Why I love the U.S.

[Guest American Woman]

Since I misread you, apparently not. My apologies.

At any rate, I should probably have made another point as well: I pretty much agree with you.

Thank you. I appreciate the apology and your willingness to put it out there that you agree with me.

These big campaign conventions are not in any way necessary to make an informed judgement, and are basically reality tv, degraded entertainment for those of us interested in politics.

I agree. It's a "show," a rally. There was even a celebrity there - Clint Eastwood - to draw ratings. I personally don't watch the conventions for that reason.

That wasn't the intent, originally, but it is the effect. And no, "Here comes Honey Boo Boo" is not, in my view, more stupid and more degraded than the Republican Convention. It's not my cup of tea, but I don't see it as the worst of reality television. Not even close.

I really don't watch reality tv, but I will point out that Bristol Palin got her own show, exploiting her son, just because of who she is - and I'm just pointing out that I love that ordinary Americans have the same opportunities, and draw as much attention as a rich, privileged politician. I don't understand why people are going on and on about the show itself, as that has nothing to do with my point.

(Although the pageant show that spawned it is among the worst. Gross.)

And Romneys stance on SSM is among the worst political stances. Which has nothing to do with my point. You see that, don't you? That it's about opportunity, not the show itself? Please tell me that you get that.

I also agree with you about the American versus Canadian jingoistic "we're the best" stuff; that is, there is no "versus." They're more or less the same thing. (If not, why not, eh?)

Exactly. They are the same thing. The idea that Harper saying "Every country wants to be Canada" is somehow more acceptable because he said it at an economic summit than Romney saying "The U.S. is the greatest country in the history of the world" at an American political rally is ridiculous. Harper also says Canada is the best or greatest country in the world. Canadians say Canada is the best or greatest country in the world. Whether they say it more or less often has nothing to do with it.

No doubt there are slight cultural distinctions, but they are "distinctions without a difference," as the phrase goes.

Exactly; and Canada is Canada, and the U.S. is the U.S., as it should be.

In both cases, it's mostly harmless anyway (if irritating), especially if it's not actually a political opinion, or rather as the genesis of a political opinion.

I find it completely harmless and not at all irritating. I used to find it irritating simply because I knew others would judge the U.S./Americans for it. Now I see the problem lies with those doing the judging; and quite frankly, I love a good show of love of country - whether it be the U.S. or Canada. That's the way I am, and I don't have to be like the next person in order for my feelings to be acceptable. Same goes with the U.S. and Americans - we don't have to show pride of country exactly the same number of times as Canadians do in order for it to be deemed acceptable.

[Guest American Woman]

Oh jesus gimme a break. Here we go again.

Oh jesus gimme ME a break.

If you don't criticize Americans for what Canadians do while giving Canadians a pass, I won't have to point out that it's apparently acceptable behavior for some, but not Americans. Keep pushing your ludicrous idea, and I will keep responding.

Why don't they say "The US is a great country?", or "the US is one of the greatest countries in human history" etc.?

Probably for the same reason Harper didn't say "Everyone wants to be Canada or a country just like it" or "Canada is a great country" instead of "Canada is the greatest country."

Why are they compelled to say "we're the best ever!".

For the same reason Harper is compelled to say "Canada is the greatest country."

Romney was speaking to Americans, telling Americans that. It wasn't a speech directed at the world, it was a speech directed at Americans. Same as what Harper says is directed at Canadians - and why no Americans say, "Why did Harper say that?? Why can't he say "Canada is A great country" instead of "Canada is THE greatest country?" I've never heard of so much as ONE American objecting to that, or judging Canada/Canadians for it.

I'm sorry, Canadians & Canadian politicians don't do the "we are best country in the world!" thing at the same rate as Americans. Not even close.

So what?? For one thing, we are ten times the size, so if ten times as many do it, we are "in ratio" - if that is the criteria one judges the "appropriateness" of behavior on - which is pretty ludicrous. I personally have no idea if Canada does it "at the same rate" as Americans, and I couldn't care less. That you do care boggles my mind. But Canada DOES do it and I see and hear many a Canadian saying Canada is the best country in the world.

Nothing at all wrong with "U-S-A!" chants, but when it comes after "We're the greatest country in human history!" rants by politicians its lame.

Some think Canada's extreme love of hockey and shouts of "Can-a-da!" after a win is lame. I think it's the most natural thing in the world to chant "U-S-A!" during what is, in effect, a political rally. If you don't agree, that's one thing - but to judge is, imo, pretty lame.

It's interesting how so often Americans are perceived as arrogant and thinking everyone should be just like them and anything else is inferior - as we are so often judged by how we do things differently. We are not as great a country as Canada because - we don't have the same health care, we have different gun laws, we have stricter criminal penalties, we are more religious, and of course we chant "USA! and show patriotism more often. And lets' not forget that we're also fatter and more stupid.

And there's a difference between loving your country, and believing your superior to every other country now and of all times.

And there's a difference between loving your country and saying that everyone wants to be your country.

I do love the US, for many reasons, but many Americans, especially on the hyper-patriot right, are a bit arrogant about their country.

And Canadians aren't?? - as those on the "hyper left" are a bit more arrogant about Canada?

A lot of American friends I have who are a bit more liberal can be a bit self-critical too though and admit both positives and faults, so it's all good, i'm trying not to generalize.

But for the most part you are, as you claim to try not to. You also give Canada and Canadians a pass for the same behavior.

What can I say, I don't really like wacko right-wingers, in Canada or the US, and watching that dang GOP convention just drove me nuts I guess LOL.

That says it all, and I can relate to that (as I would be able to relate to those who feel the same about the other side of the coin ie: the Democratic convention). But you are taking your feelings and throwing them critically at the U.S. - while making excuses and giving Canada and Canadians a pass for the same thing.

An anti-intellegence rodeo it seemed like. People cheering Condi Rice for pete's sake! I feel bad for US conservatives with a brain who have to put up with that embarassment of a party. *rant #2 over*

And I feel bad for Canadians who have a need to react so strongly to another country's political rally, so it's all relative. The GOP is not more or less an "embarrassment" than any other party, and that includes Canadian parties. It's all in the eye of the beholder one's political beliefs.

[waldo]

I, however, feel that such opportunities, the opportunity for a redneck family - which is part of America as much as the rich, privileged politician is - to garner just as much attention as a political "show," is one of them.

Are you truly unable to see that it's not about THE SHOW, but THE OPPORTUNITY for those involved?? Whether or not I like the show, which I've never watched and never will, it gives ordinary Americans the opportunity

It's not about the show. It's about the opportunity.

It's not about the show, it's about opportunity.

I don't understand why people are going on and on about the show itself, as that has nothing to do with my point.

the show... is your point - an encapsulation of the 'dumbing down of America'. The real opportunity you continue to blather on about, is the opportunity for television networks to reap inordinate amounts of advertising monies with extremely small production costs, while delivering an end-product that purports to be "entertainment". Notwithstanding the dumbing down product, your celebration of, "the opportunity", as the foundation for your expressed love of country... celebrates vanity, narcissism, "stardom", notoriety, fame, etc., as priorities in your American society.

[kimmy]

The actual numbers mean nothing regarding the point I am making.

(...)

Wow. So people watched - or didn't watch - for a variety of reasons. Which has nothing to do with the point I was making.

It's pertinent to some of the arguments being made in this thread.

"Americans are not politically engaged!" or "Americans are rejecting political dog and pony shows!" are theories that have been presented here. But making generalizations like that simply isn't supported by the information that's been presented so far.

Are you truly unable to see that it's not about THE SHOW, but THE OPPORTUNITY for those involved?? Whether or not I like the show, which I've never watched and never will, it gives ordinary Americans the opportunity to compete with a rich, privileged politician, who is part of a political rally; part of a show. Which was my point.

I guess we have a different view of how much of an "opportunity" this is for Honey Boo-Boo and her family. I hope they're getting a lot of money for this. That's all I can say. That's the only good thing that can come of this for this family. This is the modern day equivalent of the Freak Show Circus, and I just hope they're being paid a lot better than the Bearded Lady and the Dog-Faced Boy.

I don't believe they were able to "compete" with Paul Ryan in any meaningful sense.

Your response is sort of like my saying that any 35+ year old natural born American can become POTUS, and that's one of the things I love about the U.S.; that even Americans born in a log cabin, using Lincoln as an example, have the opportunity to become president - and people saying, "But I don't like Lincoln or his ideas. I think he sucked as president."

Well, that analogy kind of depends on the comparison of becoming president to becoming famous on a reality TV show. I don't think it's a very good comparison.

Becoming president (in theory, at least) requires the best qualities of humanity. Reality TV is often a celebration of the worst qualities, most commonly stupidity and boorishness and ignorance.

But since you brought it up, *I* bet far more Americans are nauseated by the GOP/Ryan platform regarding abortion and gay marriage etc. than they are by Honey Boo Boo.

Hopefully.

And I imagine most Americans couldn't care less, and simply chose not to watch it if they don't like it, rather than basing their love of America on one television show.

The wart on my heel doesn't make me love myself any less, but I'll still be happy when it's gone.

Judging from what I'm seeing in headlines and social media, I think many Americans feel the same way about Jersey Shore that I feel about my wart.

-k

[GostHacked]

Yeah, because of course no dumbass Canadians watch. They're all too busy watching the AMERICAN conventions. Hanging on every word.

So you'd rather us pay attention to retarded 'reality' shows instead of listening to what your possible future president might be like? Which has more value to you as an American and to Canadians like me?

Maybe you prefer

American Hogger?

Swamp Rats?

These reality shows are anything but reality, totally scripted. Much like the political party conventions we see in the USA. So I guess it does not matter what you watch, it's all scripted bullshit.

This is the brave new world.

Edited September 1, 2012 by GostHacked

[Guest American Woman]

I guess we have a different view of how much of an "opportunity" this is for Honey Boo-Boo and her family. I hope they're getting a lot of money for this. That's all I can say. That's the only good thing that can come of this for this family. This is the modern day equivalent of the Freak Show Circus, and I just hope they're being paid a lot better than the Bearded Lady and the Dog-Faced Boy.

Once again. It's not about this family specifically, nor is it about what they intend to do with the opportunity - how they plan to take advantage of it. I will say this one more time. It's about the fact that such an opportunity exists outside of wealth and/or politics.

Seems to me you are the one judging her and her family - comparing them to the Bearded Lady and the Dog-faced boy. That says little about you. You are totally making assumptions based on your mindset, putting it on everyone who does enjoy the show. Not everyone feels about her and her family the way you do.

I don't believe they were able to "compete" with Paul Ryan in any meaningful sense.

Again, you are making it about something that it's not. I'm not "comparing" the outcomes, just that I like that such a family is given the opportunity. If they make good use of the money they are getting, put it away for her education, as they have the opportunity to do, I see that as a positive thing - for someone who is not born into riches and fame.

Well, that analogy kind of depends on the comparison of becoming president to becoming famous on a reality TV show. I don't think it's a very good comparison.

*Sigh* No, it does not depend on the comparison of becoming president to becoming famous on a reality TV show; it has to do with opportunity. If you still don't get that, you are either being purposely obtuse - or you are unable to comprehend what I am actually saying, which I wouldn't have expected of you.

The wart on my heel doesn't make me love myself any less, but I'll still be happy when it's gone.

Good. Lord. The wart on your heel is a part of you, while "Jersey Shore" is not a part of me. I couldn't care less if it were here or gone - because unlike you and your wart, I had absolutely no awareness of it - and truth be told, had no idea if it were here or gone.

But again. All of this goes off on a completely different tangent than the point I was making. Again. Opportunity. - And quite frankly the fact that some have no more respect for the convention speeches and hoopla than they do for this show.

Edited September 1, 2012 by American Woman

[Guest American Woman]

So you'd rather us pay attention to retarded 'reality' shows instead of listening to what your possible future president might be like? Which has more value to you as an American and to Canadians like me?

Hardly what I said now, is it? Are you totally lacking in the ability to comprehend what I did say?

These reality shows are anything but reality, totally scripted. Much like the political party conventions we see in the USA. So I guess it does not matter what you watch, it's all scripted bullshit.

Seems to me you are the one saying people would be no worse off "pay[ing] attention to retarded 'reality' shows instead of listening to what [my] possible future president might be like." And yes, the political party conventions in the U.S. are scripted; by their nature. It's a rally for the party.

[punked]

Hardly what I said now, is it? Are you totally lacking in the ability to comprehend what I did say?

Seems to me you are the one saying people would be no worse off "pay[ing] attention to retarded 'reality' shows instead of listening to what [my] possible future president might be like." And yes, the political party conventions in the U.S. are scripted; by their nature. It's a rally for the party.

I think the American people made the right choice on this one. I couldn't stand watching the night after the whole Eastwood to chair thing happened. I am sure here comes honey boo boo was a better show that night.

[Guest American Woman]

I think the American people made the right choice on this one. I couldn't stand watching the night after the whole Eastwood to chair thing happened. I am sure here comes honey boo boo was a better show that night.

I know I would have chosen Honey Boo Boo if I had been forced to watch one or the other, although I think Eastwood talking to a chair may actually have been more entertaining; it likely had more comedic value than anything Honey Boo Boo could have come out with.

I do say let those who are interested in the convention watch, but it is scripted, it is a show - it's a pep rally for those wanting to rally. Is that a bad thing? I don't think so. But I think it's a good thing that others have the opportunity to have their '15 minutes,' too - and people can choose to watch, or not watch, any or all of it.

But upon first seeing the ratings, I had an "Only In America" moment, so I kind of ran with it from there, concluding that it wasn't a bad thing - and sometimes "Only In America" moments can represent a good thing.

Edited September 1, 2012 by American Woman

[waldo]

the show... is your point - an encapsulation of the 'dumbing down of America'. The real opportunity you continue to blather on about, is the opportunity for television networks to reap inordinate amounts of advertising monies with extremely small production costs, while delivering an end-product that purports to be "entertainment". Notwithstanding the dumbing down product, your celebration of, "the opportunity", as the foundation for your expressed love of country... celebrates vanity, narcissism, "stardom", notoriety, fame, etc., as priorities in your American society.

oh wait... I get it!

American Dream

:"

life should be better and richer and fuller for everyone, with opportunity for each according to ability or achievement"... "regardless of the fortuitous circumstances of birth or position.

"

you've simply tailored/skewed, "the HoneyBooBoo's", to reinterpret your own personal take on the supposed great national ethos of the United States - the Dumbing Down of America American Dream!

[punked]

oh wait... I get it!

American Dream

:"

life should be better and richer and fuller for everyone, with opportunity for each according to ability or achievement"... "regardless of the fortuitous circumstances of birth or position.

"

you've simply tailored/skewed, "the HoneyBooBoo's", to reinterpret your own personal take on the supposed great national ethos of the United States - the Dumbing Down of America American Dream!

I have always been told by family that the American Dream is each generation has it better then the last. They are FDR democrats so they would say something that made a lot of sense and probably would make for a better country but that half of America would disagree with for no good reason.

[Argus]

Are you truly unable to see that it's not about THE SHOW, but THE OPPORTUNITY for those involved?? Whether or not I like the show, which I've never watched and never will, it gives ordinary Americans the opportunity to compete with a rich, privileged politician, who is part of a political rally; part of a show. Which was my point.

It was a poor point. The fact that redneck families this ignorant even exist is a poor statement about America. The fact that the nation gets to tune in and laugh and snicker at how ignorant they are says nothing good about America either. How is this an opportunity for them as much as say, winning the lottery would be an opportunity?

I abhor the deluge of crass, lowbrow television which has been a constant over the past couple of decades of reality television. It doesn't so much reflect American culture as pollute it and inspire its own reflections in the behaviour of those who watch. It's not that I long for the sanitized television world of the fifties and sixties, but really, this stuff is excrement, and it shouldn't be poured into the mainstream every day.

[Guest American Woman]

It was a poor point. The fact that redneck families this ignorant even exist is a poor statement about America.

Actually, I would say that your attitude and judgment is a poor statement about you.

You think we should sweep people like this under the rug, pretend they don't exist? I hate to break it to you, but they are as much Americans as Bristol Palin is - and they are no more an embarrassment; and I think it's right and just that they should have the same opportunity to have a television show and have the opportunity to compete with a show consisting of the rich, famous, and powerful.

The fact that the nation gets to tune in and laugh and snicker at how ignorant they are says nothing good about America either. How is this an opportunity for them as much as say, winning the lottery would be an opportunity?

How do you feel about people snickering and laughing at the Kardashians, Paris Hilton, and Bristol Palin? I don't think you get my point at all. America isn't just these people, rich privileged people.

I abhor the deluge of crass, lowbrow television which has been a constant over the past couple of decades of reality television. It doesn't so much reflect American culture as pollute it and inspire its own reflections in the behaviour of those who watch. It's not that I long for the sanitized television world of the fifties and sixties, but really, this stuff is excrement, and it shouldn't be poured into the mainstream every day.

Then perhaps you shouldn't be watching it. I happen to agree with you about the quality of such shows, but that's not what my point was about. Clearly.

And again. Some put the 'entertainment' of the conventions in the same category. At any rate, regardless of what you think of them, my point is about opportunity (I think I've covered that enough times, so I won't be going into it yet again) not just for the rich and privileged. That's what America is about - and that's what I like.

[waldo]

... and I think it's right and just that they should have the same opportunity to have a television show and have the opportunity to compete with a show consisting of the rich, famous, and powerful.

At any rate, regardless of what you think of them, my point is about opportunity (I think I've covered that enough times, so I won't be going into it yet again) not just for the rich and privileged. That's what America is about - and that's what I like.

no - your so-called "opportunity" is nothing more than one of exploitation... as I said, the real opportunity allows television networks/producers to reap brazillions for packaged drivel that is much, much cheaper to produce than 'regular' programming... packaged drivel under the guise of "entertainment" that celebrates the low-brow, mind-numbing, trivial and intellectually devoid. Your so-called "opportunity" showcases persons with no perceptible talents and no apparent insights... simply because they are perfectly willing to be seen, heard and recognized for offering nothing of substance/significance, and in many cases to be openly ridiculed by the masses... who continue to revel in the slop, week after week, if only to allow them to negate/ignore their own vacuous existence. Your so-called "opportunity" celebrates a false 'American Dream' reality... while enabling the true reality - the continued dumbing down of America.

[Guest American Woman]

Your so-called "opportunity" celebrates a false 'American Dream' reality... while enabling the true reality - the continued dumbing down of America.

Well, if you say so. After all, you're a Canadian, so you should know what better encompasses The American Dream than I - so I appreciate your take on it, even though I made no reference to it, and it has nothing to do with my point. But let's look at it this way, using your view of America, and perhaps you'll understand what I am saying - I like that rednecks have the opportunity to "dumb down America," too. Why should the rich and privileged have all the fun of doing it?

[kimmy]

Actually, I would say that your attitude and judgment is a poor statement about you.

You think we should sweep people like this under the rug, pretend they don't exist? I hate to break it to you, but they are as much Americans as Bristol Palin is - and they are no more an embarrassment; and I think it's right and just that they should have the same opportunity to have a television show and have the opportunity to compete with a show consisting of the rich, famous, and powerful.

How do you feel about people snickering and laughing at the Kardashians, Paris Hilton, and Bristol Palin? I don't think you get my point at all. America isn't just these people, rich privileged people.

Whether it be the Kardashians, or Paris Hilton, or Jersey Shore, or the Real Housewives of Wherever, or Toddlers in Tiaras, or Honey Boo-Boo... I think the one common feature that draws viewers to this junk is morbid curiosity. People watch this stuff for the same reason people slow down to look at traffic accidents. I think people tune in to feel a range of emotions from pity to schadenfreude to disbelief. I think the ultimate reward most viewers get from seeing Snooki on TV is to be feel better about themselves.

I have some sympathy for Honey Boo-Boo and her family... I do genuinely hope the money they get for this makes their lives better. But there's no doubt in my mind that they are being exploited. As I mentioned before, Honey Boo-Boo first appeared on TV on an episode of Toddlers In Tiaras that went viral on the internet because she induced such a reaction of disbelief and pity.

I think the Kardashians and their ilk are worse. At least with Honey Boo-Boo and her family, they're not there as role-models or celebrities. People might tune in and say "I can't believe these people exist," or they might tune in and say "oh, that poor child, I hope something good happens to her", but nobody is tuning in and saying "I wish I was more like these people."

The Kardashians and the Jersey Shore kids and so on... I can't help wondering if some people actually see these people as role-models. "They're on TV and they're famous and they seem to have such a great life... I should be more like them..." I have seen at least a few people who have styled their clothing and hair and their tan after Snooki or The Situation, and it makes me gasp with concern. I think that turning these people into celebrities is, to some degree, a celebration of ignorance and idiocy, elevating idiots to the status of idols.

Although, none of those come close to being the worst thing I've seen on "reality TV". The worst thing I have seen-- and I only saw a clip that was posted to a message board, I don't know what the show was called-- was some spoiled teen from the Hamptons. It was the girl's 16th birthday and her mother put on an incredibly extravagant birthday party, complete with limousines to drive her and her (apparently) dozens of friends to various clubs and venues they had rented. When they returned home the girl's birthday present was in the driveway-- a brand new Lexus-- and the girl had a howling tantrum, shrieking at her mother that she had "ruined her life". Because, you see, the Lexus was the wrong color.

I think the entire spectacle was the most horrid thing I have ever seen.

-k

[kimmy]

By the way, here's why *I* love the United States.

http://www.luminaidlab.com/

A couple of college girls take part in a disaster relief mission, and realize: "these people need a source of light!" They return home and come up with a brilliant design for a solar powered lantern that is cheap, durable, and compact, and they have made it a reality.

Here's another reason why I love the United States:

http://www.kickstarter.com/

People with ideas for projects can now "crowd-source" funding from strangers who just happen to think "that sounds like a great idea!"

-k

Edited September 3, 2012 by kimmy

[cybercoma]

I think that turning these people into celebrities is, to some degree, a celebration of ignorance and idiocy, elevating idiots to the status of idols.

It's interesting that you mention this because there's an alarming shift in politics to just that: a celebration of ignorance and idiocy. Any kind of academic discourse or research is looked at with skepticism or even worse; Sarah Palin once condemned academics. There's posters on this forum that try to chastise knowledge, education, and intelligence as elitism. In my opinion, there's an alarming dumbing-down of society going on right now with a narcissistic bend. The narcissism I suspect comes from social networking websites and the internet more generally, where everyone has a worldwide soapbox for every banal thought and opinion. You take a political party that pushes hard for populism and you have a recipe for tilting the scales in your favour, while duping the ignorant masses into believe its what's best for them.

Although, none of those come close to being the worst thing I've seen on "reality TV". The worst thing I have seen-- and I only saw a clip that was posted to a message board, I don't know what the show was called-- was some spoiled teen from the Hamptons. It was the girl's 16th birthday and her mother put on an incredibly extravagant birthday party, complete with limousines to drive her and her (apparently) dozens of friends to various clubs and venues they had rented. When they returned home the girl's birthday present was in the driveway-- a brand new Lexus-- and the girl had a howling tantrum, shrieking at her mother that she had "ruined her life". Because, you see, the Lexus was the wrong color.

I think the entire spectacle was the most horrid thing I have ever seen.

-k

I remember that show.

On another episode a girl threw a tantrum because her parents bought her a BMW. She was crushed because she couldn't be seen driving a BMW; she wanted an Audi.

[Guest American Woman]

I think the entire spectacle was the most horrid thing I have ever seen.

I remember that show.

On another episode a girl threw a tantrum because her parents bought her a BMW. She was crushed because she couldn't be seen driving a BMW; she wanted an Audi.

Well now I know who watches that stuff.

Again, my point had nothing to do with the quality of the show(s), but I've repeated that so often it would be less painful to hit my head against the wall. Really, really hard.

[Guest Manny]

More opportunity for some means less for others. And this is true whether it be rich vs poor, masters vs slaves, whites vs natives, and on and on. So while we pride ourelves in our achievements, in the wealth and law and order of our society, we stand on a heap of bones of those whom we and our ancestors trampled on for "the opportunity". Put that on your reality tv.

Edited September 3, 2012 by Manny

[waldo]

no - your so-called "opportunity" is nothing more than one of exploitation... as I said, the real opportunity allows television networks/producers to reap brazillions for packaged drivel that is much, much cheaper to produce than 'regular' programming... packaged drivel under the guise of "entertainment" that celebrates the low-brow, mind-numbing, trivial and intellectually devoid. Your so-called "opportunity" showcases persons with no perceptible talents and no apparent insights... simply because they are perfectly willing to be seen, heard and recognized for offering nothing of substance/significance, and in many cases to be openly ridiculed by the masses... who continue to revel in the slop, week after week, if only to allow them to negate/ignore their own vacuous existence. Your so-called "opportunity" celebrates a false 'American Dream' reality... while enabling the true reality - the continued dumbing down of America.

Well, if you say so. After all, you're a Canadian, so you should know what better encompasses The American Dream than I - so I appreciate your take on it, even though I made no reference to it, and it has nothing to do with my point. But let's look at it this way, using your view of America, and perhaps you'll understand what I am saying - I like that rednecks have the opportunity to "dumb down America," too. Why should the rich and privileged have all the fun of doing it?

why run away from your argument... be/stay proud of it... unless you don't have the courage of your convictions, hey? Of course you were speaking to the "American Dream" - why deny it? Oh wait, perhaps you can alternatively rationalize the how/why of your much touted "opportunity"... why do your "HoneyBooBoo's" do what they do... what are they reaching for... what are they striving for... what are they after?

why disparage what I, as you say, "know of your American Dream"... I quoted you from your Library of Congress - citing the source origination/meaning of the "American Dream". Why are you dissing your American dream?

[Guest American Woman]

why run away from your argument... be/stay proud of it... unless you don't have the courage of your convictions, hey? Of course you were speaking to the "American Dream" - why deny it? Oh wait, perhaps you can alternatively rationalize the how/why of your much touted "opportunity"... why do your "HoneyBooBoo's" do what they do... what are they reaching for... what are they striving for... what are they after?

why disparage what I, as you say, "know of your American Dream"... I quoted you from your Library of Congress - citing the source origination/meaning of the "American Dream". Why are you dissing your American dream?

I don't play your game, remember? And you don't get to determine what I was or wasn't talking about - that ball would be in my court.

[cybercoma]

I don't play your game, remember? And you don't get to determine what I was or wasn't talking about - that ball would be in my court.

Actually, when you converse with people, they sort of need to try and determine what you're talking about to have a conversation.

[waldo]

Actually, when you converse with people, they sort of need to try and determine what you're talking about to have a conversation.

oh no you dinit!

[Guest American Woman]

Actually, when you converse with people, they sort of need to try and determine what you're talking about to have a conversation.

And in case it's totally escaped you, I'm mentioned what I'm talking about, what my point is, oh, about a bajillion times. To the extent that I would rather hit my head against the wall - really, really hard - than repeat it yet again. If some here are still unable to determine what I am talking about, I'm afraid that they need much more help than I am willing to give them.