Hamas is neither moral, ethical nor civilised.

[Guest American Woman]

So...any clue as to what that structure is and its significance?

It's The Tombs of the Patriarchs in Hebron in the West Bank - where Abraham and Sarah, Isaac and Rebekah, and Jacob and Leah are buried. The site is sacred to Jews, Christians, and Muslims.

• 
  

[DogOnPorch]

It's The Tombs of the Patriarchs in Hebron in the West Bank - where Abraham and Sarah, Isaac and Rebekah, and Jacob and Leah are buried. The site is sacred to Jews, Christians, and Muslims.

Indeed. Particularly important to Jews. To Muslims, it is important BECAUSE its important to the Jews. Same deal with the Temple Mount. Interesting that it took you to identify this building while our resident Mid-East experts could not.

[Guest Peeves]

You mean you need me to provide a link that shows that Jewish settlements exist and are expanding? Really?

Your map showing the size of Israel is classic Lebensraum argument as well. What's the size of Israel got to do with anything. It is what it is. Jews have no more right to larger territory than the Palestinians do, and they have to make do with a lot less to begin with.

You are a dummkopf with the brains of a potato. Oh,and a fabulists.

Edit: I can't prove you have a brain like a potato. I apologize .. to the potato.

Edited November 30, 2012 by Peeves

[Canuckistani]

You are a dummkopf with the brains of a potato. Oh,and a fabulists.

OK, if you think that really furthers your argument. I guess I should be glad you didn't call me a poopyhead.

Edited November 30, 2012 by Canuckistani

[Guest Peeves]

It's The Tombs of the Patriarchs in Hebron in the West Bank - where Abraham and Sarah, Isaac and Rebekah, and Jacob and Leah are buried. The site is sacred to Jews, Christians, and Muslims.

• 
  

If Muslims controlled that, Christians and Jews would likely be verboten!

[DogOnPorch]

If Muslims controlled that, Christians and Jews would likely be verboten!

They were when Jordan controlled it.

[Guest Peeves]

They were when Jordan controlled it.

I know. and, would be.

[DogOnPorch]

I know. and, would be.

Islam will be sitting in the catbird's seat...holding the other two 'people's of the book' main religious sites hostage. No infidels allowed in Mecca, of course.

[wyly]

If Muslims controlled that, Christians and Jews would likely be verboten!

for nearly 1,400 yrs the muslims controlled the region and jews and christians continued to lived and worship there, when the crusaders breifly controlled Jerusalem who did they slaughter? the jews...do try and work on your history...

[DogOnPorch]

for nearly 1,400 yrs the muslims controlled the region and jews and christians continued to lived and worship there, when the crusaders breifly controlled Jerusalem who did they slaughter? the jews...do try and work on your history...

Yes...the poor Jews didn't fare well during the first few Crusades due to the Christ Blood Libel and the rather zealous nature of those early endeavors. But, the role of the Jew in Medieval Europe was usually for nobles to get around Usury laws. They were often tolerated as long as the economy was good. So eventually the various sponsors of these Crusades needed the Jews once again when their coffers ran low. Those Jews left alive, that is. I think it was Hungary or Turkey...someplace like that where they were slaughtered in droves. Christian nobles also felt no guilt in canceling their debts to their Jewish lenders if things went sour.

Of course, the Crusades themselves were the Middle Ages version of a lightning response* to the activities of the Muslims not only in the Holy Land, but elsewhere including the heartlands of Europe. It was also handy in keeping local nobles from fighting each other about whose sheep got to graze where...giving them an almost nationalistic cause as well as a religious cause to fight for.

The Muslims arrived under Umar in the mid 7th century, conducting a vast military campaign against the Christian Byzantine Empire. Jerusalem was more or less in ruins at the time...a shadow of itself in the days of Herod, etc. Its defenders didn't last long and eventually let open the gates to avoid being slaughtered. Umar, aware of the history of the place asked to be taken to the Jewish Temple which was in ruins. Legend says he began to immediately clean the trash strewn area where the Jewish foundation stone lay claiming it to be the location of the Koran's 'furthest mosque' where Mohammed went to heaven. So you can see there was trouble a brewin' from day one...lol.

* lol

Edited December 1, 2012 by DogOnPorch

[WIP]

You mean your solution to ethnically cleanse Palestine of Palestinians? If somebody "settles" in your house, would you call it ethnic cleansing if they are removed?

And, if you think Israel can take over the West Bank and keep all the Palestinians within this greater Israel without a demographic timebomt blowing the "Jewish State" out of the water, you haven't been paying attention. If Israel wants a Jewish state, they need to do it with a majority of Jews, or do you see some sort of South African situation developing here?

It seems simple enough! If this was South Africa, there would only be a small cadre of imperialists trying to justify Apartheid and ethnic cleansing. If the Serbs weren't allowed to ethnically cleanse one of their provinces of Albanians that had moved in mostly after WWII during the Soviet Era, why should Israel have the right to plant their flag anywhere they like?

But, now I'm going to regret stepping back into another one of these threads where there's no shortage of Israel Lobby talking points and minions to distribute them freely!

[DogOnPorch]

It seems simple enough! If this was South Africa, there would only be a small cadre of imperialists trying to justify Apartheid and ethnic cleansing. If the Serbs weren't allowed to ethnically cleanse one of their provinces of Albanians that had moved in mostly after WWII during the Soviet Era, why should Israel have the right to plant their flag anywhere they like?

But, now I'm going to regret stepping back into another one of these threads where there's no shortage of Israel Lobby talking points and minions to distribute them freely!

How many Jews are left in....say....Egypt? Less than 100?? Seems some REAL ethnic cleansing is going on.

[Rue]

for nearly 1,400 yrs the muslims controlled the region and jews and christians continued to lived and worship there, when the crusaders breifly controlled Jerusalem who did they slaughter? the jews...do try and work on your history...

Your ignorance of Jewish history continues. It did not surprise me you would trivialize the holocaust and suggest Jews died like anyone else in the holocaust and were just deaths like anyone else completely ignoring the actual reason Jews died and how they were targetted but now you try white-wash the the Muslim occupation of Jerusalem as if it was a utopia and only Christians slaughtered Jews.

Wyly I used to think you were simply ignorant of history now I see it is actually deliberate and selective and so in my opinion I found your repeated attempts to revise history to white-wash those portions of it not advantageous to your political agenda on this forum to be insincere.

People can find out for themselves what happened to dhimmis, Jews, Christians and other non Muslims in the Muslim world. The thing about history Wyly is its there for all to find despite your attempts to revise it.

Edited December 25, 2012 by Rue

[Rue]

It seems simple enough! If this was South Africa, there would only be a small cadre of imperialists trying to justify Apartheid and ethnic cleansing. If the Serbs weren't allowed to ethnically cleanse one of their provinces of Albanians that had moved in mostly after WWII during the Soviet Era, why should Israel have the right to plant their flag anywhere they like?

But, now I'm going to regret stepping back into another one of these threads where there's no shortage of Israel Lobby talking points and minions to distribute them freely!

Your analogy again shows a remarkable ignorance of not just Jewish history but international law.

Your analogy is absolutely illogical. The West Bank was neverpart of any nation,. The provinces in Yugoslavia were, The fact you can not see the difference is typical of you and so many others who come on this forum and fail to understand the legal difference between occupying land already part of a sovereign nation and land never part of any sovereign nation.

Next Israelis are not imperialists and for you to suggest they are repeats yet another myth and reflection of your sheer ignorance of where Jews originated.

Jews are not native to Europe. They are native to the very land you claim they are imperilaists to. Your attempt to suggest they aren't is an age old anti-semitic canard that suggests Jews are not aboriginal to the Middle East and we just suddenly appeared there from Europe. That line by the way was drated by ex Nazis in Damascus, Syria where they moved after World War Two and then later recycled by the Soviets. Good to see you still parrot it.

The fact is Jews were never imperialist. They returned whence they came. They were no more foreign to Israel and Palestine then Muslims who moved there from outside Palestine and Israel. In your world though if a Jew moved to Palestine they were an imperialist. When a Muslim did you simply now call them Palestinian.More Muslims flooded Palestine and displaced Palestinians then any Jews from Europe. There descendants now call themselves Palestinians simply because they choose to identify as Palestinians now. When an Israeli choses to identify as an Israeli though, you have a double standard. Any Muslim can have a Muslim state and now a second Palestinian state after Jordan all with constitutions forbidding Jews equal rights to

Muslims in these Muslim States, but if Jews want a Jewish state, you find it problematic and cal it imperialist.

Tell me where were you in 1949 when the so called imperialist nations of France,Britain and the reminents of Nazi Germnany propped the ArabLeague armies. Where were you when the British led the Arab League armies and air force in a fight to drive out the Jews from now called Israel?

Where were you? Where were you when holocaust survivors had to flee the very imperialists you call them and fight them to survive?

Where were you when 900, 000 Jews, far more then any misplaced Palestinians, were thrown out of the Arab world and had all their property stolen and who took them in? You? Your parents? Did they move into your neighbourhood? Did you fret about them as you do now the Palestinians?

700,000 of them had to go to Israel precisely beause no one would take them.The US took in abou 140,000 and the rest went to relatives in France, Britain and some paid there way into Argentina.

Good now that we have that straight you want ethnic cleansing? You want to lecture Jews about ethnic cleansing and being imperialist. We were the target of the world's most targetted and immoral of ethic cleansings of imperialists,Despite imperialists and despite theapartheid dhimmitude and slaughters of Muslims in the Muslim world we went home and there we shall stay.

We are not imperialist. We are Jews.We are Hebrew people of Israel.You want to pretend otherwise I have news for you-here we stay and never again will people like you revise our history, slaughter us, and pretend we came from cabbage leaves.

[jbg]

Wyly I used to think you were simply ignorant of history now I see it is actually deliberate and selective and so in my opinion I found your repeated attempts to revise history to white-wash those portions of it not advantageous to your political agenda on this forum to be insincere.

Great series of posts but you called me a racist when I posted similar materials.

[WIP]

Your analogy again shows a remarkable ignorance of not just Jewish history but international law.

I am finding myself caring less and less about Jewish history now that my government genuflects to every bullshit statement coming out of the Israeli Prime Minister. It's one thing for the U.S. to be kowtowing to Israel's interests in the Middle East; but why the hell do we have to be doing it too now?

Your analogy is absolutely illogical. The West Bank was neverpart of any nation,

So, the people who happen to be living there have no rights, is that it?

.

The provinces in Yugoslavia were, The fact you can not see the difference is typical of you and so many others who come on this forum and fail to understand the legal difference between occupying land already part of a sovereign nation and land never part of any sovereign nation.

Well, first of all, I didn't grab for Yugoslavia out of any particular interest or ethnic heritage; but I do know enough about their situation to know that Yugoslavia was not a nation of provinces, but a federation of six republics and two provinces....which was why it was always at risk of breaking apart without a dictator in control. In theory, those republics had intrinsic rights of nationhood on their own, just like the republics of the U.S.S.R.. And Kosovo, was a province of Serbia...not a republic. It was granted autonomous status from the fact that like a similar autonomous province in the northern part of Serbia, it was mostly populated with an ethnic minority - Albanians - while Serbs on made up about 15% of the total population. But, according to international law, Kosovo was within the borders of Serbia. When ethnic tensions developed into a civil war, after the fall of Yugoslavia, there were claims by the Russians and Serbs that the U.S. and the E.U. were supporting the uprising, and intended to carve Kosovo away from Serbia, just as they were quick to recognize Croatia's independence in that war previously.

Now, where I find an intriguing similarity between Kosovo and Palestine, is that the land in Kosovo is scattered with many significant Serbian historical sites including historic churches that were abandoned as Albanians moved into the area during the early part of the 20th century. With the rise of Serbian nationalism after the breakup of Yugoslavia, there was a clamoring for retaking the Serbian "holy sites" from Albanian interlopers. So, the situation that led to ethnic cleansing and Clinton's air war on Serbia, was precipitated by one group claiming historic rights to territory that was being occupied by outsiders who had moved in during more recent generations....sound familiar yet?

My concerns are not with trying to figure out who's right and who's wrong, it's what is the difference between the Serbian claims of historic rights to their national territory - especially holy sites, or a Jew coming to Israel from Europe or America and claiming the right to the land and pushing Arabs out because he says his ancestors lived there 2000 years ago? If someone wants to return to a place where someone is already living there now, who gets the land?