ROC

[Argus]

Equalization is a federal issue. Blaming Quebec is absurd, especially considering the fact that they are doing things the same as BC and Manitoba when it comes to power resources. It shows an anti-Quebec bigoted attitude.

Well, given Quebec is a province of bigots, perhaps the poster is simply demonstrating his dislike of bigotry...

[Argus]

Sorry, unrelated.

That they may vote for separation is entirely unrelated to the eq program as it exists now

Of course they're related. It's Quebec's incessant whining, sniveling, bitching, complaining and threatening to leave which has gotten their transfer payments adjusted so often in their favour.

And someone asked a question you Quebec lovers haven't tried to answer. Why is it Quebec, with its large, educated population, all its resources, its cheap energy and easy access to other markets, is perpetually a big have-not province?

[westguy]

$257b since 50 yrs ago AND a $250b to sh)y on the ROC

[Sandy MacNab]

Of course they're related. It's Quebec's incessant whining, sniveling, bitching, complaining and threatening to leave which has gotten their transfer payments adjusted so often in their favour.

And someone asked a question you Quebec lovers haven't tried to answer. Why is it Quebec, with its large, educated population, all its resources, its cheap energy and easy access to other markets, is perpetually a big have-not province?

It has been over a month and no answers have been forthcoming from Quebec's champions. Your quesion is an excellent one. Frankly, for the very reasons you give, Quebec should be a "have" province; rivalling if not at the top of the other haves.

[westguy]

can you name one other province that has received $257B over 50 years and provides more social services than others?

[westguy]

with money they have received from others?

[guyser]

can you name one other province that has received $257B over 50 years and provides more social services than others?

Put more people in Alberta and voila!

They would have been at the same dollar amount. You guys that keep bitching about this arent too smart. Alberta has a few people in it, Quebec has a lot....do the math.

Toronto alone loses out on over $4B (that be Billions for you math challenged folks) to support the province and country.

But we dont whine like babies

[Sandy MacNab]

Put more people in Alberta and voila!

They would have been at the same dollar amount. You guys that keep bitching about this arent too smart. Alberta has a few people in it, Quebec has a lot....do the math.

Toronto alone loses out on over $4B (that be Billions for you math challenged folks) to support the province and country.

But we dont whine like babies

Of course not! Ontario and Quebec have had it their own way from well before Confederation. You keep reminding us how much you have "given" to the ROC (that is really a whine per se) but keep forgetting that Canada's economic system has always made sure the ROC bought most goods and services from Central Canada. Ergo, your prosperity, our poverty. Now that the West is wealthy, we "owe" you. Frankly, Western Canada owes Central Canada SFA! YOU still owe US a poltical system that provides each province a level playing field. Highly unlikely, aint it?

[Sandy MacNab]

can you name one other province that has received $257B over 50 years and provides more social services than others?

Their champagne standard of living and politically correct "green" environment paid for by the sweat of others. Reminds me of the feudal system.

[Accountability Now]

Put more people in Alberta and voila!

They would have been at the same dollar amount. You guys that keep bitching about this arent too smart. Alberta has a few people in it, Quebec has a lot....do the math.

Toronto alone loses out on over $4B (that be Billions for you math challenged folks) to support the province and country.

But we dont whine like babies

I'm not sure I follow you here. Ontario has always had more people than Quebec and only very recently slipped into the 'have not' category which is most likely a temporary situation. I have also heard people say that maritimes provinces are always have nots because they don't have enough people.

Is there more to it than just population?

[guyser]

Of course not! Ontario and Quebec have had it their own way from well before Confederation.

Well yeah...geography had plenty to do with that. Cant be faulted for having water routes hence power (water power) and the like.

So blame the big bang for that.

Look at a map of Canada, figure out.,..hmm shall I go where there is no water ergo no access except on foot or should I explore via canoe on the rivers and lakes. Hmm....fish galore,drinkable water, temperate climate inducive to growing the crops from over home....or eat buffalo every day? (sarcasm but not far from the truth)

You keep reminding us how much you have "given" to the ROC (that is really a whine per se) but keep forgetting that Canada's economic system has always made sure the ROC bought most goods and services from Central Canada.

Actually I dont remind you much at all, unless as a counter to silly whining.

The goods and services you bought from the east was because there was SFA out there to supply it.

Really...this is a point you want to debate about? Sheesh.

By the way, most people/companies wanting money still come to Toronto. Do you wonder why?

Ergo, your prosperity, our poverty. Now that the West is wealthy, we "owe" you. Frankly, Western Canada owes Central Canada SFA! YOU still owe US a poltical system that provides each province a level playing field. Highly unlikely, aint it?

Your poverty was a problem, no doubt about that, but there was money to be had to help through the lean times, most of it coming from ONt and Que. Its called a country and those in power in Ottawa were happy to share...even though some of them did make the west jump thru hoops like a trained seal. Dont blame me...I wasnt born yet.

You have a level playing field, you have a political system too! Hell, we even gave you Stephen Harper and you love him! He has been good for the west, and yes,with that came a bigger voice.

The whole of Alberta has less pop than Toronto and the GTA. If you want to talk about losers in taxes paid and monies returned , then you best have a seat and wait your turn cuz ya aint got an argument in there comparable.

[guyser]

Is there more to it than just population?

I imagine there is but not sure I can tell you what . I will leave that to the more knowledgeable posters to run that on through.

The population point I was trying to make is thus....posters here are being too cute by half when using a dollar amount to discuss the transfer payment system. So in essence, had Alberta been as large as Quebec, then they too would have recd far more based on the funding formula.

Look at it this way. The Calgary school board has a budget of 500,000 M dollars. (all numbers made up)

Red Deer school budget is paltry in comparison....due to ?

Funding formula.

Now should Red Deer bitch because Calgary has more cash for school?

[Accountability Now]

I imagine there is but not sure I can tell you what . I will leave that to the more knowledgeable posters to run that on through.

The population point I was trying to make is thus....posters here are being too cute by half when using a dollar amount to discuss the transfer payment system. So in essence, had Alberta been as large as Quebec, then they too would have recd far more based on the funding formula.

Look at it this way. The Calgary school board has a budget of 500,000 M dollars. (all numbers made up)

Red Deer school budget is paltry in comparison....due to ?

Funding formula.

Now should Red Deer bitch because Calgary has more cash for school?

I see what you are trying to say but I don't agree with you. I understand that a province like Quebec will need more because it has more people but then how do you explain why it gets so much more than Ontario with 5.5 million people more than Quebec? Normally Ontario does not receive the payments but this year it will recieve 3.2 billion where as Quebec will recieve 7.8 billion (http://www.fin.gc.ca/fedprov/eqp-eng.asp).

So looking at your analogy it acutally flips the roles around. Quebec becomes Red Deer and Ontario becomes Calgary....yet Red Deer is getting more 'cash for their schools' as the analogy goes? I'm not going to say that Albertan's should or shouldn't bitch but I would if I was from Ontario....again...assuiming your point of more money for population is correct.

I am intrigued about your comment regarding Tortonto giving up $4B. Is that to other munciipalities in Ontario? I'm curious to learn more on this....do you have any cites you forward.

[guyser]

I see what you are trying to say but I don't agree with you.

The fundign formula takes into account the financials of the province.

Ont is in better shape than Que so there isnt much (per person) going to it as the latter.

My analogy has a flaw that you exposed.

[Accountability Now]

The fundign formula takes into account the financials of the province.

Ont is in better shape than Que so there isnt much (per person) going to it as the latter.

My analogy has a flaw that you exposed.

So I guess the question is why is Ontario in better shape than Quebec. Did the people make it that way or is it just luck? I think the dissention I see on this board is that most people view Quebec as having the ability to be in better shape but chosing not to. Do you agree with that?

The reality is that Newfoundland was a yearly have not province until recently so it shows that it can change with the right adjustments. A change will someday send Alberta back into the have not category if the oil game subsides....unless they are able to develop some other revenue source.

[guyser]

So I guess the question is why is Ontario in better shape than Quebec.

Good question, doubt I can accurately answer that question.

I know some of it is due to the head office flight, along with many smart men and women when the PQ's got elected. Montreal used to be the financial head of Canada, but that evaporated rather quickly.

I believe Quebec always has to be different, even when it makes sense not to. Ever seen a contest of any kind advertised in any other province, virtually guaratee you it says VOID IN QUEBEC. Now why would that be, they dont want free shite like the rest of us? Nope, they just want to be special.

So in some part when the brains flee, you are left with the not so bright, although that is not to say they are dumb people.

Factor in the idea that all decisions must come thru the filter of French first then you have a recipe for disaster.

So lots of little things, bad decisions and the like and voila...but again, better mind than mine can lay it out better than I.

Did the people make it that way or is it just luck? I think the dissention I see on this board is that most people view Quebec as having the ability to be in better shape but chosing not to. Do you agree with that?

I agree that they should be in better shape with all the resources thay have.

But i dont agree (entirely) that posters here view it that way. Some yes, plenty no. Many just want to bash Quebec and their thinly vieled words attest to that.

[Accountability Now]

But i dont agree (entirely) that posters here view it that way. Some yes, plenty no. Many just want to bash Quebec and their thinly vieled words attest to that.

I would agree with that.

[jacee]

Secondly, as has been pointed out long ago in this thread, the issue is sometimes not what Quebec gets, but their failure to acknowledge the benefits that they do receive.

Ofercrissakes! When did Alberta ever thank the rest of us for subsidizing the tar sands?

Simply slapping an "anti-Quebec bigot" label is just empty rhetoric.

Or simply the truth!

[Accountability Now]

Ofercrissakes! When did Alberta ever thank the rest of us for subsidizing the tar sands?

Or simply the truth!

Citation request. How much does the Feds subsidize the oil sands?

[jacee]

Citation request. How much does the Feds subsidize the oil sands?

Government subsidies to tar sands companies larger than Environment Canadas entire budget

Oil companies in Canada are getting a particularly sweet deal, as the subsidies that they were able to put a dollar figure to totalled over $2.8 billion in 2008 (and there were more subsidies that they couldnt quantify). Most of that came from the federal ($1.38 billion) and Alberta ($1.05 billion) governments, with the tar sands taking in the lions share ($1.59 billion) of this money.

[Accountability Now]

Government subsidies to tar sands companies larger than Environment Canadas entire budget

Oil companies in Canada are getting a particularly sweet deal, as the subsidies that they were able to put a dollar figure to totalled over $2.8 billion in 2008 (and there were more subsidies that they couldnt quantify). Most of that came from the federal ($1.38 billion) and Alberta ($1.05 billion) governments, with the tar sands taking in the lions share ($1.59 billion) of this money.

Oil companies in CANADA....are you able to differentiate how many of those are in Alberta. You know that oil companies are in other provinces too.

Let's assume the 1.38 billion went directly to the Alberta oil companies, then I need to ask how many billions the government gets back?

[jacee]

Oil companies in CANADA....are you able to differentiate how many of those are in Alberta. You know that oil companies are in other provinces too.

You could read the title, or read the article, or the original report linked in the article.

Let's assume the 1.38 billion went directly to the Alberta oil companies, then I need to ask how many billions the government gets back?

Less than we would if we weren't subsidizing them.

And why are we subsidizing one of the most profitable industries in the country?

It's not because they need it.

A political pork barrel perhaps?

[Accountability Now]

You could read the title, or read the article, or the original report linked in the article.

The title doesn't say how much money came from the Feds to Alberta companies.

The article says the Feds kicked in 1.38 billion to ALL provinces. It also says the Alberta government kicked in 1.05 billion of its own but that's not Federal money so why worry about that. Of the total subsidies, the tar sands got 1.59 billion....of course its very plausible most if not all of that came from the 1.05 that Alberta kicked in. So really the tar sands got 540 million from the Feds. The Alberta goverment is expected to receive 1.2 Trillion in royalties over the next 35 years. (http://www.huffingtonpost.ca/2012/03/27/alberta-oil-sands-royalties-ceri_n_1382640.html) which of course easily keeps the provinces hand out of the equalization payment. And I trust the Feds will be seeing a fair share from corporate taxes so really....is $540 million that much?

The linked report actually takes it a step further by breaking out the numbers a bit more but it never actaully shows what money the Feds give directly to Alberta. The numbers they use in the report are significantly less than the 1.59 billion cited above as they explain a number of items have been phased out or will be phased out soon. As such the number they have in the report is 861 million of which they state that 100 million goes directly to an Atlantic Canada initiative. Of the remaining 761 million, it is unclear however assumed that Alberta would take up a fair share but again...not all. Perhaps the $500 million mark stated above is in line.

So....to answer your question of when did Alberta ever say thank you for the subsidies? It doesn't have to as the money gets paid back every year...and more. The ROC is thanked every year with a fat pay cheque.

Less than we would if we weren't subsidizing them.

And why are we subsidizing one of the most profitable industries in the country?

It's not because they need it.

A political pork barrel perhaps?

Its clear that you are not so much against subsides to a given province but rather subsidies to oil companies regardless of where they are. However since you asked I will try to answer. Why are we subsidizing one of the most profitable industries in country? Subsidies are often investments which provide a significant return on investment. I'm no economist but it should be obvious that the money invested gives a huge return on investment which all Canadians benefit from.

Now...would that money come from the oil companies regardless of the subsidy? In my opinion no. Do you remember back in 2009 when Tim Hortons (you know...our beloved Canadian company) actually moved BACK to Canada. That's right....it had incorporated in the US because Canada was taxing it too much. Once Canada lowered its tax rates, it moved back. These large companies will not sit idly by and take what ever the government gives them and oil companies are no exception. Do you know how many upgrader projects have been started, then stopped, then started and then stopped in Alberta just because the companies get scared off from politicians trying to push their weight.

I hear what you are saying. In theory these rich companies should be able to subsidize themselves but thats not the way business works. They will take their money to the lowest bidder that has oil. Maybe one day all the other oil will run out and they are stuck with us but that same day will also have many other green alternatives. So in the mean time we have to play ball.

[Social Justice]

The next government of Alberta needs to begin to set things right for the people of Alberta. Investment in Alberta is such a big deal that the Alberta Heritage Trust Fund needs to be resurrected to deal with the issue. Between the financial arm of the provincial government, ATB Financial and the AHTF the means are available to invest in Alberta in the name of the people with the money of the people for the benefit of the people.

Alberta has no debt and it owns its own bank. What else could any citizen ever want more for their province? We have it all, but we don't use it and that is a disgrace.

[jacee]

If companies are awash in money and sitting on it as we keep hearing, they don't need ours.

That money would go a long way eg toward closing the gap in education funding between First Nations and all other Canadian children.

Edited August 12, 2013 by jacee