heroic israeli military attacks and seizes another humanitarian boat

[Guest Peeves]

All in favor of Bud leaving to sail on the next blockade ship say .....Aye.

Not me.I want him where I can watch and monitor him.

It's good to have this shit in the open.

Agree?

[Guest Peeves]

you cannot rely on ignorance and misinformation. it is no longer accepted. this is not self preservation:

likud platform

Self-Rule

The Government of Israel flatly rejects the establishment of a Palestinian Arab state west of the Jordan river.

The Palestinians can run their lives freely in the framework of self-rule, but not as an independent and sovereign state. Thus, for example, in matters of foreign affairs, security, immigration and ecology, their activity shall be limited in accordance with imperatives of Israel's existence, security and national needs.

Makes sense to me given the alternative.

BTW given the manifest you posted, I guess they concluded Gaza doesn't need humanitarian aid, as some of us have said. They need balls and toys.

The toy no doubt so the kids will stop playing with guns and rocks.

[kraychik]

Why are Iranian crates always identified by English writing on the cases?

Seriously? I guess you're another one of those gifted children that doesn't realise that English is a universal language, and that most importantly, Iranians and "Palestinians" don't share the same language.

[DogOnPorch]

Seriously? I guess you're another one of those gifted children that doesn't realise that English is a universal language, and that most importantly, Iranians and "Palestinians" don't share the same language.

Iraq and Afghanistan are both rife with US weapon theft, as well.

[kraychik]

Iraq and Afghanistan are both rife with US weapon theft, as well.

From supplies they acquired in the 70s/80s?

[DogOnPorch]

From supplies they acquired in the 70s/80s?

There were 2006 lot stamps on the box I noted.

[kraychik]

There were 2006 lot stamps on the box I noted.

Oh, from the recent arming/training of local forces? How predictable. And then these new locals turn their guns on American soldiers in those "green on blue" attacks.

[DogOnPorch]

Oh, from the recent arming/training of local forces? How predictable. And then these new locals turn their guns on American soldiers in those "green on blue" attacks.

The same happened with ARVN.

[kraychik]

The same happened with ARVN.

...'round and 'round we go.

[DogOnPorch]

...'round and 'round we go.

Ohhh...yeah. Ask Harry Flashman.

When 'arf of your bullets fly wide in the ditch,

Don't call your Martini a cross-eyed old bitch;

She's human as you are -- you treat her as sich,

An' she'll fight for the young British soldier.

Fight, fight, fight for the soldier...

---Kipling

Edited October 22, 2012 by DogOnPorch

[bud]

After the Mavi Marmara raid, a United Nations panel found that Israel’s naval blockade was “legitimate self-defense and that Israel’s decision to intercept the flotilla was indeed legal under international law.

”

http://www.nytimes.c...ng-to-gaza.html

so where does it say that the UN has declared the blockade to be legal, as you put it?

The now completed UN Inquiry on last year’s Gaza flotilla incident aboard the Mavi Marmara found that Israel’s blockade of Hamas-ruled Gaza

is legal

http://fullcomment.n...iling-flotilla/

lots of people have opinions, including michael ross: Michael Ross is a former 13-year veteran of the Israel Secret Intelligence Service

A long-awaited United Nations review of

Israel

’s 2010 raid on a Turkish-based flotilla in which nine passengers were killed has found that Israel’s naval blockade of

Gaza

is both legal and appropriate.

http://www.nytimes.c...wanted=all&_r=0

A United Nations panel has found that Israel's naval blockade of Gaza is legal.

http://www.npr.org/b...-raid-excessive

so this "report" by a UN panel says that the "naval" blockade is legal. where does it say that the UN has declared the blockade of gaza to be legal?

no matter, there is no declaration by the UN that the blockade is legal. a report is not a declaration.

are you saying that the UN has declared israel's war on gaza to be war crimes, considering a UN panel, called the goldstone report concluded that israel committed war crimes and possible crimes against humanity?

for those who care what the UN report, which looked at the whole blockade of gaza, has to say:

"Israeli acts that deprive Palestinians in the Gaza Strip of their means of subsistence, employment, housing and water, that deny their freedom of movement and their right to leave and enter their own country, that limit their rights to access a court of law and an effective remedy, could lead a competent court to find that the crime of persecution, a crime against humanity, has been committed." The Goldstone report recommended that the matter be referred to the International Criminal Court if the situation has not improved in six months."

link

Edited October 23, 2012 by bud

[Guest American Woman]

Wow. The response of a desperate man.

Your attempt to pretend otherwise doesn't change a thing; the UN has declared that the blockade is legal.

[DogOnPorch]

Wow. The response of a desperate man.

Your attempt to pretend otherwise doesn't change a thing; the UN has declared that the blockade is legal.

Illegal...legal...that's not generally part of the definition of blockade. Blockades have only two real states: working or not working. This is all Newspeak. Nobody called it the illegal siege of Khe Shan...for example. These are terms for use on Israel where, if certain folks were asked, the very existence of Israel is illegal.

[Guest American Woman]

Illegal...legal...that's not generally part of the definition of blockade. Blockades have only two real states: working or not working. This is all Newspeak. Nobody called it the illegal siege of Khe Shan...for example. These are terms for use on Israel where, if certain folks were asked, the very existence of Israel is illegal.

Oh, I realize that these terms are for use on Israel, which is why I originally said that I was pointing out the U.N.'s position "for those who like to reference the U.N." regarding Israel. I personally don't care how the U.N. views it - but those who are always referencing the U.N. do, I'm sure; I'm sure they respect it at all times.

[DogOnPorch]

Oh, I realize that these terms are for use on Israel, which is why I originally said that I was pointing out the U.N.'s position "for those who like to reference the U.N." regarding Israel. I personally don't care how the U.N. views it - but those who are always referencing the U.N. do, I'm sure; I'm sure they respect it at all times.

Which is why if we look at the very REAL results of the Viet-nam War and compare them to the Arab-Israeli conflict we are talking literal silliness. This should have been wrapped-up decades ago rather than letting this farce go on as long as it has. You don't get do-overs in wars you start. Heck, you don't get do-overs in wars you didn't start.

[bud]

double post.

Edited October 23, 2012 by bud

[Guest Peeves]

let's start with two things you need to learn in regards to this issue, so you'd have a better understanding of what you're trying to debate here:

first, the palmer report said the naval blockade is legal. it did not make a ruling on the entire gaza blockade. it's very important that you understand that.

second, the UN has not declared that the naval blockade is legal, even though that was the finding of the palmer report. this is just like how the UN has not declared that israel's blockade of gaza is illegal and is a war crime, even though that is what the goldstone report, and many human rights organizations have concluded.

if you want to know more about UN declarations, go here.

by the way, while we're talking about the palmer report, let's look at a tiny mention of something, that made it to the politically charged report:

“Forensic evidence showing that most of the deceased were shot multiple times, including in the back, or at close range has not been adequately accounted for in the material presented by Israel.”

let's also talk about criticism of the report's conclusion in regards to the naval blockade of gaza. here is one from Gisha - Legal Center for Freedom of Movement. gisha is chaired by kenneth mann, a professor at tel aviv university faculty of law. gisha's board members include dan rabinowitz, yishai blank and alaa masarwa, all also professors at tel aviv university faculty of law. here is what they say about the legality of the maritime blockade:

“By preventing the passage of civilians and goods of a civilian nature to and from the Gaza Strip, Israel has paralyzed the economy of the area and caused substantial damage to key aspects of civilian life. In so doing, it has violated its obligations under international law, rendering its policy of closure – including the maritime closure – unlawful.”

a lot can be learned from one post. here is what another UN panel has said about the report and the blockade:

Mr. Richard Falk, Special rapporteur on the situation of human rights in the occupied Palestinian territory, stressed that “The Palmer report was aimed at political reconciliation between Israel and Turkey. It is unfortunate that in the report politics should trump the law.” Mr. Falk continued, “the most questionable move of the Palmer Panel was to separate the naval blockade from the overall closure of Gaza to a normal supply of humanitarian supplies, including supplies needed for medical operations and sanitation. The flotilla incident was about the effort to circumvent this aspect of Israeli policies, and the organizers posed no objection to inspection carried out to prevent weapons from entering Gaza.”

The blockade of Gaza continues to violate international law, the experts concluded, recalling that this conclusion had been reached by the international fact-finding mission appointed by the Human Rights Council to inquire into the 31 May 2010 flotilla incident in its report of September 2010. “It is unacceptable that the human rights of the people of Gaza are disregarded because of the positions adopted by political leaders”, the experts said. “It is not the Hamas Government that is being punished, but ordinary Gazans.”

Ok so you and other anti-Israel master baiters think Israel stopping ships going to an avowed enemy just to stop any military supplies isillegal.

Russia was blockaded from Cuba. Who's side would you have been on, Americas or Russia.

BTW no Gazans are inconvenienced by Israel stopping a ship carrying non military cargo.

To imply they are is simply untrue.

[bud]

Ok so you and other anti-Israel master baiters think Israel stopping ships going to an avowed enemy just to stop any military supplies isillegal.

Russia was blockaded from Cuba. Who's side would you have been on, Americas or Russia.

BTW no Gazans are inconvenienced by Israel stopping a ship carrying non military cargo.

To imply they are is simply untrue.

i can't respond to you when you're unable to stay focused and respond to actual comments made.

[bud]

Wow. The response of a desperate man.

Your attempt to pretend otherwise doesn't change a thing; the UN has declared that the blockade is legal.

let's start with two things you need to learn in regards to this issue, so you'd have a better understanding of what you're trying to debate here:

first, the palmer report said the naval blockade is legal. it did not make a ruling on the entire gaza blockade. it's very important that you understand that.

second, the UN has not declared that the naval blockade is legal, even though that was the finding of the palmer report. this is just like how the UN has not declared that israel's blockade of gaza is illegal and is a war crime, even though that is what the goldstone report, and many human rights organizations have concluded.

if you want to know more about UN declarations, go here.

by the way, while we're talking about the palmer report, let's look at a tiny mention of something, that made it to the politically charged report:

“Forensic evidence showing that most of the deceased were shot multiple times, including in the back, or at close range has not been adequately accounted for in the material presented by Israel.”

let's also talk about criticism of the report's conclusion in regards to the naval blockade of gaza. here is one from Gisha - Legal Center for Freedom of Movement. gisha is chaired by kenneth mann, a professor at tel aviv university faculty of law. gisha's board members include dan rabinowitz, yishai blank and alaa masarwa, all also professors at tel aviv university faculty of law. here is what they say about the legality of the maritime blockade:

“By preventing the passage of civilians and goods of a civilian nature to and from the Gaza Strip, Israel has paralyzed the economy of the area and caused substantial damage to key aspects of civilian life. In so doing, it has violated its obligations under international law, rendering its policy of closure – including the maritime closure – unlawful.”

a lot can be learned from one post. here is what another UN panel has said about the report and the blockade:

Mr. Richard Falk, Special rapporteur on the situation of human rights in the occupied Palestinian territory, stressed that “The Palmer report was aimed at political reconciliation between Israel and Turkey. It is unfortunate that in the report politics should trump the law.” Mr. Falk continued, “the most questionable move of the Palmer Panel was to separate the naval blockade from the overall closure of Gaza to a normal supply of humanitarian supplies, including supplies needed for medical operations and sanitation. The flotilla incident was about the effort to circumvent this aspect of Israeli policies, and the organizers posed no objection to inspection carried out to prevent weapons from entering Gaza.”

The blockade of Gaza continues to violate international law, the experts concluded, recalling that this conclusion had been reached by the international fact-finding mission appointed by the Human Rights Council to inquire into the 31 May 2010 flotilla incident in its report of September 2010. “It is unacceptable that the human rights of the people of Gaza are disregarded because of the positions adopted by political leaders”, the experts said. “It is not the Hamas Government that is being punished, but ordinary Gazans.”

[WIP]

I don't normally pay attention to the Middle East, since there are so many issues going on closer to home, but since the Israelis seized the latest attempt to get aid through the Blockade to the people of Gaza, I want to go back to the issue that I first learned about when they seized the flotilla two years ago -- that being that Israeli Government is deliberately trying to starve the population of Gaza...or as one Israeli official put it -- putting Gazans on a diet!

Israeli Government Consciously Planned to Keep Palestinians "on a Diet", Controlling Their Food Supply, Damning Document Reveals

Israeli military forced to reveal that Israel calculated the amount of calories Palestinians would need to avoid malnutrition.

The document, produced by the Israeli army, appears to be a calculation of how to make sure, despite the Israeli blockade, that Palestinians got an average of 2279 calories a day, the basic need. But by planning on limiting the calories in that way, the Israeli military was actually plotting to keep Palestinians in Gaza (half of them children) permanently on the brink of malnutrition, what health professionals call “food insecurity”. And, it was foreseeable that sometimes they would slip into malnutrition, since not as many trucks were always let in every day as the Israeli army recommended (106 were recommended, but it was often less in the period 2007-2010)...............................................................

The food blockade had real effects.

About ten percent of Palestinian children in Gaza under 5 have had their growth stunted by malnutrition.

A recent report [pdf] by Save the Children and Medical Aid for Palestinians

found that, in addition, anemia is widespread, affecting over two-thirds of infants, 58.6 percent of schoolchildren, and over a third of pregnant mothers.

I mean, don’t those figures make you want to do something for those mothers and children? Wouldn’t they melt anyone’s heart?

Although, under international pressure, the Israeli government eased its blockade slightly in 2010, and foodstuffs are no longer interdicted, it still limits imports into Gaza, and its wide-ranging ban on exports has thrown Palestinians into unemployment at Depression levels, imperiling their ability to afford food even when it is available.

A

UN Report out last month predicts that if Israel does not change its policies toward Gaza, the strip will be uninhabitable by 2020

, when the population will likely be 2.1 million (think Houston). The deterioration of the water, and the sharp downward mobility of the Palestinians, are only some of the problems the territory will face.

Regarding that last point about Gaza becoming uninhabitable in about 7 or 8 years. This is a big international story that has only been reported in the West on sites dealing with environmental issues. What's happening is that a few deep wells that provide Gaza's water supply, are coming from a deep fossil aquifer that does not recharge and only has a few years left at present rates of pumping. And if Gaza's population continues to increase as that UN report predicts, there is little chance of extending the life of that aquifer.

So, what happens in 2020? For whatever reasons or excuses are offered up, Israel has turned Gaza into a giant concentration camp over the last 10 years. There are many examples in history of the conquered becoming conquerers and persecuting others when they have the opportunity. What does that slogan: NEVER AGAIN mean besides we will never allow Jews to be subject to genocide. Do modern day Israelis and their supporters feel that it's time for a Palestinian genocide? I've been wondering if this time would come ever since the rise of the Likud Party back in the 70's, and Israel embarked on a course of permanent occupation. Israel cannot be....or even pretend to be a modern, western democracy when it has to disenfranchise over half of its population. If Arab populations continue to grow faster than Israel can bring new Jews in from the Aliyah, will it be time for ethnic cleansing or worse to keep Israel a Jewish state?

Edited October 23, 2012 by WIP

[Guest American Woman]

I don't normally pay attention to the Middle East, since there are so many issues going on closer to home, but since the Israelis seized the latest attempt to get aid through the Blockade to the people of Gaza, I want to go back to the issue that I first learned about when they seized the flotilla two years ago -- that being that Israeli Government is deliberately trying to starve the population of Gaza...or as one Israeli official put it -- putting Gazans on a diet!

Israeli Government Consciously Planned to Keep Palestinians "on a Diet", Controlling Their Food Supply, Damning Document Reveals

Israeli military forced to reveal that Israel calculated the amount of calories Palestinians would need to avoid malnutrition. [...]

That's already been addressed: http://www.mapleleafweb.com/forums//index.php?showtopic=21624&st=195#entry843845

[bud]

since you have a bad habit of avoiding to respond to facts, here it is again:

Wow. The response of a desperate man.

Your attempt to pretend otherwise doesn't change a thing; the UN has declared that the blockade is legal.

let's start with two things you need to learn in regards to this issue, so you'd have a better understanding of what you're trying to debate here:

first, the palmer report said the naval blockade is legal. it did not make a ruling on the entire gaza blockade. it's very important that you understand that.

second, the UN has not declared that the naval blockade is legal, even though that was the finding of the palmer report. this is just like how the UN has not declared that israel's blockade of gaza is illegal and is a war crime, even though that is what the goldstone report, and many human rights organizations have concluded.

if you want to know more about UN declarations, go here.

by the way, while we're talking about the palmer report, let's look at a tiny mention of something, that made it to the politically charged report:

“Forensic evidence showing that most of the deceased were shot multiple times, including in the back, or at close range has not been adequately accounted for in the material presented by Israel.”

let's also talk about criticism of the report's conclusion in regards to the naval blockade of gaza. here is one from Gisha - Legal Center for Freedom of Movement. gisha is chaired by kenneth mann, a professor at tel aviv university faculty of law. gisha's board members include dan rabinowitz, yishai blank and alaa masarwa, all also professors at tel aviv university faculty of law. here is what they say about the legality of the maritime blockade:

“By preventing the passage of civilians and goods of a civilian nature to and from the Gaza Strip, Israel has paralyzed the economy of the area and caused substantial damage to key aspects of civilian life. In so doing, it has violated its obligations under international law, rendering its policy of closure – including the maritime closure – unlawful.”

a lot can be learned from one post. here is what another UN panel has said about the report and the blockade:

Mr. Richard Falk, Special rapporteur on the situation of human rights in the occupied Palestinian territory, stressed that “The Palmer report was aimed at political reconciliation between Israel and Turkey. It is unfortunate that in the report politics should trump the law.” Mr. Falk continued, “the most questionable move of the Palmer Panel was to separate the naval blockade from the overall closure of Gaza to a normal supply of humanitarian supplies, including supplies needed for medical operations and sanitation. The flotilla incident was about the effort to circumvent this aspect of Israeli policies, and the organizers posed no objection to inspection carried out to prevent weapons from entering Gaza.”

The blockade of Gaza continues to violate international law, the experts concluded, recalling that this conclusion had been reached by the international fact-finding mission appointed by the Human Rights Council to inquire into the 31 May 2010 flotilla incident in its report of September 2010. “It is unacceptable that the human rights of the people of Gaza are disregarded because of the positions adopted by political leaders”, the experts said. “It is not the Hamas Government that is being punished, but ordinary Gazans.”

[kraychik]

The assertions that those in Gazan are being shorted on calories and malnourished, let alone starved as a function of the blockade, is either a vicious lie from a malicious propagandist trying to smear Israel and Jews, or stupidity from an ignorant leftist who needs something to be outraged about on the internet. Either way, it's not serious conversation.

Edited October 23, 2012 by kraychik

[kraychik]

The UN doesn't determine legality of Israel's blockade. So it is irrelevant what positions they've taken on this via statements, resolutions, press releases, or anything else. They are not an arbiter of legality in any sense, whatsoever.

[WIP]

That's already been addressed: http://www.mapleleaf...195#entry843845

Yes, if I wanted to read through 50 different threads on the same issue I guess I would have noticed that! But, that official propaganda doesn't address the on-the-ground analysis from international relief groups like Save The Children that were on the Juan Cole story that I posted. If 10% of Gaza children show signs of malnutrition and over two thirds of infants and one third of pregnant women are anemic, what should that tell you about how flimsy the Israeli Government's claims are?