WWWTT Posted October 8, 2012 Report Posted October 8, 2012 Does everyone completely misunderstand the point as much as TimG and Shady or are they special? Yep. TimG and Shady are even disagreeing with Mark Carney and Jim Flaherty! WWWTT Quote Maple Leaf Web is now worth $720.00! Down over $1,500 in less than one year! Total fail of the moderation on this site! That reminds me, never ask Greg to be a business partner! NEVER!
dre Posted October 8, 2012 Report Posted October 8, 2012 (edited) Of COURSE the economy was going to stall... Monetary easing does not create economic growth it simply moves consumption around. And it worked! Easy credit and low interest rates stimulated the economy with debt financed consumption, and kept our realestate bubble inflated. But it also depleted savings to the lowest levels in modern history and more and more people are going to stop borrowing and start saving again, which means consumer spending will dry up, which in turn means a recession (not just a stalled recovery). The worst of it wont hit us until 2013 or 2014. Government policy didnt "fix" any problems or avoid any recession it just kicked the can down the road a bit and made the problem we are eventually going to have to fix worse. Edited October 8, 2012 by dre Quote I question things because I am human. And call no one my father who's no closer than a stranger
CPCFTW Posted October 8, 2012 Report Posted October 8, 2012 The conclusion that conservative economics are failing us because of lower GDP growth rates is laughable. GDP growth isn't a holy grail. Obviously GDP growth will slow when the government doesn't promise to print/borrow unlimited money to pay for socialized everything. That is the mandate they were given when elected. Complaining that Canada's government is mismanaging the economy because of lower growth rates relative to its peers is like complaining that Apple is mismanaged because RIMM outperformed it over the past month. The other countries are simply recouping the lost growth due to mismanagement. That isn't a knock on the conservatives. When the global economy recovers, Canadian companies will have hoards of cash to invest, and we'll have balanced budgets or surpluses to further stimulate a growth cycle unlike any modern Canadian growth period in history. We just need to stay the course and keep letting the CPC do what they do best. We've been growing through a global recession and government spending cuts... Things are looking bright in Canada. Quote
punked Posted October 8, 2012 Report Posted October 8, 2012 Of COURSE the economy was going to stall... Monetary easing does not create economic growth it simply moves consumption around. And it worked! Easy credit and low interest rates stimulated the economy with debt financed consumption, and kept our realestate bubble inflated. But it also depleted savings to the lowest levels in modern history and more and more people are going to stop borrowing and start saving again, which means consumer spending will dry up, which in turn means a recession (not just a stalled recovery). The worst of it wont hit us until 2013 or 2014. Government policy didnt "fix" any problems or avoid any recession it just kicked the can down the road a bit and made the problem we are eventually going to have to fix worse. That is what your Ron Paul people said in about 2011 and 2012. I get it you think the world is ending but how many times are you going to push your predications down the road until you come the conclusion the rest of us have? You are dead wrong. Quote
punked Posted October 8, 2012 Report Posted October 8, 2012 When the global economy recovers, Canadian companies will have hoards of cash to invest, and we'll have balanced budgets or surpluses to further stimulate a growth cycle unlike any modern Canadian growth period in history. We just need to stay the course and keep letting the CPC do what they do best. We've been growing through a global recession and government spending cuts... Things are looking bright in Canada. Nothing is ever going to recover if no one ever spends the money. That is what this whole stimulus argument was about. You are right when the Recovery happens the money will roll in. The question then becomes why do we suffer needlessly through 10 years of no growth, high youth unemployment, private and public sector falling behind in competitiveness, when we could have those 10 years back now by opening the spigot for a few years to spending in either the public or private sector? Seriously we are going to have a lost decade because we feel we need collective punishment for no reason. Quote
cybercoma Posted October 8, 2012 Author Report Posted October 8, 2012 (edited) Another lost generation thanks to conservative politics and myopic austerity measures. Edited October 8, 2012 by cybercoma Quote
punked Posted October 8, 2012 Report Posted October 8, 2012 Another lost generation. And that is what I am seeing Conservatives on this forum saying. I see them saying "So what I got mine, I have a job, I have a house...etc....I never want to give the the next generation the chances I had because well FREEEEEE MAAAARRRRKKKKEEETTTSSS!!!" It is crazy. Quote
CPCFTW Posted October 8, 2012 Report Posted October 8, 2012 Nothing is ever going to recover if no one ever spends the money. That is what this whole stimulus argument was about. You are right when the Recovery happens the money will roll in. The question then becomes why do we suffer needlessly through 10 years of no growth, high youth unemployment, private and public sector falling behind in competitiveness, when we could have those 10 years back now by opening the spigot for a few years to spending in either the public or private sector? Seriously we are going to have a lost decade because we feel we need collective punishment for no reason. Canadian stimulus won't affect the global recovery. Europe and US stimulus is all the stimulus we need. All we can do is position ourselves as well as we can within the context of the global economy. When the global economy recovers, having a lot of cash to invest, balanced budgets, low taxes, and free trade agreements in place is the best position we could hope for. Quote
punked Posted October 8, 2012 Report Posted October 8, 2012 (edited) Canadian stimulus won't affect the global recovery. Europe and US stimulus is all the stimulus we need. All we can do is position ourselves as well as we can within the context of the global economy. When the global economy recovers, having a lot of cash to invest, balanced budgets, low taxes, and free trade agreements in place is the best position we could hope for. So you agree what the global economy needs and should have had from the start was a strong stimulus and that right wingers everywhere stood in the way for no reason. BTW we could have all those things and with a little more government spending we could also have world class infrastructure in terms of our power grids and Internet (right now we have some of the worst Internet in the world) a well trained population for the jobs that will be needed to help companies grow on world markets and make us the place to invest. We could have a lot if we did some targeted stimulus in the places (such as Ontario and out East) that have weak labour markets at this point in time. I think we agree the private sector is doing what they have to right now it is the public sector that is failing. Edited October 8, 2012 by punked Quote
Shady Posted October 8, 2012 Report Posted October 8, 2012 That is fine but you are against the government picking up the slack to create an economic environment where these firm will want to spend. So your solution is basically just suffer through a depression. I just want to be clear those are the policies you are advocating for. You want government to cut back spending at the same time as the private sector leading to the private sector to be more scared of investment and spending causing more layoffs and depression. That is shitty policy. Nope, my solution is for Europe to craft an actual resolution to the debt problem, and for America to do the same regarding the fiscal cliff issue that takes place on January 1st. If both of those are resolved, a significant amount of certainty returns to the global economy. Quote
Shady Posted October 8, 2012 Report Posted October 8, 2012 So you agree what the global economy needs and should have had from the start was a strong stimulus and that right wingers everywhere stood in the way for no reason. Nope, what the global economy needed was a real resolution to the EU debt problem, and the American fiscal cliff of Janary 1st. Without taking care of those things, all the stimulus in the world won't make a difference. It's tantamount to giving somebody with cancer a stimuluant, and thinking that that's going to fix everything. Quote
punked Posted October 8, 2012 Report Posted October 8, 2012 (edited) Nope, what the global economy needed was a real resolution to the EU debt problem, and the American fiscal cliff of Janary 1st. Without taking care of those things, all the stimulus in the world won't make a difference. It's tantamount to giving somebody with cancer a stimuluant, and thinking that that's going to fix everything. Oh your solution is just to fix the EU debt problem? Sure no problem. How about we just cut more jobs cause a depression. It is working so well in Spain. Money is just flowing into that country. That is your solution policies that lead to a great depression. Your solutions are Hoover solutions we spent the depression doing things your way. Seriously we already have a historic example of what happens when we do what you say. Those things can be fix but fixing them before growth starts is a great way to have a lost decade. Edited October 8, 2012 by punked Quote
cybercoma Posted October 8, 2012 Author Report Posted October 8, 2012 Shady wants One World Government. Quote
punked Posted October 8, 2012 Report Posted October 8, 2012 Shady wants One World Government. He wants a great depression. He has made that much clear. Quote
Argus Posted October 8, 2012 Report Posted October 8, 2012 Yep and there's a word for that,its called "extortion"! Or "manipulation"? How about "monopoly"? WWWTT The correct word is Capitalism. There's nothing extortionate about it. Quote "A liberal is someone who claims to be open to all points of view — and then is surprised and offended to find there are other points of view.” William F Buckley
Argus Posted October 8, 2012 Report Posted October 8, 2012 Another lost generation thanks to conservative politics and myopic austerity measures. Lost generation? Unemployment isn't particularly high, and the economy isn't particularly bad. What is it you're complaining about anyway? What do you want them to do? Quote "A liberal is someone who claims to be open to all points of view — and then is surprised and offended to find there are other points of view.” William F Buckley
Shady Posted October 8, 2012 Report Posted October 8, 2012 Oh your solution is just to fix the EU debt problem? My solution is for the EU to finally come up with a real solution for the Eurozone. In conjuction with America coming up with a resolution regarding the January 1st deadline of the fiscal cliff. All of that has much more impact on the economy, and in particular uncertainty than any stimulus would. Addressing those issues would push the global economy ahead, more than all the stimulus in the world. Quote
CPCFTW Posted October 8, 2012 Report Posted October 8, 2012 (edited) So you agree what the global economy needs and should have had from the start was a strong stimulus and that right wingers everywhere stood in the way for no reason. BTW we could have all those things and with a little more government spending we could also have world class infrastructure in terms of our power grids and Internet (right now we have some of the worst Internet in the world) a well trained population for the jobs that will be needed to help companies grow on world markets and make us the place to invest. We could have a lot if we did some targeted stimulus in the places (such as Ontario and out East) that have weak labour markets at this point in time. I think we agree the private sector is doing what they have to right now it is the public sector that is failing. I don't agree to that. I'm saying that Canadian stimulus is irrelevant within a global recession. If the US, China, and Europe chose to forego growth and focus on correcting their fiscal imbalances, then Canadian stimulus spending would have sent us the way of Greece, Italy, and Spain. We are a leaf in the wind and stimulus spending would be an unnecessary gamble. Whether or not I agree that global stimulus is the correct thing to do is not relevant to Canadian policy. Other governments stimulating the economy by going further into debt and devaluing their currencies benefits Canada in the short run... but that debt will eventually have to be paid. Edited October 8, 2012 by CPCFTW Quote
cybercoma Posted October 8, 2012 Author Report Posted October 8, 2012 Lost generation? Unemployment isn't particularly high, and the economy isn't particularly bad. What is it you're complaining about anyway? What do you want them to do? There's a huge generation gap. Unemployment isn't particularly high overall. When you look at youth unemployment and credit problems, you see a completely different picture. Quote
punked Posted October 8, 2012 Report Posted October 8, 2012 My solution is for the EU to finally come up with a real solution for the Eurozone. In conjuction with America coming up with a resolution regarding the January 1st deadline of the fiscal cliff. All of that has much more impact on the economy, and in particular uncertainty than any stimulus would. Addressing those issues would push the global economy ahead, more than all the stimulus in the world. THAT IS WHAT THEY DID IN THE GREAT DEPRESSION. Shady you policies have been tried. They were horrible. Quote
punked Posted October 8, 2012 Report Posted October 8, 2012 I don't agree to that. I'm saying that Canadian stimulus is irrelevant within a global recession. If the US, China, and Europe chose to forego growth and focus on correcting their fiscal imbalances, then Canadian stimulus spending would have sent us the way of Greece, Italy, and Spain. We are a leaf in the wind and stimulus spending would be an unnecessary gamble. Whether or not I agree that global stimulus is the correct thing to do is not relevant to Canadian policy. Other governments stimulating the economy by going further into debt and devaluing their currencies benefits Canada in the short run... but that debt will eventually have to be paid. Just like the Debt taken on during WW2 and the dressiness? No wait they never paid that debt off they just grew their GDP so much so fast after the recovery that debt didn't matter anymore. Your arguments are wrong. Why are we having the same arguments that we have already had tired and know work or don't? This is silly. Quote
cybercoma Posted October 8, 2012 Author Report Posted October 8, 2012 Jim Flaherty is just going to beg private business into spending. You see. Then the government doesn't have to do anything. They can keep cutting back to appease their base. Except what are they going to do when business doesn't spend? Quote
Shady Posted October 8, 2012 Report Posted October 8, 2012 THAT IS WHAT THEY DID IN THE GREAT DEPRESSION. Shady you policies have been tried. They were horrible. NO THEY DIDN'T PUNKED, TRY READING A HISTORY BOOK. What they did during the depression was massive trade barriers and protectionist trade practices. Quote
punked Posted October 8, 2012 Report Posted October 8, 2012 NO THEY DIDN'T PUNKED, TRY READING A HISTORY BOOK. What they did during the depression was massive trade barriers and protectionist trade practices. Shady you are just to much sometimes. We saw in 1937 when huge cuts in government were made during a quick recovery it soon lead back into depression. Which is what you want right now. NOW IS NOT THE TIME, 2008 certainty was not the time. Instead of cutting taxes during good times (I an looking at you Harper) you should bank, in the form of paying off debt that money, so you can either cut taxes or spending during the rough times like right now because as we have seen cutting during this time (Britian, Spain, Greece) leads to no recoveries deeper holes and more debt. You solution to get out of the hole is to to get deeper that is what we have seen in those places in Europe who have done what you prescribe. Although the places that have spent (Austria, Sweden etc.) have seen huge gains in their GDP and return on investment. DO WHAT WORKS. Quote
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