Hamas is neither moral, ethical nor civilised.

[wyly]

Pennsylvania and Utah.

they live there they aren't exclusive states for any religious group...and certainly not countries... Edited November 24, 2012 by wyly

[Canuckistani]

Your reference to ethnic cleansing is neither apropriate nor acceptable, it's pure unadulterated trolling and I could report you.

Funny, you didn't say that to the guy on here who shares your pov and brought up the whole ethnic cleansing thing re the settlements ie shutting down the settlements is ethnic cleansing according to him. Where were you then?

[cybercoma]

they live there they aren't exclusive states for any religious group...and certainly not countries...

I was kidding.

[Canuckistani]

Aren't Arabs helping in the building the Israeli settlements? I think Arabs are building malls and hotels with Israels help.

What are you trying to say here? The Palestinians are happy their land is being taken from them? Man the contortions people get up to on this topic. Pretzel logic.

Israel can't win this by following their Lebensraum doctrine. They'll never have peace that way. And they'd be doing to the Palestinians exactly what they accuse the Palestinians of wanting to do to them. A two state solution is the only one that has a chance of working. You don't show willingness to follow that solution if you keep stealing more and more land from your enemy. The US should stop all support for Israel until all settlements are closed. Once that happens, the West should fully support Isreal (behind 67 borders). If attacked under those circumstances, it should be considered an attack on her allies, including the US and Canada. Until then, let them play their expansionist games on their own dime and risk.

[wyly]

I was kidding.

sorry... my sarcasm detector was turned off

[jbg]

they live there they aren't exclusive states for any religious group...and certainly not countries...

I think Muslims and Christians do far better in Israel than they do in most "Muslim" lands.

[jbg]

What are you trying to say here? The Palestinians are happy their land is being taken from them? Man the contortions people get up to on this topic. Pretzel logic.

How many times, prior to 1967, did various Arab leaders say that there was no difference between and among the various Arab populations? It seems that the story shifts as tactics shift.

Israel can't win this by following their Lebensraum doctrine. They'll never have peace that way. And they'd be doing to the Palestinians exactly what they accuse the Palestinians of wanting to do to them. A two state solution is the only one that has a chance of working. You don't show willingness to follow that solution if you keep stealing more and more land from your enemy. The US should stop all support for Israel until all settlements are closed. Once that happens, the West should fully support Isreal (behind 67 borders). If attacked under those circumstances, it should be considered an attack on her allies, including the US and Canada. Until then, let them play their expansionist games on their own dime and risk.

Then I guess we won't ever have peace. Do you call what we had before 1948 peace?

Example of news coverage from the day:

Edited November 24, 2012 by jbg

[cybercoma]

Unbelievable. You're comparing the Palestinian attacks on Israel to the pogroms. Do you know how absurd that is?

Edited November 25, 2012 by cybercoma

[Guest]

That's not what he's doing at all. He's simply pointing out that the NYTimes is a biased left wing rag.

I've never read it, but I've heard that.

[jbg]

Unbelievable. You're comparing the Palestinian attacks on Israel to the pogroms. Do you know how absurd that is?

That's not what he's doing at all. He's simply pointing out that the NYTimes is a biased left wing rag.

I've never read it, but I've heard that.

None of the above.

I am pointing out that prior to Israel's formation the Jews had no peace. We're damned if we do damned if we don't.

[Canuckistani]

None of the above.

I am pointing out that prior to Israel's formation the Jews had no peace. We're damned if we do damned if we don't.

Don't you live in Canada? You have no peace?

Israel doesn't have peace now. Certainly won't as long as it pursues its lebensraum policies. Israelis are certainly damned if they do there. Hard to play the victim when you're the one taking more and more territory. But Jews have peace in many parts of the world.

[jbg]

Don't you live in Canada? You have no peace?

No, I don't live in Canada. Never have. Never will. As far as having peace, I do. I was referring to the situation in countries other than the U.S. The U.S. is in many ways a specialized situation. I am not aware of Canada having more than a minor number of Jews, and maybe a synagogue or two.

Israel doesn't have peace now. Certainly won't as long as it pursues its lebensraum policies. Israelis are certainly damned if they do there. Hard to play the victim when you're the one taking more and more territory. But Jews have peace in many parts of the world.

My point is that prior to 1948 the Jews had no peace in most of the countries they inhabited. The English-speaking countries were about the only exceptions. Edited November 25, 2012 by jbg

[Guest American Woman]

No, I don't live in Canada. Never have. Never will. As far as having peace, I do. I was referring to the situation in countries other than the U.S. The U.S. is in many ways a specialized situation. I am not aware of Canada having more than a minor number of Jews, and maybe a synagogue or two.

Canada has a smaller population of Jews than the U.S. does, 1% of their population vs. 2.2% of the U.S. population, but it does have the fourth largest population of Jews, exceeded only by Israel, the U.S., and France. Canada is one of Israel's strongest supporters.

[Guest Peeves]

Flash Update[quote

Israel captured East Jerusalem and the West Bank during the Six Day War in 1967.

Israel has annexed all of Jerusalem and considers the city its capital. It has occupied the West Bank and allowed Jewish settlements to take root there.

But Palestinians supporting the two-state solution maintain the eastern part of Jerusalem should serve as the future capital of a Palestinian state and regard the West Bank as the future territory of an independent state.

]

Of course Israel is unjustified in building on disputed territory except the Israelis have always said that any settlements on the West Bank will be vacated on the resolution of peace guarantees as I understand the subject.

I would point out that Israel vacated Lebanon and thousands of Israeli settlers were removed. Israel vacated the Sinai and any claims with a peace treaty with Egypt. Egypt guaranteed no attacks from the Sinai.

Israel vacated Lebanon only to have Hezbollah fire missiles at Israel.and attack taking hostages.

Israel vacated Gaza removing several hundred thousand Israeli settlers and their manufacturing/developed properties to the Gazans. The Arabs simply destroyed the properties.

In return Hamas murdered the Fatah members and became the terrorist government then fired 6,000 missiles at Israel civilians. Israel finally after 2 years of attacks by rockets smuggled in finally set up a blockade/embargo.

Why the *&^(%$ would any country give up land captured in war without some guarantee of security? Those expecting THAT are simply nut cases.

The settlements would be left and settlers would be removed as in Gaza, if there was a guaranteed peace accord.Till then, it's disputed territory.

More than 20 years later, in 2000, Israeli armed forces completely vacated the buffer zone in southern Lebanon, occupied in 1982.

Finally in 2005, the Israelis left the Palestinian Gaza Strip. The Jewish settlements on this territory were also abandoned – without Israel receiving a peace agreement with Hamas in return.

Jerusalem would also be willing to restore the occupied Golan Heights to Syria. In return, Damascus would only have to sign a peace agreement with Israel and establish regular diplomatic and economic relations with the Jewish state.

Moreover, Netanyahu pledged shortly after his inauguration as prime minister two years ago in an international press conference at Bar-Ilan University that Israel would accept a Palestinian state at its side – and establish peaceful relations with it.

Edited November 25, 2012 by Peeves

[Guest Peeves]

Canada has a smaller population of Jews than the U.S. does, 1% of their population vs. 2.2% of the U.S. population, but it does have the fourth largest population of Jews, exceeded only by Israel, the U.S., and France. Canada is one of Israel's strongest supporters.

Quebec is the main location, but with the anti-ethnic attitude of the Québécois, they are gradually leaving. More and more only francophones have full rights.

Several large box stores are at odds now in the courts regarding the imposition of language and signage.

[GostHacked]

If I were a Jew, I would move to Israel from Canada just so I can risk getting blown up by a Hamas rocket. Yeah that sounds like some good logic. Maybe I will convert to Judaism.

[Guest Peeves]

Don't you live in Canada? You have no peace?

Israel doesn't have peace now. Certainly won't as long as it pursues its lebensraum policies. Israelis are certainly damned if they do there. Hard to play the victim when you're the one taking more and more territory. But Jews have peace in many parts of the world.

Don't you live in Canada? You have no peace?

Israel doesn't have peace now. Certainly won't as long as it pursues its lebensraum policies. Israelis are certainly damned if they do there. Hard to play the victim when you're the one taking more and more territory. But Jews have peace in many parts of the world.

Are you suggesting that Israel has no right to return fire? No right to defend its citizens? No right to dispute the lands it was attacked from? No right to bargain with outspoken enemies?

And BTW, you use of the term (of Nazi Germany) lebensraum or literally "living space" was one of the major genocidal political goals of Adolf Hitler, ) defines, you, your bias and intended obfuscation. Israel is a sliver of land in a sea of enemies and obviously could not expand into Arab territory.

[jbg]

And BTW, you use of the term (of Nazi Germany) lebensraum or literally "living space" was one of the major genocidal political goals of Adolf Hitler, ) defines, you, your bias and intended obfuscation. Israel is a sliver of land in a sea of enemies and obviously could not expand into Arab territory.

For many of these people any Jewish-held land is too much.

[Guest Peeves]

If I were a Jew, I would move to Israel from Canada just so I can risk getting blown up by a Hamas rocket. Yeah that sounds like some good logic. Maybe I will convert to Judaism.

How true, but it's more precise to describe the rocket as Iranian. The West bank might be the safest place to settle

[Guest Peeves]

dp

Edited November 25, 2012 by Peeves

[wyly]

No, I don't live in Canada. Never have. Never will. As far as having peace, I do. I was referring to the situation in countries other than the U.S. The U.S. is in many ways a specialized situation. I am not aware of Canada having more than a minor number of Jews, and maybe a synagogue or two.

My point is that prior to 1948 the Jews had no peace in most of the countries they inhabited. The English-speaking countries were about the only exceptions.

that's historical bs...it was muslim countries that sheltered jews from european persecution until zionism raised it's ugly presence Jews could be found in large numbers throughout muslim countries...it was zionism and ethnic cleansing of palestinians that triggered widespread muslim hostility towards jews...and english speaking countries weren't any friendlier than others...

[wyly]

Flash Update

Of course Israel is unjustified in building on disputed territory except the Israelis have always said that any settlements on the West Bank will be vacated on the resolution of peace guarantees as I understand the subject.

nice display of ignorance... previous negotiations did not include return the settlements nor occupied Jerusalem that would leave the west bank so carved up by jewish only roads it would not be a viable state ...if you're going to debate the topic at least have a minimum of information...

[DogOnPorch]

that's historical bs...it was muslim countries that sheltered jews from european persecution until zionism raised it's ugly presence Jews could be found in large numbers throughout muslim countries...it was zionism and ethnic cleansing of palestinians that triggered widespread muslim hostility towards jews...and english speaking countries weren't any friendlier than others...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1066_Granada_massacre

Jews in Muslim lands were Dhimmi and paid the Jizya. When they weren't dying, that is.

[WIP]

http://en.wikipedia....ranada_massacre

Jews in Muslim lands were Dhimmi and paid the Jizya. When they weren't dying, that is.

And your selective use of history ignores the fact that there were pogroms and persecutions of Jews in Christendom also, depending on the mood of the times.

Persecutions in the Middle Ages

Main article: Jews in the Middle Ages

From the 9th century CE, the medieval Islamic world classified Jews (and Christians) as dhimmi, and allowed them to practice their religion more freely than they could do in medieval Christian Europe. Under Islamic rule, there was a Golden age of Jewish culture in Spain that lasted until at least the 11th century,^[83] when several Muslim pogroms against Jews took place in the Iberian Peninsula; those that occurred in Córdoba in 1011 and in Granada in 1066.^[84][85][86] Several decrees ordering the destruction of synagogues were also enacted in Egypt, Syria, Iraq and Yemen from the 11th century. Jews were also forced to convert to Islam or face death in some parts of Yemen, Morocco and Baghdad several times between the 12th and 18th centuries.^[87] The Almohads, who had taken control of the Almoravids' Maghribi and Andalusian territories by 1147,^[88] were far more fundamentalist in outlook, and they treated the dhimmis harshly. Faced with the choice of either death or conversion, many Jews and Christians emigrated.^[89][90][91] Some, such as the family of Maimonides, fled east to more tolerant Muslim lands,^[89] while some others went northward to settle in the growing Christian kingdoms.^[92]

During the Middle Ages in Europe there was persecution against Jews in many places, with blood libels, expulsions, forced conversions and massacres. A main justification of prejudice against Jews in Europe was religious. The persecution hit its first peak during the Crusades. In the First Crusade (1096) flourishing communities on the Rhine and the Danube were destroyed. In the Second Crusade (1147) the Jews in Germany were subject to several massacres. The Jews were also subjected to attacks by the Shepherds' Crusades of 1251 and 1320. The Crusades were followed by expulsions, including, in 1290, the banishing of all English Jews; in 1396, the expulsion of 100,000 Jews in France; and in 1421, the expulsion of thousands from Austria. Many of the expelled Jews fled to Poland.^[93]

First Crusade

Main article: Persecution of Jews in the First Crusade

Defending in the Holy Land

The Jews almost single-handedly defended Haifa against the crusaders, holding out in the besieged town for a whole month (June–July 1099) in fierce battles. At this time, a full thousand years after the fall of the Jewish state, there were Jewish communities all over the country. Fifty of them are known and include Jerusalem, Tiberias, Ramleh, Ashkelon, Caesarea, and Gaza.^[2][3]

Massacre of Jerusalem

Jews fought side-by-side with Muslim soldiers to defend Jerusalem against the Crusaders.^[4] Saint Louis University Professor Thomas Madden, author of A Concise History of the Crusades, claims the "Jewish Defenders" of the city knew the rules of warfare and retreated to their synagogue to "prepare for death" since the Crusaders had breached the outer walls.^[5] According to the Muslim chronicle of Ibn al-Qalanisi, "The Jews assembled in their synagogue, and the Franks burned it over their heads."^[6]

[DogOnPorch]

I never denied there were pogroms in Christendom...lol. Nice try, though. I'm merely countering your Jews and Muslims were pals before Israel BS.