Neil Armstrong Dead at 82

[Wilber]

Neil Armstrong

I will never forget sitting glued to a black and white TV for a full afternoon and a good part of the evening watching this happen live with about ten other people. I feel I was a lucky man to have witnessed it.

[Guest American Woman]

Neil Armstrong

I will never forget sitting glued to a black and white TV for a full afternoon and a good part of the evening watching this happen live with about ten other people. I feel I was a lucky man to have witnessed it.

I still get the feeling of awe that I felt at the time whenever I hear his words - "one small step for a man, one giant leap for mankind" - replayed.

[kimmy]

The Soviets also had brave men who were willing to risk their lives in the void of space in rickety pieces of tin.

What the Soviets didn't have, that the Americans did, was the technical expertise to go one step farther. It's really America's scientists and engineers that won the space race, but they aren't famous and won't get state funerals. Just a thought.

Another thought: the United States spent more money on the 2008 bailouts than it has spent on NASA during the entire history of NASA.

-k

[Guest American Woman]

The Soviets also had brave men who were willing to risk their lives in the void of space in rickety pieces of tin.

What the Soviets didn't have, that the Americans did, was the technical expertise to go one step farther. It's really America's scientists and engineers that won the space race, but they aren't famous and won't get state funerals. Just a thought.

Another thought: the United States spent more money on the 2008 bailouts than it has spent on NASA during the entire history of NASA.

What a touching tribute to Neil Armstrong in recognition of his momentous accomplishment.

[kimmy]

What a touching tribute to Neil Armstrong in recognition of his momentous accomplishment.

Calling it "his" momentous accomplishment is ridiculous.

-k

[Guest American Woman]

Calling it "his" momentous accomplishment is ridiculous.

Not recognizing that being the first man to walk on the moon was his momentous moment is what's ridiculous. Furthermore, if he's getting a state funeral, you know something that the rest of us don't know.

At any rate, Armstrong was about as modest as they come, and that alone is worth recognizing in his memory. Upon their return from the moon mission, presidents, prime ministers, kings, et al applauded their mission and wanted to meet him/them. Not very many people would stay so unassuming under such circumstances.

As a side note - Your tribute to the "brave Soviets" - which was more touching than anything you had to say about Armstrong - almost makes it sound as if you resent the U.S. getting to the moon before the U.S. - and FYI, what the Americans had that the Soviets didn't have - "the technical expertise to go one step farther" - was a biggie. It's what made this mission possible.

Edited August 26, 2012 by American Woman

[kimmy]

Not recognizing that being the first man to walk on the moon was his momentous moment is what's ridiculous.

You just changed it from "his momentous accomplishment" to "his momentous moment".

I definitely agree that it was his momentous moment... but it wasn't his accomplishment.

As a side note - Your tribute to the "brave Soviets" - which was more touching than anything you had to say about Armstrong - almost makes it sound as if you resent the U.S. getting to the moon before the U.S.

That's your hypersensitivity talking. I'm not sure why you need to look for anti-Americanism in everything. I don't resent America getting to the moon first, because if the United States hadn't done it, it could well be that nobody would have gotten there.

My point is that Neil Armstrong was not any braver or better than Yuri Gagarin (or Buzz Aldrin or Michael Collins or John Glenn or any of the other pioneers of space flight.) Who were all indisputably brave, for the record.

My point is that the difference between Armstrong and his Soviet counterparts is that Neil Armstrong was on a better team. The Soviet space program couldn't have put Neil Armstrong on the moon. NASA could have put Laika the Space Dog on the moon.

- and FYI, what the Americans had that the Soviets didn't have - "the technical expertise to go one step farther" - was a biggie. It's what made this mission possible.

Yes, that was my point.

-k

[Guest American Woman]

You just changed it from "his momentous accomplishment" to "his momentous moment".

I definitely agree that it was his momentous moment... but it wasn't his accomplishment.

I see them as one and the same regarding his walk on the moon. Walking on the moon was his accomplishment. He, personally, is the one who did it. To not recognize that is, to use your term again, ridiculous.

That's your hypersensitivity talking.

Oh, really? You're on that bandwagon now? You've got great company.

I'm not sure why you need to look for anti-Americanism in everything. I don't resent America getting to the moon first, because if the United States hadn't done it, it could well be that nobody would have gotten there.

Did I say it was anti-Americanism? That's your hypersensitivity talking.

My point is that Neil Armstrong was not any braver or better than Yuri Gagarin (or Buzz Aldrin or Michael Collins or John Glenn or any of the other pioneers of space flight.) Who were all indisputably brave, for the record.

Good grief. Did anyone say that he was braver or better? No, they did not. They spoke of his accomplishment; his "moment" if that makes you feel better.

When a person such as Armstrong dies, generally one doesn't feel the need to mention everyone under the sun who was also indisputably brave, also great, also accomplished in one way or another. The fact that you feel such a need regarding Armstrong is rather - different. We'll leave it at that.

My point is that the difference between Armstrong and his Soviet counterparts is that Neil Armstrong was on a better team. The Soviet space program couldn't have put Neil Armstrong on the moon. NASA could have put Laika the Space Dog on the moon.

Really? You think a dog could have led the space team the way Armstrong did?

Yes, that was my point.

An obvious point ( ) that hardly needed to be made, much less on this occasion. For so many reasons.

Edited August 26, 2012 by American Woman

[kimmy]

An obvious point ( ) that hardly needed to be made, much less on this occasion. For so many reasons.

I'm not sure it's an obvious point, and I did think it needed to be made.

In the midst of all this hero-worship of Armstrong and talk of Apollo 11 as "Armstrong's historic achievement", it seems as if a lot of people don't recognize that it was a team of scientists and engineers that made it possible. There seems to be very little mention of anything other than how awesome and inspiring it was to watch Neil Armstrong on TV.

And while people reflect on "awesome and inspiring" things, it seems like a good time to mention that we could do awesome and inspiring things today too, if we weren't spending our money on wars and bailouts.

And also a good time to mention that we're making it much harder for people to go to university to learn the skills that make awesome and inspiring things possible.

Neil deGrasse Tyson on funding NASA:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7i2QDpGRQKc

-k

[Guest American Woman]

double post

Edited August 26, 2012 by American Woman

[Guest American Woman]

I'm not sure it's an obvious point, and I did think it needed to be made.

'Someone else would have done it first if only they had had the technology to do it' is a pretty obvious point, IMO. That you think it needed to be said in a thread honoring Neil Armstrong upon his death is what I found ... different.

I can't help but notice, for example, that no one pointed out that 'many other people were working on developing computers at the same time Jobs was, and if only they had had the technology, they would have done it first' when he died - pointing out that there are other smart, intelligent, tech-minded people in the world, of course.

In the midst of all this hero-worship of Armstrong

This is a thread about "Neil Armstrong Dead at 82 - A man who truly lived by his deeds, not words" - which is quite true. If there's been any "hero worshiping" in it, it's not visible on my computer screen.

...and talk of Apollo 11 as "Armstrong's historic achievement", it seems as if a lot of people don't recognize that it was a team of scientists and engineers that made it possible. There seems to be very little mention of anything other than how awesome and inspiring it was to watch Neil Armstrong on TV.

Perhaps because he's the one who died? - and it WAS awesome watching him on the screen?

And here's a fact - they didn't pick Armstrong off the street, put a space suit on him, and send him to the moon. It took a helluva lot of training and knowledge, and yes, bravery, on his part. To dismiss that is rather, to use your word, ridiculous.

And while people reflect on "awesome and inspiring" things, it seems like a good time to mention that we could do awesome and inspiring things today too, if we weren't spending our money on wars and bailouts.

I believe they were reflecting on Armstrong, in his memory. Because he died.

And also a good time to mention that we're making it much harder for people to go to university to learn the skills that make awesome and inspiring things possible.

The perfect time. Of course. Why say anything at all about Armstrong upon his death, eh? It's the perfect time to reflect on everything and everyone else, apparently.

Edited August 26, 2012 by American Woman

[Wilber]

Armstrong was an exceptional man in an exceptional occupation. In addition to his test pilot history which included flying the X-15 to the edge of space, twice he saved spacecraft from disaster with his own skill and initiative.

He might possibly have been the best pilot in the space program but he considered himself an engineer first.

"I am, and ever will be, a white socks, pocket protector, nerdy engineer and I take a substantial amount of pride in the accomplishments of my profession."

[Wilber]

My point is that the difference between Armstrong and his Soviet counterparts is that Neil Armstrong was on a better team. The Soviet space program couldn't have put Neil Armstrong on the moon. NASA could have put Laika the Space Dog on the moon.

Kimmy, Armstrong and Aldrin left a satchel containing commemorative medals of Gagarin and Komarov on the moon. They were very aware of their accomplishments and considered them more brothers than opponents.

BTW, Laika the Space Dog was trying to run the lander into the side of a crater when Armstrong took control and landed it safely with 40 seconds of fuel to spare.

[kimmy]

'Someone else would have done it first if only they had had the technology to do it' is a pretty obvious point, IMO.

That wasn't really the point at all. The point was that Neil wasn't the one who "did it"; it was a massive team effort of which Armstrong was an easily replaceable part.

That you think it needed to be said in a thread honoring Neil Armstrong upon his death is what I found ... different.

As celebrity astronauts don't die that often, I'm not sure there's really an established standard of "normal".

Sally Ride also died recently; it went more or less unnoticed except for some brief controversy relating to her long-time relationship with another woman.

I can't help but notice, for example, that no one pointed out that 'many other people were working on developing computers at the same time Jobs was, and if only they had had the technology, they would have done it first' when he died - pointing out that there are other smart, intelligent, tech-minded people in the world, of course.

I think that using Steve Jobs as an analog to Neil Armstrong is incredibly flawed.

If Armstrong had gotten terribly sick the day before the mission, NASA could have replaced him with an equally competent back-up pilot and the mission would have gone ahead as planned without him.

If Steve Jobs had died 5 or 10 years sooner, the direction of the technology industry would probably be quite different. "If somebody else had the technology they would have done it first" isn't an idea that can be applied to what Jobs did, because Jobs' competitors already had the technology. Jobs' role in shaping the technology of today wasn't in inventing technology nobody else had thought of, it was in coming up with new ways of using it.

This is a thread about "Neil Armstrong Dead at 82 - A man who truly lived by his deeds, not words" - which is quite true. If there's been any "hero worshiping" in it, it's not visible on my computer screen.

That's not a criticism of you and Wilber specifically, it's a general reaction to the outpouring of headlines over the past day or so, which to me do indeed smack of hero-worship.

Perhaps because he's the one who died? - and it WAS awesome watching him on the screen?

And here's a fact - they didn't pick Armstrong off the street, put a space suit on him, and send him to the moon. It took a helluva lot of training and knowledge, and yes, bravery, on his part. To dismiss that is rather, to use your word, ridiculous.

I don't dismiss any of that.

I believe they were reflecting on Armstrong, in his memory. Because he died.

The perfect time. Of course. Why say anything at all about Armstrong upon his death, eh? It's the perfect time to reflect on everything and everyone else, apparently.

Armstrong isn't famous for being a nice guy, or being humble, or for being a man of few words, or a good family man, or a guy who took his slide-rule and pocket protector to work just like everybody else, although all of those things might be true.

Neil Armstrong is famous for one thing, and one thing only-- being the first man to set foot on the moon. And his death is an excellent time to talk about the state of the program that made it possible. Sorry if you feel it's disrespectful or inappropriate; I obviously disagree.

-k

[kimmy]

BTW, Laika the Space Dog was trying to run the lander into the side of a crater when Armstrong took control and landed it safely with 40 seconds of fuel to spare.

It's a good thing they didn't let Toonces the Space Cat drive!

-k

[kimmy]

Speaking of hero worship... Christians have been repeating the following verbatim, in large numbers:

RIP Neil Armstrong. He died at 3:03 PM. In the Bible, Genesis 3:03 reads, "God then created the moon to oppose the sun." #Believer

A couple of problems... first off, Armstrong's official time of death was 2:45, not 3:03.

And second, Genesis 3:3 doesn't even say that. Genesis 3:3 is the one where God tells Adam and Eve to stay out of that Jello tree.

#Dumbasses

-k

[Wilber]

Kimmy, I think you have to take these accomplishments in the context of the time they took place. These people were pioneers in every sense of the word. They really were going where no man had gone before.

People like Armstrong cut their teeth flying first generation subsonic jets in Korea. Ten years later he was in an X-15 at 207,000 feet traveling close to six times the speed of sound. Seven years after that he was setting foot on the moon.

Everything they did was a first and this was in an era without computers, simulators or even calculators. The first calculator I saw was bought by an engineer friend of mine in the mid seventies. It was a great honkin Texas Instruments rig that did arithmetic, had a few higher math functions and in todays dollars cost the equivalent of two Mac Book Pro's. They used real slide rules, pencils and paper to design machines that were pushing and exceeding the boundaries of our knowledge and the only way to find out if they worked was to build and fly it. No simulators to practice on before doing the real deal. If it didn't work or killed the pilot (and they killed quite a few) it was back to the drawing board, a real drawing board. Your car radio probably has more computer power than the Apollo spacecraft.

[jbg]

Calling it "his" momentous accomplishment is ridiculous.

His leap was a giant one for mankind. Edited August 28, 2012 by jbg

[eyeball]

His leap was a giant one for mankind.

Except mankind tripped.