Hamas is neither moral, ethical nor civilised.

[GostHacked]

Agree with Peeves but I use term "Jew hater" or "anti-Jew" to deal with these deflecting, frivolous comments.

Using those terms as well is wrong and allows you and others to sideline debate.

[jbg]

Using those terms as well is wrong and allows you and others to sideline debate.

How so? "Anti-Semite" is technically wrong.

[GostHacked]

How so? "Anti-Semite" is technically wrong.

Anti-jew is also wrong. Criticizing Israel is not a hate crime no matter how much you want to see it that way. Criticizing Israel does not mean one is an anti-semite, or anti-jew. But it allows one to cry racism when Israel is criticized. It's sickening really. It's an attempt to detract from what is being argued or disputed. It gets all those emotions in the way and prevents one from using their brain with some critical thought.

[DogOnPorch]

Anti-jew is also wrong. Criticizing Israel is not a hate crime no matter how much you want to see it that way. Criticizing Israel does not mean one is an anti-semite, or anti-jew. But it allows one to cry racism when Israel is criticized. It's sickening really. It's an attempt to detract from what is being argued or disputed. It gets all those emotions in the way and prevents one from using their brain with some critical thought.

I suppose that would hold water if the same folks making all the "anti-Zionist" threads also devoted the same attention to other areas of the planet. But...alas...

[Canuckistani]

I suppose that would hold water if the same folks making all the "anti-Zionist" threads also devoted the same attention to other areas of the planet. But...alas...

Nice strawman. I make anti-Zionist comments if Zionism means creation of greater Israel. We've gone from somebody calling me an anti-Semite, to "no, it's anti-Jew" to now your lame attempt to call it anti-Zionism. Again, if anti-Zionism means how I defined it, then yes, I'm an anti-Zionist, and make no apologies for it. It's a perfectly legitimate position, and using race baiting just shows people arguing against me have nothing else to offer.

[Guest Peeves]

I suppose that would hold water if the same folks making all the "anti-Zionist" threads also devoted the same attention to other areas of the planet. But...alas...

I still see nothing wrong with being a Zionist

http://www.jewishvir...ource/zion.html

Zionism

:

The national movement for the return of the Jewish people to their homeland and the resumption of Jewish sovereignty in the Land of Israel. Has come to include the development of the State of Israel and the protection of the Jewish nation in Israel.

Zionism avocated, from inception, tangible as well as spiritual aims. Jews of all persuasions - left and right,

religious

and secular - joined to form the Zionist movement and worked together toward these goals. Disagreements led to rifts, but ultimately, the common goal of a

Jewish state

in its ancient homeland was attained.

The term “Zionism” was coined in 1890 by

Nathan Birnbaum

.

[DogOnPorch]

I still see nothing wrong with being a Zionist

http://www.jewishvir...ource/zion.html

Zionism

:

The national movement for the return of the Jewish people to their homeland and the resumption of Jewish sovereignty in the Land of Israel. Has come to include the development of the State of Israel and the protection of the Jewish nation in Israel.

Zionism avocated, from inception, tangible as well as spiritual aims. Jews of all persuasions - left and right,

religious

and secular - joined to form the Zionist movement and worked together toward these goals. Disagreements led to rifts, but ultimately, the common goal of a

Jewish state

in its ancient homeland was attained.

The term “Zionism” was coined in 1890 by

Nathan Birnbaum

.

Growing-up, the word Zionist was so rarely used in this country that when it was first started to be used heavily, it took me aback. Zionism is the quest for a Jewish state in the Holy Land. Already a reality, I had thought. This term often seems to come from Israel's opponents, now, who seek to delegitimize Israel and Israelis as a nation state.

[Canuckistani]

What's amazing to me is that the defenders of greater Israel want to do to the Palestinians exactly what they call racism when the push is in the other direction. Pushing Israel into the sea or pushing the Palestinians into the Jordan are two sides of the same coin.

[Guest Peeves]

Growing-up, the word Zionist was so rarely used in this country that when it was first started to be used heavily, it took me aback. Zionism is the quest for a Jewish state in the Holy Land. Already a reality, I had thought. This term often seems to come from Israel's opponents, now, who seek to delegitimize Israel and Israelis as a nation state.

Like after the treatment of Jews historically they shouldn't aspire to return to their original homeland and a Jewish state. Like they left there originally of their own accord. Like those in the diaspora ere treated well, Russia, Germany, Poland, Spain, France, Canada, And while accommodated with conditions in Muslim countries they were pretty much driven out eventually from there as well.

Certainly a desire for something better would be understandable , well it would if you weren't biased against Jews.

As for the claim that Israel is acquiring land, that's crap. Israel accepts that some parts of the captured lands are disputed, they simply have no reason yet to give anything up.Why should they?

And as for pursuing more land, just where would that be? They left the Sinai the Gaza, the Lebanon. Those claiming that Israel has designs on other land are nuts and have nothing (but the sliver of land now controlled by Israelis, and that can hardly be considered a land grab of any proportion. I ask quo vadis? And quo vadis yet again, for looking without, there is no place to go beyond your present place. Beyond there be dragons.

Best ye then protect what thoust inhabit for others will conspire to deny you anything but return to dust and ash.

Quo vadis

[Guest Peeves]

What's amazing to me is that the defenders of greater Israel want to do to the Palestinians exactly what they call racism when the push is in the other direction. Pushing Israel into the sea or pushing the Palestinians into the Jordan are two sides of the same coin.

Nonsense. Arabs have umpteen choices of life. Israel has Israel. Your accusation is but propaganda unsupportable. Israel has only pushed back when pushed. Arabs are not being pushed anywhere exept perhaps by Egypt and Jordan and out of countries like Syria and Iran where they must leave for freedom. Ask a Chhritian in Egypt where they once were a majority who is pushing.

[Canuckistani]

I guess it's convenient to just lump all the Arabs together. Israel has Israel, it should be satisfied with that. Like Germany should have been before WWII.

[Guest Peeves]

I guess it's convenient to just lump all the Arabs together. Israel has Israel, it should be satisfied with that. Like Germany should have been before WWII.

So just where is Israel going to expand. Let's see some concrete evidence that they can and just where that will be?

Hotzenplotz or Osoblaha maybe? Lets us in on some of your details.

[Canuckistani]

So just where is Israel going to expand. Let's see some concrete evidence that they can and just where that will be?

Hotzenplotz or Osoblaha maybe? Lets us in on some of your details.

If you can make silly posts like this, there's no point discussing this with you.

[jbg]

Zionism

:

Zionism avocated, from inception, tangible as well as spiritual aims. Jews of all persuasions - left and right,

religious

and secular - joined to form the Zionist movement and worked together toward these goals. Disagreements led to rifts, but ultimately, the common goal of a

Jewish state

in its ancient homeland was attained.

The term “Zionism” was coined in 1890 by

Nathan Birnbaum

.

Growing-up, the word Zionist was so rarely used in this country that when it was first started to be used heavily, it took me aback. Zionism is the quest for a Jewish state in the Holy Land. Already a reality, I had thought. This term often seems to come from Israel's opponents, now, who seek to delegitimize Israel and Israelis as a nation state.

I thought Zionism was a form of racism and racial discrimination.

[DogOnPorch]

I thought Zionism was a form of racism and racial discrimination.

From Israel's opponents it is. It assumes the country called Israel is not legitimate if the folks living there are still questing Zionists.

[dre]

I suppose that would hold water if the same folks making all the "anti-Zionist" threads also devoted the same attention to other areas of the planet. But...alas...

Man said that someone past about grade 3 could trot out this kind of logical fallacy.

[bleeding heart]

Man said that someone past about grade 3 could trot out this kind of logical fallacy.

Especially since those who continually make the complaint are themselves preoccupied with the issue, to the diminishment of others.

Why are the critics of the Palestinians ignoring the far worse atrocities in the Congo?

(Jeez, you're right, Dre! That's grade 3 easy, at worst.)

Edited November 29, 2012 by bleeding heart

[DogOnPorch]

Especially since those who continually make the complaint are themselves preoccupied with the issue, to the diminishment of others.

Why are the critics of the Palestinians ignoring the far worse atrocities in the Congo?

(Jeez, you're right, Dre! That's grade 3 easy, at worst.)

I don't start threads.

[Guest Peeves]

If you can make silly posts like this, there's no point discussing this with you.

You make outlandish statements, don't defend them, don't provide backup, but call my post silly. I want you to tell me where Israel is extending,expanding or going to take land.

Germany takes Poland.

Israel moves into Omar's back yard.

Germany takes France

Israel moves into Hussein's street.

Germany annexes Austria and western Czechoslovakia.

Israeli's buy the local barber shop .

Germany invades Denmark and Norway.

Israel builds on Arafat Way.

Germany invades the British Channel islands.

Israel builds settler house.

Germany (Italy) invades Africa-Egypt, bombs London,

Israel builds settler home on disputed (since war victory) land

German troops enter their Ally Romania.

Israel provides cement for West Bank Plaza.

Yup completely compares to Germany's lebensraum agenda.

Except it doesn't.

Now for the umpteenth time tell me where and when and how Israel can follow you expansionist claim.

Or alternatively stop your unsupportable propagana

[Guest Peeves]

Now anyone familiar with the geography should know (or can certainly Google) that surrounded as Israel is by Arab countries there is obviously no place to expand unless of course there's a war. Now tell me how likely it is for Israel to attack ..Jordan, Egypt..Syria ?

[Canuckistani]

Now anyone familiar with the geography should know (or can certainly Google) that surrounded as Israel is by Arab countries there is obviously no place to expand unless of course there's a war. Now tell me how likely it is for Israel to attack ..Jordan, Egypt..Syria ?

. 'Oh, Israel is so small, it's only 9km wide at the narrowest point. we have to take the West Bank." Lebensraum argument.

[WIP]

I still see nothing wrong with being a Zionist

http://www.jewishvir...ource/zion.html

Zionism

:

The national movement for the return of the Jewish people to their homeland and the resumption of Jewish sovereignty in the Land of Israel. Has come to include the development of the State of Israel and the protection of the Jewish nation in Israel.

Zionism avocated, from inception, tangible as well as spiritual aims. Jews of all persuasions - left and right,

religious

and secular - joined to form the Zionist movement and worked together toward these goals. Disagreements led to rifts, but ultimately, the common goal of a

Jewish state

in its ancient homeland was attained.

The term “Zionism” was coined in 1890 by

Nathan Birnbaum

.

That would be fine if there was nobody already living there, and poor, itinerate locals didn't have to be swindled off their land, first in the land-grabs where absentee landowners connected with the Ottoman Empire collected the money in land purchases, and later, most of the those who refused or were reluctant to leave were just forced off their land....let's just say that I find the typical Zionist alibi - they left voluntarily - to be totally ludicrous.

Another bone of contention that has been rarely mentioned, is that the locals may have been backward, but they did not want their lives to change; so even though many of the young, idealistic, educated Zionists coming from Europe may have had good intentions to bring them into the 20th century -- Palestine was mostly populated by people who didn't want what western culture offered!

Another point for historians to play with is a strongly supported (but not absolutely proven) claim that Lord Balfour promised Palestine to two different groups of people after WWI -- the Jews and an independent state for the Arab locals. It's easy to see how that wartime strategy could set in motion a never-ending conflict.

[Guest Peeves]

. 'Oh, Israel is so small, it's only 9km wide at the narrowest point. we have to take the West Bank." Lebensraum argument.

Still can't support your contention " Lebensraum argument." with any facts, so I suggest that you cease your false charges, your inflammatory remarks and your trolling with specious, fallacious propaganda.

Prove it or stop it.

[Canuckistani]

I doubt I could ever prove it to your satisfaction, but your post about Israel in Lake Michigan is all the proof I need. Israel is the size it is, Israelis should live with it, not follow their expansionist policies into Palestine. (Or whatever the Palestinians want to call their state.)

[Guest Peeves]

That would be fine if there was nobody already living there, and poor, itinerate locals didn't have to be swindled off their land, first in the land-grabs where absentee landowners connected with the Ottoman Empire collected the money in land purchases, and later, most of the those who refused or were reluctant to leave were just forced off their land....let's just say that I find the typical Zionist alibi - they left voluntarily - to be totally ludicrous.

Link to Ottoman collection of funds to that end please.

Another bone of contention that has been rarely mentioned, is that the locals may have been backward, but they did not want their lives to change; so even though many of the young, idealistic, educated Zionists coming from Europe may have had good intentions to bring them into the 20th century -- Palestine was mostly populated by people who didn't want what western culture offered!

Populated also by Jews. Also nearly the same numbers of Citizen Jews were ousted from Arab countries.\

Besides Israel was legitimately created then attacked which is often ignored.

Another point for historians to play with is a strongly supported (but not absolutely proven) claim that Lord Balfour promised Palestine to two different groups of people after WWI -- the Jews and an independent state for the Arab locals. It's easy to see how that wartime strategy could set in motion a never-ending conflict.

It is a fact that the Arabs turned down an opportunity of an Arab state offered at the same time. They chose to attack the Jewish state, and have continued to do so ever since.