Hey Toronto has made International News.

[cybercoma]

I'm not a "gun supporter" But I don't think gun ownership should be illegal, I don't think that's an extreme opinion.

If the gun in the home of the person in community housing was legal and registered than that's fine.

And if it wasn't, it'll certainly be an aggravating factor when this goes to trial. That's why there needs to be judicial discretion. So they can tailor the sentences to the circumstances.

[cybercoma]

yeah but that's an american argument we aren't allowed to have concealed handguns here...

You don't read any articles from SUN do you? CCW and castle law are not just American arguments. There is a small portion of Canadians that think we should have it here too.

All I'm saying is that it's a bit over the top to think that simple possession is conspiracy to murder. Guns are used for intimidation without intent to murder. That's why there's a variety of different murder charges rather than just a single charge of murder.

[Boges]

So really, current gun laws aren't doing much to stopping the influx of illegal guns. It doesn't appear to be hard to get illegal firearms across the border.

Edited July 18, 2012 by Boges

[cybercoma]

So really, current gun laws aren't doing much to stopping the influx of illegal guns. It doesn't appear to be hard to get illegal firearms across the border.

There's probably a reason they're not getting stopped at the border. Just sayin.

[wyly]

Why would you give someone 20 years for possession? You don't think that's at all excessive for merely possessing a gun? You get life for first-degree murder. If that doesn't give people pause, what the hell is 20 years for possession going to do?

nope, their intent is to kill someone and nothing else, there no reason to have an illegal handgun other than murder...most murders are crimes of passion laws can't deter those...gang murders are generally premeditated, if stiff sentences don't prevent possession what I do care if the person goes to jail for 20, either way result is the same it gets rid of the guns or those who would use them...

The people that take pause follow the laws. Those that don't will never take pause. However, I don't believe in pre-emptive incarceration for thoughtcrimes.

conspiracy to commit murder is a serious thought crime and always will be...

[Boges]

There's probably a reason they're not getting stopped at the border. Just sayin.

Do you think they're running guns across the peace bridge? There are plenty of places to cross the border and not have to cross a bridge. How do you think they get the drugs in?

Edited July 18, 2012 by Boges

[Canuckistani]

Do you think they're running guns across the peace bridge? There are plenty of places to cross the border and not have to cross a bridge.

Akwesasne, cough cough.

[cybercoma]

Wyly, you're calling it conspiracy to commit murder and it just isn't. When someone conspires to murder they ought to be charged with it. Possessing a firearm that some other legislation deems illegal is not necessarily conspiracy to murder. Moreover, people commit murders with legal firearms, so why is one conspiracy to murder and the other isn't? I just don't think your idea would have the effect you're hoping for.

Edited July 18, 2012 by cybercoma

[wyly]

You don't read any articles from SUN do you? CCW and castle law are not just American arguments. There is a small portion of Canadians that think we should have it here too.

I wouldn't wipe my arse with the SUN

our handgun laws will never be like those in the US the political backlash for suggesting it would be huge...so lets not deflect to american viewpoints/laws on handguns...

All I'm saying is that it's a bit over the top to think that simple possession is conspiracy to murder. Guns are used for intimidation without intent to murder. That's why there's a variety of different murder charges rather than just a single charge of murder.

over the top or not illegal handguns are a problem, a problem that will not go away unless we have some very tough laws to deal with them...

[cybercoma]

Do you think they're running guns across the peace bridge? There are plenty of places to cross the border and not have to cross a bridge. How do you think they get the drugs in?

I think they do exactly that in many cases.

[cybercoma]

I wouldn't wipe my arse with the SUN

our handgun laws will never be like those in the US the political backlash for suggesting it would be huge...so lets not deflect to american viewpoints/laws on handguns...

I'm not deflecting. You're saying it's conspiracy to murder to carry a gun. I'm saying murder is not the only reason people carry guns. There's a considerable difference between being a drug dealer and needing to intimidate people, actually having the nerve to end someone's life.

over the top or not illegal handguns are a problem, a problem that will not go away unless we have some very tough laws to deal with them...

From the statistics, I'm just not seeing gun crime as a huge problem requiring immediate legislative action.

[wyly]

Wyly, you're calling it conspiracy to commit murder and it just isn't. When someone conspires to murder they ought to be charged with it. Possessing a firearm that some other legislation deems illegal is not necessarily conspiracy to murder. Moreover, people commit murders with legal firearms, so why is one conspiracy to murder and the other isn't? I just don't think your idea would have the effect you're hoping for.

someone who has a legal firearm has been approved for ownership, hunting and target shooting, collecting are not criminal activities...gangsters/criminals don't get such approval as their likelihood for using a handgun for a crime is very high...the laws wouldn't target legal owners only illegal possession, a criminal with an illegal handgun doesn't have any other intention but to use it on another person...

[cybercoma]

someone who has a legal firearm has been approved for ownership, hunting and target shooting, collecting are not criminal activities...gangsters/criminals don't get such approval as their likelihood for using a handgun for a crime is very high...the laws wouldn't target legal owners only illegal possession, a criminal with an illegal handgun doesn't have any other intention but to use it on another person...

Yes. I agree, but it doesn't necessarily mean they're going to use it to murder someone. That's what I'm saying.

[Boges]

I think they do exactly that in many cases.

Oh so the system does work then.

Edited July 18, 2012 by Boges

[Canuckistani]

It would be great if legislative action had an impact, but it probably wouldn't do much. The rush to legislation for identified problems seldom solves the problem. Just on the criminal system side, having more enforcement of current gun laws would do way more than toughening the laws with the same level of enforcement. Slowing down trade with the US so we could more thoroughly check for incoming weapons would do a lot too - but who can afford that.

[wyly]

I'm not deflecting. You're saying it's conspiracy to murder to carry a gun. I'm saying murder is not the only reason people carry guns. There's a considerable difference between being a drug dealer and needing to intimidate people, actually having the nerve to end someone's life.

I think our drug laws are stupid and are part of the problem but don't ask me to feel sorry for the poor dealer who losses his ability to threaten someone with a gun, I just don't care...threaten someone with an illegal handgun throw them in prison for 20...

From the statistics, I'm just not seeing gun crime as a huge problem requiring immediate legislative action.

handguns crimes were rare and now are becoming common, we've had 25 murders in one gang war in the last few years in calgary all with illegal handguns, it is a growing problem...we need to end the problem before it gets worse, continuing as we are has done nothing to stop it...

[Boges]

handguns crimes were rare and now are becoming common, we've had 25 murders in one gang war in the last few years in calgary all with illegal handguns, it is a growing problem...we need to end the problem before it gets worse, continuing as we are has done nothing to stop it...

You know the solution to that ban legal gun ownership.

[wyly]

Yes. I agree, but it doesn't necessarily mean they're going to use it to murder someone. That's what I'm saying.

handguns were never designed for hunting animals they really suck at that, they were meant for killing people at close range and nothing else...if someone has one illegally it's a safe assumption he/she is not a hunter/target shooter/or collector, they intend to use it on people and nothing else...you may say they may not intend to kill but when you point a gun at someone that is absolutely the message you send "I will kill you"...

[wyly]

You know the solution to that ban legal gun ownership.

and that will stop illegal possession how??? geez

[Boges]

and that will stop illegal possession how??? geez

It won't but in Toronto that's their plan of the Left-wing

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/story/2012/07/06/toronto-council-bullet-ban218.html

[Canuckistani]

handguns were never designed for hunting animals they really suck at that, they were meant for killing people at close range and nothing else...if someone has one illegally it's a safe assumption he/she is not a hunter/target shooter/or collector, they intend to use it on people and nothing else...you may say they may not intend to kill but when you point a gun at someone that is absolutely the message you send "I will kill you"...

And mere possession may just be somebody who wants to protect themselves in a tough neighborhood. Doesn't mean it should be legal, doesn't mean he was planning to shoot anybody either.

I think you're off base with your idea to toughen gun laws. If tough laws did the trick, we would have wiped out crime by now. As I said above, just from an enforcement pov, increasing police going after guns would do way more than toughening the laws. But still not eradicate the problem.

[wyly]

It won't but in Toronto that's their plan of the Left-wing

i'm about as left wing as you'll find on this forum...gun control isn't a left or right issue...

[capricorn]

...the gangster/punks will have to resort to using knives which much safer for innocent bystanders, and I really don't care if gangsters want to stab each other to death...

In the good old days, rival gang members would meet somewhere away from public view to settle their scores. It was mostly about who was the toughest. Sometimes a truce was negotiated, sometimes the violence would stop at fists but at times knives were drawn on both sides. Nobody died that wasn't supposed to.

With today' gangstas and gangsta wannabes it's about one disrispecting the other and/or about protecting their turf. Fists and knives don't permanently erase their opponents. Only guns provide them the needed final solution. If innocents get in the way that's too bad, as long as they hit the intended targets. A total disregard for human life, as long as it's not their own.

[wyly]

And mere possession may just be somebody who wants to protect themselves in a tough neighborhood. Doesn't mean it should be legal, doesn't mean he was planning to shoot anybody either.

ya it does, open it there and you have to open the door to carrying handguns everywhere...and then there's the myth that you'll have an opportunity to get your handgun out in time to defend yourself...no handguns.

I think you're off base with your idea to toughen gun laws. If tough laws did the trick, we would have wiped out crime by now. As I said above, just from an enforcement pov, increasing police going after guns would do way more than toughening the laws. But still not eradicate the problem.

obviously the laws aren't very tough I believe the minimum sentence for possession is 1 year and if convicted I think usually walk after 2/3s of that...studies have shown when mandatory sentences are raised for possession, criminals do reconsider their options as I posted earlier crimes are premeditated...and where minimum sentences were introduced gun crimes decreased and where criminals did so regardless they can be put away for longer periods of time which solves the problem too...I love human rights and such but criminals forfeit a lot of their rights when they ignore the laws, I don't feel sorry for those who illegally carry handguns to aid their lifestyle...

[Canuckistani]

ya it does, open it there and you have to open the door to carrying handguns everywhere...and then there's the myth that you'll have an opportunity to get your handgun out in time to defend yourself...no handguns.

obviously the laws aren't very tough I believe the minimum sentence for possession is 1 year and if convicted I think usually walk after 2/3s of that...studies have shown when mandatory sentences are raised for possession, criminals do reconsider their options as I posted earlier crimes are premeditated...and where minimum sentences were introduced gun crimes decreased and where criminals did so regardless they can be put away for longer periods of time which solves the problem too...I love human rights and such but criminals forfeit a lot of their rights when they ignore the laws, I don't feel sorry for those who illegally carry handguns to aid their lifestyle...

I'm not open to carrying handguns anywhere. Merely pointing out a different scenario where carrying a handgun isn't about wanting to kill anybody unless in self-defense.

Tough laws just don't do it - it's just for show by the politicians. Putting more money into enforcement, even with the current laws we have would do way more. If tough laws were the answer, the US would be crime and drug free. Legalizing drugs would do even more. Not importing poor unskilled people with a culture of violence would help a bit too. Working to reduce poverty would be a big help.

I don't have a problem with toughening up gun laws. Just don't sit back and think you've solved the problem - it's the least effective response we could give.