PIK Posted August 28, 2012 Report Posted August 28, 2012 OTTAWA — The Liberal leadership in the Senate allowed a veteran senator to vote on legislation and spend public dollars for four months after she was diagnosed with dementia and declared legally incompetent. Sen. Joyce Fairbairn regularly attended Senate sittings and voted along party lines before the Upper Chamber rose for the summer at the end of June. Fairbairn was diagnosed with dementia of the Alzheimer’s type by her geriatric psychiatrist in February, according to a letter sent to Senate officials by her niece, Patricia McCullagh. http://news.nationalpost.com/2012/08/27/joyce-fairbairn/ And what was voted on during those 4 months? Quote Toronto, like a roach motel in the middle of a pretty living room.
Wild Bill Posted August 28, 2012 Report Posted August 28, 2012 OTTAWA — The Liberal leadership in the Senate allowed a veteran senator to vote on legislation and spend public dollars for four months after she was diagnosed with dementia and declared legally incompetent. Sen. Joyce Fairbairn regularly attended Senate sittings and voted along party lines before the Upper Chamber rose for the summer at the end of June. Fairbairn was diagnosed with dementia of the Alzheimer’s type by her geriatric psychiatrist in February, according to a letter sent to Senate officials by her niece, Patricia McCullagh. http://news.nationalpost.com/2012/08/27/joyce-fairbairn/ And what was voted on during those 4 months? Well Pik, my first question is, how did anyone know the poor dear had dementia? Senators always vote along party lines, just like MPs. Especially Liberals, who held a visceral hatred of Reform and its firm commitment to having an MP vote his or her constituents' wishes first and those of the party second. If she had been of sound mind I have no doubt she still would have voted like a trained seal. So how have we been injured with a result out of the ordinary? Quote "A government which robs Peter to pay Paul can always depend on the support of Paul." -- George Bernard Shaw "There is no point in being difficult when, with a little extra effort, you can be completely impossible."
punked Posted August 28, 2012 Report Posted August 28, 2012 More reason to get rid of the Senate. Gee looks like the NDP have been right all along waste of our money. Quote
PIK Posted August 28, 2012 Author Report Posted August 28, 2012 Well Pik, my first question is, how did anyone know the poor dear had dementia? Senators always vote along party lines, just like MPs. Especially Liberals, who held a visceral hatred of Reform and its firm commitment to having an MP vote his or her constituents' wishes first and those of the party second. If she had been of sound mind I have no doubt she still would have voted like a trained seal. So how have we been injured with a result out of the ordinary? We don't know that do we? The sad part is the party using this poor women, when she should not have been going to thses votes. I understand she was one of the most respected senators we had and to drag her around to these votes is pathetic and for what, to keep another con from filling her spot? We need this to be investigated and who know what and when. Heads must roll. Quote Toronto, like a roach motel in the middle of a pretty living room.
TheNewTeddy Posted August 28, 2012 Report Posted August 28, 2012 I'm surprised nobody has made any jokes yet Quote Feel free to contact me outside the forums. Add "TheNewTeddy" to Twitter, Facebook, or Hotmail to reach me!
Wild Bill Posted August 28, 2012 Report Posted August 28, 2012 More reason to get rid of the Senate. Gee looks like the NDP have been right all along waste of our money. One way or the other, eh? Nothing in between? How about reforming the Senate? Seems to me that abolishing it would be missing an opportunity to have more citizen input into our political process. I guess, if you love top down bureaucracy, it sounds like a great idea to abolish it! Quote "A government which robs Peter to pay Paul can always depend on the support of Paul." -- George Bernard Shaw "There is no point in being difficult when, with a little extra effort, you can be completely impossible."
punked Posted August 28, 2012 Report Posted August 28, 2012 One way or the other, eh? Nothing in between? How about reforming the Senate? Seems to me that abolishing it would be missing an opportunity to have more citizen input into our political process. I guess, if you love top down bureaucracy, it sounds like a great idea to abolish it! No an elected Senate would hurt our Federation. You think it is hard for Alberta to build a pipeline now, or Newfoundland to exports its energy now just wait till this is the break down of our elected upper house. British Columbia 6 Alberta 6 Ontario 24 Quebec 24 Manitoba 6 Saskatchewan 6 Nova Scotia 10 Newfoundland and Labrador 6 New Brunswick 10 Northwest Territories 1 Prince Edward Island 4 Yukon 1 Nunavut 1 Look at that the Martimes that have little of the countries population have a third of the seats. Not to mention the West has almost no seats. The only reason it has worked for this long is because it was just a place to give a job to your parties most loyal members. So they never slowed down anything a government of representation by population passed. Wait till they do. You think Quebec is bad just wait until a minority of the country is given the majority voice. We would be trading a smaller problem for a bigger one. The best idea is to get rid of them. Quote
Redemption Posted August 28, 2012 Report Posted August 28, 2012 (edited) post removed by Redemption Edited August 28, 2012 by Redemption Quote
PIK Posted August 28, 2012 Author Report Posted August 28, 2012 (edited) ... Edited August 29, 2012 by PIK Quote Toronto, like a roach motel in the middle of a pretty living room.
punked Posted August 28, 2012 Report Posted August 28, 2012 I am dealing with elderly parents and dementia, and I would find dragging them out of their home, (which they feel safe in) for a vote or whatever is abuse and your whole post stinks of it. Your response is disgusting. You do know she has been a Senator for 25 years right? I am sure she feels very safe in the Senate chambers where she spent the majority of her last 25 years with mostly the same people that have been around her because that is how the Senate works. Its for life. Quote
PIK Posted August 28, 2012 Author Report Posted August 28, 2012 You do know she has been a Senator for 25 years right? I am sure she feels very safe in the Senate chambers where she spent the majority of her last 25 years with mostly the same people that have been around her because that is how the Senate works. Its for life. And having a aide that you probably don't know anymore taking you out, sorry,you better stop digging that hole is getting deep. I have a understanding youy have no idea about dementia, niether did I untill a couple of years ago and I am learning alot. We need to find a way to treat this. Quote Toronto, like a roach motel in the middle of a pretty living room.
Redemption Posted August 28, 2012 Report Posted August 28, 2012 I am dealing with elderly parents and dementia, and I would find dragging them out of their home, (which they feel safe in) for a vote or whatever is abuse and your whole post stinks of it. Your response is disgusting. Pik...I am deleting my post out of respect for you and your parents and others with this terrible disease...I was directing anger to the incompetent government that attacks the most vulnerable on a regular basis. Quote
punked Posted August 28, 2012 Report Posted August 28, 2012 And having a aide that you probably don't know anymore taking you out, sorry,you better stop digging that hole is getting deep. I have a understanding youy have no idea about dementia, niether did I untill a couple of years ago and I am learning alot. We need to find a way to treat this. You have no idea how she got to the Senate so how about you stop making things up for once. BTW my mothers is suffering from Alzheimer's so please keep your righteous indignation to yourself please. Quote
PIK Posted August 28, 2012 Author Report Posted August 28, 2012 (edited) You have no idea how she got to the Senate so how about you stop making things up for once. BTW my mothers is suffering from Alzheimer's so please keep your righteous indignation to yourself please. It was reported that her aide pick her up. You are losing this one big time, what was done was wrong.So if you are telling the truth about your mom, you would have no problem her be used? Edited August 28, 2012 by PIK Quote Toronto, like a roach motel in the middle of a pretty living room.
punked Posted August 28, 2012 Report Posted August 28, 2012 (edited) It was reported that her aide pick her up. You are losing this one big time, what was done was wrong.So if you are telling the truth about your mom, you would have no problem her be used? If my mother worked for 25 years as a Senator, loved her job, woke up in the morning ready to go to the Senate and that is what she lived for, I would have a hard ripping that away from her until I absolutely had to. This argument has been had over and over again. I am sorry about your parents and it is hard on my Dad but he didn't lock my mother just because she has Alzheimer. We have already started planning for the next stage but for now they are happy it is hard but until that next stage comes Routine is what is best for her. Even her doctors say that no sudden changes but everyone has to pitch in. http://www.usatoday.com/money/jobcenter/workplace/kay/story/2011-09-19/working-with-alzheimers-is-possible-healthy/50458898/1 Look I hate to defend the Liberals. This however is more about Joyce Fairbairn then the Liberal or Conservative party. They don't need her there, she needed the Senate I am sure then it needed her at this tough moment in life. Maybe her family needed to make those preparations for the next stage sooner and maybe she should not have been voting but I am not going to jump on this one to attack the Liberals. This is someones life. Edited August 28, 2012 by punked Quote
PIK Posted August 28, 2012 Author Report Posted August 28, 2012 If my mother worked for 25 years as a Senator, loved her job, woke up in the morning ready to go to the Senate and that is what she lived for, I would have a hard ripping that away from her until I absolutely had to. This argument has been had over and over again. I am sorry about your parents and it is hard on my Dad but he didn't lock my mother just because she has Alzheimer. We have already started planning for the next stage but for now they are happy it is hard but until that next stage comes Routine is what is best for her. Even her doctors say that no sudden changes but everyone has to pitch in. http://www.usatoday.com/money/jobcenter/workplace/kay/story/2011-09-19/working-with-alzheimers-is-possible-healthy/50458898/1 Look I hate to defend the Liberals. This however is more about Joyce Fairbairn then the Liberal or Conservative party. They don't need her there, she needed the Senate I am sure then it needed her at this tough moment in life. Maybe her family needed to make those preparations for the next stage sooner and maybe she should not have been voting but I am not going to jump on this one to attack the Liberals. This is someones life. Lets agree to disagree and be happy that ethemnike has not found this thread yet. Quote Toronto, like a roach motel in the middle of a pretty living room.
Wild Bill Posted August 28, 2012 Report Posted August 28, 2012 No an elected Senate would hurt our Federation. You think it is hard for Alberta to build a pipeline now, or Newfoundland to exports its energy now just wait till this is the break down of our elected upper house. British Columbia 6 Alberta 6 Ontario 24 Quebec 24 Manitoba 6 Saskatchewan 6 Nova Scotia 10 Newfoundland and Labrador 6 New Brunswick 10 Northwest Territories 1 Prince Edward Island 4 Yukon 1 Nunavut 1 Look at that the Martimes that have little of the countries population have a third of the seats. Not to mention the West has almost no seats. The only reason it has worked for this long is because it was just a place to give a job to your parties most loyal members. So they never slowed down anything a government of representation by population passed. Wait till they do. You think Quebec is bad just wait until a minority of the country is given the majority voice. We would be trading a smaller problem for a bigger one. The best idea is to get rid of them. Sorry punked. It's been so long since we've debated the Senate that maybe you younger guys are new to the topic! The Reform party thrashed all this out over 25 years ago, calling for a Triple E Senate. This means Equal, Elected and Effective. Every other parliamentary in the free world that has an Upper House structures it differently than is other House. The Commons is "rep by pop" which means states or provinces with more people tend to have more seats and more power. The Senate, or Upper House, runs on "rep by region" where Rhode Island has as many Senators as California or New York. This is a deliberate attempt to have a check and balance government. Smaller regions would have the power to block anything unfair to them being rammed through by regions of larger population power in the lower House. It seems to work reasonably well for everybody else in the world. That was also how we started out in Canada, similar to the British House of Lords. Of course, being Canadian we had to screw it up! Each province does NOT get the same number of Senators! The Senate also can't do much but obstruct legislation from the Lower House, usually for partisan reasons. If the Senate was Triple E it would go a long way to making Canadians in smaller provinces feel more equal. If you live in PEI you have a totally different attitude towards Ottawa than someone in Ontario. The scenario you describe would be truly pointless. You would simply be duplicating the Commons, which of course would be of no value. Quote "A government which robs Peter to pay Paul can always depend on the support of Paul." -- George Bernard Shaw "There is no point in being difficult when, with a little extra effort, you can be completely impossible."
Argus Posted August 28, 2012 Report Posted August 28, 2012 (edited) Pik...I am deleting my post out of respect for you and your parents and others with this terrible disease...I was directing anger to the incompetent government that attacks the most vulnerable on a regular basis. It's not incompetent, at least, no less competent than any other government I've experienced, and better than most. And it doesn't usually 'attack' anyone but idiots. Edited August 28, 2012 by Argus Quote "A liberal is someone who claims to be open to all points of view — and then is surprised and offended to find there are other points of view.” William F Buckley
punked Posted August 28, 2012 Report Posted August 28, 2012 Sorry punked. It's been so long since we've debated the Senate that maybe you younger guys are new to the topic! The Reform party thrashed all this out over 25 years ago, calling for a Triple E Senate. This means Equal, Elected and Effective. Every other parliamentary in the free world that has an Upper House structures it differently than is other House. The Commons is "rep by pop" which means states or provinces with more people tend to have more seats and more power. The Senate, or Upper House, runs on "rep by region" where Rhode Island has as many Senators as California or New York. This is a deliberate attempt to have a check and balance government. Smaller regions would have the power to block anything unfair to them being rammed through by regions of larger population power in the lower House. It seems to work reasonably well for everybody else in the world. That was also how we started out in Canada, similar to the British House of Lords. Of course, being Canadian we had to screw it up! Each province does NOT get the same number of Senators! The Senate also can't do much but obstruct legislation from the Lower House, usually for partisan reasons. If the Senate was Triple E it would go a long way to making Canadians in smaller provinces feel more equal. If you live in PEI you have a totally different attitude towards Ottawa than someone in Ontario. The scenario you describe would be truly pointless. You would simply be duplicating the Commons, which of course would be of no value. Yah thanks but no thanks. I don't want Canada be run like the US nothing ever changes down there, and that is great when policy is good but when it is bad all the upper house does is either get in the way or ransom their their votes. "Sure I will vote for you to save our country you just need to spend 10 Billion dollars on putting a base in Goosebay who cares if it is a good idea." Thanks but no thanks. My party has fought and debated over this one to. Know what conclusion we came to? The west wants in, time to get rid of the Senate. If you make it Elected you are asking for a whole world of hurt I promise you that. Quote
TheNewTeddy Posted August 28, 2012 Report Posted August 28, 2012 I'm going to start a topic just about senate reform, and quote the above, as this really deserves it's own discussion - and, it's been a pet project of mine for over a dozen years; and I'm only 28! Quote Feel free to contact me outside the forums. Add "TheNewTeddy" to Twitter, Facebook, or Hotmail to reach me!
madmax Posted August 28, 2012 Report Posted August 28, 2012 (edited) There have been many incidents of Alzheimers in both the Upper Chamber and the Lower Chamber since confederation. Some became public most never do. Some of the interesting insider stuff, which I care not to divulge as someone would suggest I was being a partisan hack.....but there was an MPP who had been Diagnosed with Alzeimers, and was elected for 3 more terms, as the public continued to support him and few were aware of the situation. Fact is, this person voted and supported party lines and rarely made speeches..... Edited August 28, 2012 by madmax Quote
WWWTT Posted August 28, 2012 Report Posted August 28, 2012 Thanks but no thanks. My party has fought and debated over this one to. Know what conclusion we came to? The west wants in, time to get rid of the Senate. If you make it Elected you are asking for a whole world of hurt I promise you that. Yep pretty much it. Using the US as a role model is a recipe for disaster! But getting rid of the senate would be a lot more work than what you are leading on. WWWTT Quote Maple Leaf Web is now worth $720.00! Down over $1,500 in less than one year! Total fail of the moderation on this site! That reminds me, never ask Greg to be a business partner! NEVER!
dre Posted August 28, 2012 Report Posted August 28, 2012 Legal dementia is a huge step up for most of our politicians. Quote I question things because I am human. And call no one my father who's no closer than a stranger
Smallc Posted August 29, 2012 Report Posted August 29, 2012 Both punked and Wild Bill keep talking about how things work other places. The thing is though, overall, they work here...better than most places. Should we really mess with things to make it "better"? Quote
capricorn Posted August 29, 2012 Report Posted August 29, 2012 Should we really mess with things to make it "better"? The only messing I want done with the Senate is to put a stop to patronage appointments and have elected Senators. Quote "We always want the best man to win an election. Unfortunately, he never runs." Will Rogers
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