First nations patiences waning

[Accountability Now]

Don't make the mistake of presuming that everyone who speaks about INM, speaks on behalf of INM.

I had seen this web page but only because I searched for it. In my opinion, they should have been much more vocal about it. Maybe to the point of calling them out in the media. Most people in Canada aren't checking the INN website for this. Most are watching the news and coming to their own conclusions which are not positive.

But let's not kid ourselves....to what point did they actually get scolded? Just yesterday Theresa Spence was leading an INM teach in in Edmonton. They have used and continue to use whatever media attention (good or bad) they can get. To be fair....most of Canada hadn't heard about INN until Spence and the leaders did what they did. Too bad it was a double edge sword.

[jacee]

I had seen this web page but only because I searched for it. In my opinion, they should have been much more vocal about it. Maybe to the point of calling them out in the media. Most people in Canada aren't checking the INN website for this. Most are watching the news and coming to their own conclusions which are not positive.

But let's not kid ourselves....to what point did they actually get scolded? Just yesterday Theresa Spence was leading an INM teach in in Edmonton. They have used and continue to use whatever media attention (good or bad) they can get. To be fair....most of Canada hadn't heard about INN until Spence and the leaders did what they did. Too bad it was a double edge sword.

That's the way of movements.

It was in the news.

Idle No More founders distance themselves from chiefs

[Accountability Now]

They sure as hell aren't distancing them too far from the cheifs if they have Spence doing a teach in. I can guarantee you that Harper won't be using Brazeau for any engagements

[shortlived]

They sure as hell aren't distancing them too far from the cheifs if they have Spence doing a teach in. I can guarantee you that Harper won't be using Brazeau for any engagements

If I was Brazeau I would continue to sit as an independent indefinately.

See how fast he was dropped from Caucus. Without the details even being public on what actually happened. They are basically just saying what he did was wrong... even before the case starts... they are basically assuming him guilty.

If these allegations were against the PM you think he would resign as PM and leave caucus and cabinet?

Edited February 10, 2013 by shortlived

[Accountability Now]

If these allegations were against the PM you think he would resign as PM and leave caucus and cabinet?

You're right...guilty until proven innocent. But I can't blame Harper for taking some action although a suspension may have been a little more reasonable. Perhaps the Harper group knows more than the public does on this?

[WIP]

What should be investigated is why Harper appointed a man young enough to spend the next 40 years of his life sitting in the Red Chamber. There were already allegations of domestic assault - police called, no charges filed if I recall - same with financial malfeasance. Harper was just hoping he would have a loud mouth attack dog on side who was an Indian....to provide some cover from allegations of racism and discrimination....and then the Brazman got his ass kicked by a Liberal! If he had kept a low profile, many of us who don't pay close attention wouldn't have even noticed. I forgot all about his charity boxing match with Justin Trudeau, and no wonder - the fight wasn't really given high profile in the more liberal mainstream media, and the Tory media started acting like it never happened....just as they are doing now with the Brazman!

I took the channel block off of Sun News, just so I could check in and see if they have mentioned anything about Brazeau....and maybe those of you who watch that dreck regularly may have heard one of their propagandists say something, but in the days after the scandal broke, I couldn't find one mention of him any time that I checked in....it's like he vanished from right wing media that had hyped and overpromoted him in recent years. I can imagine that someone who actually depends on Sun and Canwest Global news media for all of their news, will be just as brainwashed as the mouth breathers south of the border who depend on FoxNews and right wing talk radio.

[jacee]

Since there is another thread on Brazeau, I'm posting this here in this thread about broader Indigenous issues and why 'patience is waning':

This is from an email, so no link. It's an example of governments stalling on land claims while development on relevant lands is pushed ahead without consultation or compensation.

Also about stolen/disappeared FN trust funds, wind farms, Ontario hydro costs, etc.

This is information from *******,our local Haldimand County expert on energy,that you might find interesting. In addition,I have included the technical data that you may wish to pass along to other people.

In South Cayuga,provincial crown land will have over a hundred monster turbines that will stretch about 48 stories into the skies. The South Cayuga crown lands should have been turned over to SixNations of the Grand River as a partial payment for flooded SixNations property a hundred years ago.

In the end,Samsung and the provincial money grabbers at Queen’s Park,have succeeded in putting the SixNations issues on the backburner. The Crown lands of South Cayuga will not likely be used for agricultural purposes now –at least not be anyone wishing to remain healthy and free of cancer.

I am told these giant turbines pay landowners up to $30,000 a year in royalties. The solar panels pay locals about $1300 a month. In the case of the South Cayuga crown lands who gets the royalties from Samsung??? I guess the Province of Ontario will be stuck with having to take $20,000 or $30,000 a year royalties for each turbine –and maybe 100 turbines would bring in $2,000,000 or $3,000,000 each and every year.

That would probably help pay for stuff like Queen’s Park limos and perk pensions and retirement gratuities every time a politician gets booted out of office by voters.

Then there are the 100 or so giant turbines going up near Beamsville and Smithville –who gets all that money.

I’m told each turbine here in Haldimand require a special cement costing up to $200 a yard ----about 20 cement truck loads to build one cement base 10 feet deep –lots of money for the cement people. There there will be all the trucking contracts hauling gravel and sand to the Dunnville area so cement can be made. Lots more money for a large cement and building contractor working nationally to cash in on. Then there is the erection contract that requires massive cranes –big corporations get that naturally –do they all know each other? How come some large national cement builder knows what’s going on down here in the boondoggies of Haldimand and how would a large national corporation get wind of the contracts and know precisely how much to bid to get the contract. Figure all that out for 200 giant turbines going in around the Niagara and Haldimand area ---and once established,the turbine blight will then progress as people sell off their farms to the turbine industry.

Nothing here for politicians to worry about –no votes in Haldimand or Niagara –to heck with those Haldimand and Niagara yokels,the politicians seem to have declared.

This is not about energy savings; this is all about creating a false environmental scenario to shut down Nanticoke generating station,firing 600 people holding jobs there,and pretending that wind turbines are the second coming of some Bay Street messiah ---and lots of cash for the people who buy into that scenario by kissing the rings of the bandits holding public office.

As I say,the South Cayuga lands were promised to the SixNations of the Grand River as PARTIAL PAYMENT of flooded lands years ago --flooding done in order to build the dam at Dunnville..

As I have mentioned before,all these “First Nations” issues being thrown across the tv and press are merely distractions –the real First Nation issue in Haldimand is the billions owed to the SixNations of the Grand River –no one in Ottawa wants to mention that fact and no one will ever talk about that issue ---politicians just keep the focus on other issues rather than deal with the theft of SixNations Trust funds that should by now,contain billions of dollars –but those funds were raided and removed over the years by Crown personnel –an investigation has been done countless numbers of times and all investigations conclude the same result –Six Nations ha vehad land stolen from them,Six Nations have had their Trust Funds stolen from them –and no accountability thus far from any level of Government.

Now,those South Cayuga lands will make money for greedy people in Government and a few greedy people in commerce will make it all happen and governments can say it is for the good of the people. The cost of this? Instead of householders throughout the Province paying 6 cents per kilowatt,the Province will pay Samsung up to 64 cents per kilowatt –and who will make up that difference in charges??? All of us will ---and we will be told it is good for us –well,at least good for the people cashing in on the $8 billion Samsung claims it will spend –and then Samsung will earn it all back of course by forcing us to buy the electricity at sky high prices.

Land claims are federal, wind farms and all resources are provincial ... and the feds and provinces make sure they are never coordinated.

Is it any wonder Indigenous Nations are frustrated?

Edited February 11, 2013 by jacee

[Accountability Now]

I took the channel block off of Sun News, just so I could check in and see if they have mentioned anything about Brazeau....and maybe those of you who watch that dreck regularly may have heard one of their propagandists say something, but in the days after the scandal broke, I couldn't find one mention of him any time that I checked in....it's like he vanished from right wing media that had hyped and overpromoted him in recent years.

I don't watch Sun that much however I did a quick search and easily found three videos on the issue. Perhaps you weren't trying too hard?

http://www.sunnewsnetwork.ca/video/search/brazeau/

My point was not to talk about Brazeau in detail. Rather its to show that you don't let the idiots take center stage like INM has let Spence do to their campaign. The leaders of Idle No More contiue to use Spence even though she is their 'Brazeau'.

[jacee]

I don't watch Sun that much however I did a quick search and easily found three videos on the issue. Perhaps you weren't trying too hard?

http://www.sunnewsnetwork.ca/video/search/brazeau/

My point was not to talk about Brazeau in detail. Rather its to show that you don't let the idiots take center stage like INM has let Spence do to their campaign. The leaders of Idle No More contiue to use Spence even though she is their 'Brazeau'.

Can you provide a link that supports your claim that "leaders" of INM are 'using' Spence?

I don't think you grasp the nature of a grassroots movement.

[Accountability Now]

Can you provide a link that supports your claim that "leaders" of INM are 'using' Spence?

I don't think you grasp the nature of a grassroots movement.

Here you go....

http://m.theglobeand...?service=mobile

She was the keynote speaker for an INM teach in session in Edmonton just last week.

Edited February 11, 2013 by Accountability Now

[jacee]

Here you go....

http://m.theglobeand...?service=mobile

She was the keynote speaker for an INM teach in session in Edmonton just last week.

Paywall.

Can you quote please?

[Accountability Now]

Paywall.

Can you quote please?

Globe and Mail is paywall?

Try this one

http://www.edmontonjournal.com/Idle+More+alive+well+University+Alberta+forum+hears/7940988/story.html

[Accountability Now]

Here is the article (copied and pasted). I highlighed specific line for you to focus on:

Attawapiskat Chief Theresa Spence is calling on fellow chiefs to continue advancing the Idle No More movement.

Ms. Spence joined an Idle No More panel discussion on Friday, saying by video link the movement cannot fade now that the liquid-diet fast she undertook to draw attention to native issues has ended.

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“I’m asking everyone to encourage all the chiefs to work with the grassroots people,” Ms. Spence said from Attawapiskat, Ont., after earlier lamenting: “Sometimes I feel it’s the leadership not fighting hard enough, because they’re afraid to.”

It was Ms. Spence’s first public speech since she returned home from her protest in Ottawa, organizers and Attawapiskat staff said. Ms. Spence told the crowd she’s still “suffering from the impact” of her fast.

“I’m getting better,” she said, thanking those who supported her. Treaty relationships are still broken and first nations people remain second-class citizens as “the white man law is always overstepping our own laws,” she told the crowd. “This is why we have to tell the government we’re not going to take this no more.”

Idle No More was launched by four women in Saskatoon last November, but Ms. Spence’s protest soon made her the reluctant face of the movement to push first nations rights into the spotlight.

Speakers at the University of Alberta seminar discussed how to keep the movement from fading. More ground-level organization is needed for it to be politically effective, said Wab Kinew, director of indigenous inclusion at the University of Winnipeg. “We have the potential for a very strong ground game,” he said, adding that the movement thrust first nations issues “into the national collective consciousness.”

“And what do we do with that? Do we say, ‘Oh well, we’ll try again next time?’ … No, we’ve come too far to turn back now,” he said.

Tanya Kappo, an early supporter of Idle No More, said the movement is in a “transition,” with supporters sorting out the next step. “It’s still all relevant, and people are still waiting and wanting something different,” Ms. Kappo said.

The movement has been overwhelming, said Cecil Nepoose, a panelist who is an elder of the Samson Cree in Alberta. “[Ms. Spence] is leading the process, and the council and the chiefs are caught in the middle. They don’t have the understanding if they haven’t had the grassroots experience,” he said.

Heather Nooski, 31, of the Wet’suwet’en First Nation in B.C., was among the 300 people at the seminar. She called Ms. Spence a role model, and didn’t expect Idle No More to fade away. “It’s not going to stop. It won’t,” she said

[jacee]

Thanks.

It doesn't appear to me that she was "the keynote speaker":

Ms. Spence joined an Idle No More panel discussion on Friday, ... by video link ...

It is also clarified:

Idle No More was launched by four women in Saskatoon last November, but Ms. Spence’s protest soon made her the reluctant face of the movement to push first nations rights into the spotlight.

And finally, Chief Spence's message is directed to the AFN elected Chiefs, of whom she is one:

“I’m asking everyone to encourage all the chiefs to work with the grassroots people,” Ms. Spence said ...

The reason I may seem to belabour the point is this:

It is a strong tendency, and a great mistake, for the media and some observers to try to reduce the INM movement to soundbytes from a small select group of leaders, who can then be individually criticised and dismissed, and the entire movement along with them.

AFN Chiefs are vulnerable: Their paycheques and funding come from the federal government. Thus, they can be intimidated into silence, and often are. In fact, Harper has several times made open threats to withhold funding for their communities if they don't shut up.

The INM movement does not 'belong' to the AFN chiefs, and they do not lead it, though they may join it like anyone else.

It belongs to the people.

I think that message comes through in the article somewhat, despite the media's focus on Chief Spence.

[Accountability Now]

The reason I may seem to belabour the point is this:

It is a strong tendency, and a great mistake, for the media and some observers to try to reduce the INM movement to soundbytes from a small select group of leaders, who can then be individually criticised and dismissed,

Jacee...you just do t get it. If the conservatives or liberals or any other political movement had a train wreck like Spence they would backbench them or get rid of them. Yet INM continues to hold her high up.

And don't give me this media crap. The media didn't do the fake hunger strike. The media didn't put shout the threats. And the media didn't put on INM t- shirts and block roads. The media can only do so much but ultimately the story tells itself.

The true tendency that shows is how FN people would rather side with their own (even if they are train wrecks) rather than admitting they did something wrong. The same way that no one calls out the cheifs. The minute you do speak out and criticize...you are alienated by the group. The rest of Canada can see the troubles but no one in the FN side will admit to it. This example here is case in point. You could have said yes, Spence is a train wreck and we should have anything to do with her. But that would mean agreeing with the enemy...right?

[WIP]

Since there is another thread on Brazeau, I'm posting this here in this thread about broader Indigenous issues and why 'patience is waning':

I thought I was on the other thread based on the posts I was responding to!

[jacee]

Jacee...you just do t get it. If the conservatives or liberals or any other political movement had a train wreck like Spence they would backbench them or get rid of them. Yet INM continues to hold her high up.

And don't give me this media crap. The media didn't do the fake hunger strike. The media didn't put shout the threats. And the media didn't put on INM t- shirts and block roads. The media can only do so much but ultimately the story tells itself.

The true tendency that shows is how FN people would rather side with their own (even if they are train wrecks) rather than admitting they did something wrong. The same way that no one calls out the cheifs. The minute you do speak out and criticize...you are alienated by the group. The rest of Canada can see the troubles but no one in the FN side will admit to it. This example here is case in point. You could have said yes, Spence is a train wreck and we should have anything to do with her. But that would mean agreeing with the enemy...right?

Chief Spence's actions certainly got a lot of national and international attention.

A grassroots movement that survives doesn't waste a lot of energy on infighting and backbiting. Everyone chooses their own way to accomplish common goals.

It's not clear to me whether you

1) agree with the purposes and issuesof the INM movement but are frustrated because you think they're doing it wrong, or

2) disagree with the purposes and issues of INM and are looking for reasons to dismiss it.

?

Edited February 12, 2013 by jacee

[Accountability Now]

Chief Spence's actions certainly got a lot of national and international attention.

A grassroots movement that survives doesn't waste a lot of energy on infighting and backbiting. Everyone chooses their own way to accomplish common goals.

Ok...I'm not asking INM if she's a train wreck and bad for their cause. I'm asking you. If you could choose to eliminate her from the face of the INM movement...would you? This is pretty much a yes or no answer so no side stepping.

It's not clear to me whether you

1) agree with the purposes and issuesof the INM movement but are frustrated because you think they're doing it wrong, or

2) disagree with the purposes and issues of INM and are looking for reasons to dismiss it.

I'm not sure what isn't clear. I stated from the beginnning that I agreed with certain points from the INM movement and not others. Moreso I beleive that others in the group (Spence, Cheifs, and road blockers) have totally distracted and set back their cause. Am I looking for reasons to dismiss it? No....I already have and so have most Canadians. Any movement that lacks the integrity and coherency that INM does deserves to be dismissed.

[jacee]

Ok...I'm not asking INM if she's a train wreck and bad for their cause. I'm asking you. If you could choose to eliminate her from the face of the INM movement...would you? This is pretty much a yes or no answer so no side stepping.

Your question is simply irrelevant.

A grassroots movement consists of whoever chooses to join. Nobody decides for/against anybody else, though they may as a group decide for/against certain strategies.

You are hopelessly mired in a hierarchical model of 'operation' where someone has authority to give orders.

Am I looking for reasons to dismiss it? No....I already have

Thanks for clarifying.

[DFCaper]

I think the problem is what INM wants is for everything to be better. The problem is to get there, there has to be many different steps to get there. And it will take time. I don't think INM no longer wants it to be in Steps, but one giant leap.

When It first started, I thought it was about Bill C45. Then it morphed into an "Everything" movement. If they were able to stick to the original purpose, then they could have clear achievable objectives, with a great chance to be successful. A lot of conservatives are not fans of omnibus bills, so I think they would have had a great opportunity to make a difference here.

Now it has become unfocused and about too many things. The general public has lost interest in it as far as I can tell and I cannot see it going anywhere. I figure when the weather warms up, it will start making more noise, but accomplish nothing. It's hard to work towards a goal when you are distracted by having too many goals. I just keep thinking Occupy... The perfect example of wanting everything, but accomplishing nothing. At least the Tea Party got people elected.

For the INM that has to do with reserve conditions, they should avoid being influenced by labour unions and other political advocacy groups. I think Harper has been no worst (outside of C45) to the aboriginals than any other PM. The apology for the residential schools help educate a younger Canadian generation about that event. One that gathers the most sympathy from bystanders like myself.

[Boges]

Seems like the INM movement has petered out in the coverage it's getting from the MSM.

I wonder if it's because of the obvious foolishness related to Teresa Spence and her mismanagement of her reserve yet she become the number one person related to this movement.

[Accountability Now]

You are hopelessly mired in a hierarchical model of 'operation' where someone has authority to give orders.

You are hopelessly mired in not answering questions. It is hopeless talking to you. All I asked was for your opinion and you can't even do that? Are you afraid your cheif will find out and not pay you from his fund? Are you afraid you will be banished from the tribe? The question was not irrelevant at all....you have tried to make it irrelevant because you don't want to answer it. Have fun with your head in the sand. If I feel any sorrow for the native population, its only because they have no desire to be accountable. But its like your FN legal council said "Poverty is usually and most effectively cured with money, not “accountability.”" Good luck with that.

http://www.theglobea...article7029504/

Edited February 12, 2013 by Accountability Now

[Accountability Now]

One that gathers the most sympathy from bystanders like myself.

You hit the nail on the head. The INM movement, whether they like it or not, needs to win over the rest of Canada. The Federal government will continue doing what it does because they think that is what they think the people who elected them want. From a democtratic point of view, the Native population doesn't have a voice due to its numbers. If they presented a logical, well thought out argument which is void of drama and idiots then at least they would have a chance to win over bystanders. But alas...people have turned them off already because they don't want to play it that way.

[jacee]

You are hopelessly mired in not answering questions. It is hopeless talking to you. All I asked was for your opinion and you can't even do that?

Ask a relevant question.

Are you afraid your cheif will find out and not pay you from his fund? Are you afraid you will be banished from the tribe?

I'm not Indigenous.

And you are being rude.

The question was not irrelevant at all....you have tried to make it irrelevant because you don't want to answer it. Have fun with your head in the sand.

Irrelevant.

If I feel any sorrow for the native population, its only because they have no desire to be accountable. But its like your FN legal council said "Poverty is usually and most effectively cured with money, not “accountability.”" Good luck with that.

http://www.theglobea...article7029504/

(Paywall)

Your "sorrow" is touching.

I feel the same way about corporate lobbyists paid via corporate welfare subsidies, and also political party hacks paid by taxpayers to impose political will on bureaucrats.

I guess we all have our pet peeves.

What I was really getting at is this:

You dismissed INM before it started.

Thus, your criticism of individuals and strategies is ...

irrelevant.

It's like me complaining about how corporate lobbyists do their job when I don't think they should do it at all ...

irrelevant.

Edited February 13, 2013 by jacee

[Accountability Now]

Irrelevant. Ottawa. Noodles.

See...I can say random things to avoid questions too.

Your problem is that you don't even read what people are saying. I said two or three times that I agreed with INM to begin with but it lost me with their antics. But your head is in the sand and you don't see that I have said that.

One suggestion....stop trying to make yourself look good by copying and pasting other people's ideas. Have an idea of your own. Even if its a bad idea at least it shows you're trying.