Hargrove's NDP Advice: Leave QC to Bloc

[maplesyrup]

Hargrove calls on NDP to leave Quebec to Bloc, form leftist alliance

I like Buzz a lot but this is where he and I part company. I disagree.

[Bakunin]

i agree with him that if the npd want to be a serious opposition party and have possibility to win election one day, they could win more than 54 seats in quebec if they ally with the bloc and it could boost its support.

Layton already talked about assimetrical federalism that could interest the sovregnist movement. Another thing is that ndp members in quebec are sovreignist, its because of Layton's open mind that they came.

The proposition seems vague at this time, but it should be debate.

[Cartman]

Maybe this is not such a bad idea after all. The parties would not be merging, it sounds as though he is just asking for strategic influence and coordination. They will probably vote the same way on most issues anyways so they may as well coordinate their actions and both become relevant. I say get the media attention, take the hits and stir up the political landscape.

New Dems and the Bloc.

[Big Blue Machine]

The NDP stand for all powerful federal government. Bloc stands for greater powers to the provinces. But they are both socialists. They would have 73? seats to the 99/135 seats to Cons/Libs.

[Cartman]

74 seats if the NDP takes Parrish.

[Big Blue Machine]

It doesn't seem likely for the NDP and Bloc join together.

[Bakunin]

The NDP stand for all powerful federal government. Bloc stands for greater powers to the provinces. But they are both socialists. They would have 73? seats to the 99/135 seats to Cons/Libs.

This is something i find confusing about the ndp. Layton is building a complete new party and sometime its hard to know what is the real position of the ndp. For example they talk about an assymetrical federalism, but before layton it was more a centralised federalism. The old ndp voted for the clarity bill, but the new with layton say they want to take down the bill... Sometime i wonder if layton is the backbone and the only one with idea in his party and the members really agree with him or they don't care about its pollitical view has long has he can rebuild the party.

[Big Blue Machine]

Making deals with a seperatist party is a silly idea for the NDP. They have stood for One Canada. The Bloc stands for Quebec nationalism and seperatism.

I agree that the NDP need more momentum to be more effective, but making deals with the Bloc is not the answer.

[Bakunin]

Making deals with a seperatist party is a silly idea for the NDP. They have stood for One Canada. The Bloc stands for Quebec nationalism and seperatism.

I agree that the NDP need more momentum to be more effective, but making deals with the Bloc is not the answer.

Thei already have separatist in their own party....

its not like 1-2 separatist, i think its more like 85-95% of all their quebec members presenting for election if not more...

Its really hard for them because the federalist always tend to vote liberal in quebec. Except when their really pissed off and when thei are, to the place of voting ndp or conservative, thei vote bloc...

[Big Blue Machine]

Quebec is deft to the NDP's message. And it always will be.

[Bakunin]

Quebec is deft to the NDP's message. And it always will be.

What do you mean by deft ? i never heard this word before :/

[Big Blue Machine]

deaf* rather, Quebec has/and will always been DEAF too the NDP's message. Which is good, because without Quebec, no one can try to form a national government.

[August1991]

i agree with him that if the npd want to be a serious opposition party and have possibility to win election one day, they could win more than 54 seats in quebec if they ally with the bloc and it could boost its support.

There is no way the BQ will get more than 54 seats in Quebec. The twenty remaining seats are Fluffy/Rover seats - a federalist cat or dog could win them.

In fact, the NDP and BQ already have a coalition of sorts. The BQ doesn't present candidates where the NDP can win; and the NDP doesn't present a threat where the BQ can win.

There is no electoral effect of this. Hargrove is stating the obvious.

On the other hand, what would be the optics from either side?

BQ perspective: Why would the BQ align with a loser NDP party? Will the NDP advance the cause of a separate Quebec?

But there is an angle that is intriguing. Many separatists are anti-BQ because its existence implies federalism can work. Few have explored the possibility that the BQ might be the way to find honestly (not Meech crooked) a new arrangement for a sovereign Quebec within a Canadian federation. A BQ-NDP association might give the BQ legitimacy in the eyes of some Quebec voters.

NDP perspective: How would ordinary NDP voters feel about a NDP-BQ alliance? Layton had courage when he publicly repudiated the Clarity Act in the past election. But feelings about Quebec seem to cut across ROC's ideological scale. It seems there are hardliners (no more concession to those Quebecers) in all ROC parties.

Layton is building a complete new party and sometime its hard to know what is the real position of the ndp. For example they talk about an assymetrical federalism, but before layton it was more a centralised federalism.

Bakunin is completely right. The NDP is too flakey.

[Bakunin]

There is no way the BQ will get more than 54 seats in Quebec. The twenty remaining seats are Fluffy/Rover seats - a federalist cat or dog could win them.

Yes but 2-3 county where won by a small margin by the liberal but it depend on so much things that its hard to predict the impact with no details. If the bq would have a chance to govern or would put on ice the sovreignty project, depending on the mood and the support for the deal, i think they could get more than now but only if the people are pissed off by the liberal like last election.

In fact, the NDP and BQ already have a coalition of sorts. The BQ doesn't present candidates where the NDP can win; and the NDP doesn't present a threat where the BQ can win.

On many point they agree, we can just remember the debate where duccepe used the time between him and Layton to attack martin hehe , but its clear that its has changed a lot since Layton came because before, when the ndp voted for the clarity bill, they lost all their supporter in quebec...

BQ perspective: Why would the BQ align with a loser NDP party? Will the NDP advance the cause of a separate Quebec?

But there is an angle that is intriguing. Many separatists are anti-BQ because its existence implies federalism can work. Few have explored the possibility that the BQ might be the way to find honestly (not Meech crooked) a new arrangement for a sovereign Quebec within a Canadian federation. A BQ-NDP association might give the BQ legitimacy in the eyes of some Quebec voters.

NDP perspective: How would ordinary NDP voters feel about a NDP-BQ alliance? Layton had courage when he publicly repudiated the Clarity Act in the past election. But feelings about Quebec seem to cut across ROC's ideological scale. It seems there are hardliners (no more concession to those Quebecers) in all ROC parties.

I agree their is a lot of question with no answer... And remember just before we got the election result a lot of people talked about a possible bloc-conservative alliance in the common chamber. I thinks its 1 good side about the bq, its they can adapt to any situation. their political ideologie is large and often really near of the quebecers general opinion.

[maplesyrup]

NDP has dialogue and debate which is healthy for any political party.

What Parrish did is healthy for the Liberals.

And what Parizeau did is healthy for the separatists to debate.

Have no dissention and your party will die.

There will be no NDP - Bloc alliance just like there will be no Cons - Bloc alliance.

Someday a federalist left of centre provincial party will be formed in Quebec.

[maplesyrup]

Layton says NDP will continue to fight in Que.

Jack Layton said Friday the NDP won't give up on Quebec and will continue to run candidates in the province, despite a suggestion the Bloc Quebecois should be the province's leftist voice.

Layton was cool to the idea by a major union leader the New Democrats should forget about making inroads in Quebec.

Buzz Hargrove, president of the Canadian Auto Workers, had earlier told a CAW meeting in Montreal the NDP had failed to make any gains in Quebec and should consider working with the popular Bloc in a left-wing alliance in the Commons.

But Layton said the NDP has increased its membership in Quebec and ran strong campaigns in some of the province's ridings in the June 28 federal election.

"We have a very active presence in Quebec," the NDP leader said after a speech to 900 CAW delegates.

"Our goal is to give Canadians in elections a pan-Canadian party that's running for government and if we were not to have candidates in Quebec at all that wouldn't be possible.

Layton makes the correct move - turns a thumbs down to Hargrove's latest proposal. It will take a bit of time but Jack is on the correct path in Quebec..