End of the Civilised World

[WIP]

We are part of "nature", and have only been around for a blip in time. Mass extinctions occurred several times before we ever showed up. The planet doesn't really care either way. Scratching about on the thin crust or ocean does not kill an entire planet.

Well, you are taking a leap into the absurd, or at least somewhere I don't want to go! I thought the future of our species might be important for some reason.

[Guest]

Well, you are taking a leap into the absurd, or at least somewhere I don't want to go! I thought the future of our species might be important for some reason.

It's not. I would like to see a kind of "Firefly" galaxy come about, but what happens to us will just happen. Not really important either way.

[jbg]

Am I the only person who is thinking about the end of our civilised world?

Quite apart from Maya calendars, Fiscal Cliffs, Greek/euro defaults... there seems to be a fatigue. We in the West are tired, old. We are pensioners.

The Enlightenment of Voltaire is now the Revolt of Cairo; we are sadly back to the ancient dispute between poor against rich.

You left out Sandy. But she has quite a breezy personality.

[Hudson Jones]

Yes, but that's because building pyramids is done through the use of sustainable resources....as far as I know, we're not going to run out of limestone. As for our survival...or more correctly, the survival of future generations, their survival depends on how the planet's biosphere adjusts and reacts to what we have done so far to terraform the world to our liking. And that makes it crapshoot at best!

Well said.

[August1991]

When did we depart it?

After the New World was discovered, when those European Catholics and Protestants arrived.

You're talking about possible causes for an end to civilization, and yet you fail to notice the hard limit that WILL cause the crash or the unwinding of our present civilization: resource scarcities and environmental degradation.

Despite what western Leftists often believe, resources are not fixed. Life, surprisingly, is not a zero-sum game.

----

While Leftists fear encroaching destruction of the Environment, I fear encroaching destruction of the world of ideas.

As humans, we possibly could destroy our physical environment. But we are more likely to destroy this world of ideas, and push us back into a Dark World of ignorance. Do gooders, Leftist moralists, have done this several times.

To me:

A Leftist wants to use the power of the State to "better" individuals.

The Right wants to "establish" and limit the power of the State.

Edited December 9, 2012 by August1991

[dre]

After the New World was discovered, when those European Catholics and Protestants arrived.

Despite what western Leftists often believe, resources are not fixed. Life, surprisingly, is not a zero-sum game.

----

While Leftists fear encroaching destruction of the Environment, I fear encroaching destruction of the world of ideas.

As humans, we possibly could destroy our physical environment. But we are more likely to destroy this world of ideas, and push us back into a Dark World of ignorance. Do gooders, Leftist moralists, have done this several times.

To me:

A Leftist wants to use the power of the State to "better" individuals.

The Right wants to "establish" and limit the power of the State.

Oh christ...

[jacee]

After the New World was discovered, when those European Catholics and Protestants arrived.

Despite what western Leftists often believe, resources are not fixed. Life, surprisingly, is not a zero-sum game.

----

While Leftists fear encroaching destruction of the Environment, I fear encroaching destruction of the world of ideas.

As humans, we possibly could destroy our physical environment. But we are more likely to destroy this world of ideas, and push us back into a Dark World of ignorance. Do gooders, Leftist moralists, have done this several times.

To me:

A Leftist wants to use the power of the State to "better" individuals.

The Right wants to "establish" and limit the power of the State.

Really? Can you tell me how Harper has limited the power of the state ... in particular, the PMO?

[jbg]

Really? Can you tell me how Harper has limited the power of the state ... in particular, the PMO?

The fixed election law is one.

[WIP]

After the New World was discovered, when those European Catholics and Protestants arrived.

Despite what western Leftists often believe, resources are not fixed. Life, surprisingly, is not a zero-sum game.

----

While Leftists fear encroaching destruction of the Environment, I fear encroaching destruction of the world of ideas.

As humans, we possibly could destroy our physical environment. But we are more likely to destroy this world of ideas, and push us back into a Dark World of ignorance. Do gooders, Leftist moralists, have done this several times.

To me:

A Leftist wants to use the power of the State to "better" individuals.

The Right wants to "establish" and limit the power of the State.

Just as I figured, you live in theoretical La La Land! But, you probably don't realize it because you have so much company in there. At least 99% of economic discussion....whether it calls itself liberal or conservative or even marxist for that matter, begins from the standpoint that nature is collection of resources to be harvested for our use and enjoyment. The notion that our independence from nature is illusory, since we take the biosphere systems that recycle the atmosphere, the water, the soil, all for granted, does not mean that whatever our economic dreams are, are not dependent on the basic biospheric systems continuing to function normally. Heck, most people even take the non-renewable resources for granted....as you are doing here....but there are absolute limits to the quantities of metals, minerals and stored carbon in the ground, but that's not the threshold peak oil and peak resource theorists are concerned about. It's the inverse relationship between energy and materials cost of extraction to what is still left in the ground available for use. As we go deeper underground, extraction costs rise, just as the harvesting of lower and lower grade ores requires more energy and excavation to be done to acquire the same amounts. Our modern capitalist system has expanded energy and resource consumption so rapidly, especially in this modern era of globalization, that the majority of essential non-renewable natural resources are already adding costs due to growing scarcity, and especially oil, is the prime reason why real economic growth is NOT happening today. I'll go out on a limb and declare that no nation is going to achieve those good old days of 10% annual GDP growth again, because of the impact on oil prices if nothing else!

In this past U.S. election season, many Democrats were pretending it was 1933, while Republicans were pretending it was 1980. But neither scenario will occur with the application of either Keynsian or Friedmanomic theories because both of them were constructed on a cheap oil economy that no longer exists. The new economic reality will have to adapt to zero economic growth or declining economic growth. Any increases will be temporary and lead to sharper declines afterwards.