 by bush_cheney2004

[jdobbin]

Nonsense...you are confused. My earlier post demonstrated US government numbers for permenant US residency in 2006 from all nations plus the CBC story demonstrating at least 2 to 1 for the "brain drain". Going back to the 1990's we see anecdotal evidence that American traffic to Canada was about 5,000 per year while Canada's spiked. So yes, I maintain that the real ratio is closer to 4 to 1 for all traffic, legal and illegal.

And I called your 4 to 1 numbers a figure you made out of your imagination. You have nothing to back up that number. Why do you keep asserting it is anything but a lie that you made up to exaggerate a point?

[jdobbin]

This distinction was never in doubt....I included American traffic (legal and illegal), citing references for both. Far more illegal immigrants come from Canada than go to Canada from the USA.

Your citation seems to be identical to the CBC story I referenced yesterday...where are the "illegals":

I haven't seen any figures from you that more illegal immigrants come from Canada than vice versa. The link you showed said the conservative estimate is 3000 to 5000 total from Canada in 2000 while illegal immigration from America to Canada was 5000 at one border crossing. So if you have more recent figures produce them but stop with the lies.

Edited August 11, 2007 by jdobbin

[bush_cheney2004]

And I called your 4 to 1 numbers a figure you made out of your imagination. You have nothing to back up that number. Why do you keep asserting it is anything but a lie that you made up to exaggerate a point?

It's only a lie if you can prove me wrong, but obviously you are too lazy to do so. Go catch your own fish.

Canadian legal and illegal immigration is at least four times Americans going in the opposite direction. That's my story and I'm sticking to it, mostly because it interests you so much. Ooops...there goes another one heading south....300,000,002.

[jdobbin]

It's only a lie if you can prove me wrong, but obviously you are too lazy to do so. Go catch your own fish.

Canadian legal and illegal immigration is at least four times Americans going in the opposite direction. That's my story and I'm sticking to it, mostly because it interests you so much. Ooops...there goes another one heading south....300,000,002.

I just think you are a liar and have nothing to back it up. You're the one that asserted 4 to 1 and every link here indicates you're making it up.

Edited August 11, 2007 by jdobbin

[bush_cheney2004]

I haven't seen any figures from you that more illegal immigrants come from Canada than vice versa. The link you showed said the conservative estimate is 3000 to 5000 total from Canada in 2000 while illegal immigration from America to Canada was 5000 at one border crossing. So if you have more recent figures produce them but stop with the lies.

No. Maybe it is 8 to 1..or 10 to 1...who knows? It's a hard thing to pin down...but still, why oh why do so many more leave for America? We know that America is hell on earth, so why would people leave Klondike Paradise, or the Peace River Valley, or the GTA, or St. John's??

I think I will ask my Canadian colleagues on Monday...straight up.