I contend that Islam and .....and ......are Not just religions.

[Peter F]

I maintain that some so called religions don't meet the test and are indeed as in the case of Islam given both it's history, laws, practice and doctrine more a political force than a religious order.

http://fullcomment.nationalpost.com/2012/10/06/robert-fulford-anti-semitism-without-jews-in-malaysia/

Looking at this piece, it seems that a political party with ties to Islam have become anti-Semitic

anti-Israeli simply because of politics.

Sorry, Islam among others are more political than religious.

Your contention is:

If there is a major political or military component I feel that it can't be a religion.

What is christianity by that definition? Apperently it could not have been a religion up until when? Then it became a religion once it lost political/military influence (and I am suggesting that Christians have not lost the political element that they used to have)?

By your own definition christianity could not have been a religion.

Its political influence may have waned in recent years but it aint politically dead yet.

Edited October 9, 2012 by Peter F

[Peter F]

Islam is very obviously a religion - no matter what its political power. There are many many muslims almost completely devoid of political influence in North America. So, by your own standard, in North America its a real valid religion is it not?

[Argus]

Are you saying that adherents from Muslim countries call for punishment from their holy books while Christians do not ? I don't think that's new.

It's more than just calling for punishments. It's how government deals with people, it's commercial law, ie, laws regarding interest, it's social behaviour.

So, it's not what's in the books - it's the culture then ? So as the culture is diluted into western culture, there shouldn't be a problem then - right ? That's what happens to religious cultures in an environment of utter freedom it seems.

Possibly, but that is not the subject under discussion. The subject is whether Islam is not just a religion but a political ideology as well. You seem to be sidestepping that one.

[Argus]

Islam is very obviously a religion - no matter what its political power. There are many many muslims almost completely devoid of political influence in North America. So, by your own standard, in North America its a real valid religion is it not?

The suggestion is not that Islam is not a religion but that it is not JUST a religion. The followthrough is clear. We shouldn't be attacking people for their religion, but their political ideology is fair game.

[Michael Hardner]

It's more than just calling for punishments. It's how government deals with people, it's commercial law, ie, laws regarding interest, it's social behaviour.

The bible also prescribes business behavior.

Possibly, but that is not the subject under discussion. The subject is whether Islam is not just a religion but a political ideology as well. You seem to be sidestepping that one.

If that is the question then no - it's not just a religion.

[Guest Peeves]

The suggestion is not that Islam is not a religion but that it is not JUST a religion. The followthrough is clear. We shouldn't be attacking people for their religion, but their political ideology is fair game.

I might fault that position.. Not the attacking people part, but the religious /political tenets and draconian sentences.

Shariah laws are religious and political and I would suggest as such, subject to 'attack'.

"Shari'a is an Arabic word meaning “path” or “way.” Today the term is used most commonly to mean “Islamic law,” the detailed system of religious law developed by Muslim scholars in the first three centuries of Islam and still in force among fundamentalists today.

Shari'a tries to describe in detail all possible human acts, dividing them into permitted (halal) and prohibited (haram). It subdivides them into various degrees of good or evil such as obligatory, recommended, neutral, objectionable or forbidden. This vast compendium of rules regulates all matters of devotional life, worship, ritual purity, marriage and inheritance, criminal offenses, commerce and personal conduct. It also regulates the governing of the Islamic state and its relations to non-Muslims within the state as well as to enemies outside the state. Shari'a influences the behavior and worldview of most Muslims, even in secular states where it forms no part of the law of the land.

Islam teaches that shari'a, as God’s revealed law, perfect and eternal, is binding on individuals, society and state in all its details. By logical extension, any criticism of shari'a is heresy. Muslims who deny the validity of shari'a in any way are labeled as non-Muslims (infidels) or apostates (those who convert to another religion) by traditionalists and Islamists. As such, they face the threat of being prosecuted for apostasy, a crime that carries the death penalty in shari'a."

http://www.discoverthenetworks.org/viewSubCategory.asp?id=774

So I maintain that Islam is a political 'way'. of followers.

[Peter F]

The suggestion is not that Islam is not a religion but that it is not JUST a religion. The followthrough is clear. We shouldn't be attacking people for their religion, but their political ideology is fair game.

Of course thier political ideology is fair game - hell, even the religious ideology is fair game. That is obvious and beyond dispute.

But reading the linked basis of Peeves contention and even the contention itself leads to one conclusion which contradicts what you are saying.

Islam, according to Peeves, must not be viewed as a religion but as a political ideology. His linked opinion piece describes why it is necessary to

conclude that. It is necessary because then "Western Civilizitation" will not be hobbled by the civilized concept of freedom of religion. We can then

take some sort of un-named steps against the political ideology.

Of course the linked op is full of shit too because even if we took the absurd position that Islam is not a religion - we still couldn't take any steps against the political ideology....outside of criticising it - just as we do now at this very moment and all over these very forums.

So Peeves point is, well, without one.

[Guest Peeves]

Of course thier political ideology is fair game - hell, even the religious ideology is fair game. That is obvious and beyond dispute.

But reading the linked basis of Peeves contention and even the contention itself leads to one conclusion which contradicts what you are saying.

Islam, according to Peeves, must not be viewed as a religion but as a political ideology. His linked opinion piece describes why it is necessary to

conclude that. It is necessary because then "Western Civilizitation" will not be hobbled by the civilized concept of freedom of religion. We can then

take some sort of un-named steps against the political ideology.

Of course the linked op is full of shit too because even if we took the absurd position that Islam is not a religion - we still couldn't take any steps against the political ideology....outside of criticising it - just as we do now at this very moment and all over these very forums.

So Peeves point is, well, without one.

How is it absurd that Islam is not JUST a religion. And, we certainly can take steps against Islamist political ideology and have. An NDP party in power was once about to make part of sharia laws applicable in Ontario and was shot down far beyond just being critical. We stopped it in its tracks with the help of Muslims(mostly female Muslims).

We can stand up to Islamist or other ideology and deny any influence on our own culture and laws.

http://www.ehow.com/facts_6801480_sharia-law-canada-2008.html

And if I have no point ( I most certainly do),I suggest then that all those opining on the issue including yourself have no point either.

[Peter F]

How is it absurd that Islam is not JUST a religion. And, we certainly can take steps against Islamist political ideology and have. An NDP party in power was once about to make part of sharia laws applicable in Ontario and was shot down far beyond just being critical. We stopped it in its tracks with the help of Muslims(mostly female Muslims).

We can stand up to Islamist or other ideology and deny any influence on our own culture and laws.

and there you go. See? Islam is considered a religion. And thats not a big deal.

[Guest Peeves]

and there you go. See? Islam is considered a religion. And thats not a big deal.

Huh? We stopped a political aspect of Islam from being foisted on Muslim women. A political law that deprives women of rights, human rights. Islam is as political as it is religious, probably (say I ) more so.

[Peter F]

Huh? We stopped a political aspect of Islam from being foisted on Muslim women. A political law that deprives women of rights, human rights. Islam is as political as it is religious, probably (say I ) more so.

yeah, and how did Islam being a religion stop muslim women from puttin the kybosh on Sharia arbitrations? It didnt.

[Guest Peeves]

yeah, and how did Islam being a religion stop muslim women from puttin the kybosh on Sharia arbitrations? It didnt.

How? A moderate Muslim organization campaigned against the Ontario Muslim (men) that wanted Sharia.

You can look it up if you have an open mind. The push for Sharia was of course a political move and our then NDP government nearly bought it.

Islam is a political movement, always has been. Attaching it to a religion was simply a ploy to attract converts and the numbers needed to enact laws..political laws.

They simply took 'this' from the Jews, and 'that' from the Christians and then went to war. Political war.

[Sleipnir]

Islam and Scientology and perhaps others conduct themselves in tenets and doctrines that exceed the definition of religion in my opinion. If there is a major political or military component I feel that it can't be a religion.

Of course that is debatable, so change my mind.

My criteria on what defined a religion (must have all 4 criteria)

1) Belief in at least one higher being.

2) Religious scriptures (written or vocal), artifacts or locations that offers a source of religious comfort.

3) Tenets or Creeds that established the behaviour system of the mass.

4) Place of worship (temples, churches, mosque) or pilgrimage at specific times.

Therefore Christianity, Islam, Judaism, Scientology, Buddhism and others are religions in my opinion.

[Bonam]

My criteria on what defined a religion (must have all 4 criteria)

1) Belief in at least one higher being.

2) Religious scriptures (written or vocal), artifacts or locations that offers a source of religious comfort.

3) Tenets or Creeds that established the behaviour system of the mass.

4) Place of worship (temples, churches, mosque) or pilgrimage at specific times.

Therefore Christianity, Islam, Judaism, Scientology, Buddhism and others are religions in my opinion.

That's all well and good, but the claim in question is not that Islam isn't a religion. Rather, the claim is that Islam is "not only" a religion.

[Mr.Canada]

That's all well and good, but the claim in question is not that Islam isn't a religion. Rather, the claim is that Islam is "not only" a religion.

It's a political ideology as well. Look n o further than Saudi Arabia or Iran.

[Mighty AC]

Meh, just like Christianity in its glory days. Islam is just a religion backed by a few states which grant it political power. You know, kind of like many CPC and Repub supporters want to install in North America.

Edited November 6, 2012 by Mighty AC