Quebec Images and Realities

[jbg]

My wife and I are in the final night of a four night stay in Quebec. The first night was on the border in the Eastern Townships, and the remainder of our stay was about 40 km northeast of Quebec City in what I thought was hard-core French only territory. The impression I had gotten was that provincial (they call it "national") facilities only provided services in French.

The reality is different. For what may be purely pragmatic reasons, much of the hiking literature (and I'm not talking about la-di-da hikes that would attract casual or out of shape tourists) were translated into English. At most establishments (unless the person was playing "dumb") most people seemed to be able to communicate well in English.

I still hope that English-speaking residents are accorded equal rights; that it is not a tyranny of the majority. I can only go by what I see and that is hopeful.

Any insights on the reality?

[The_Squid]

Much of English Canada's and Québécois' complaints about each other that one hears come from the loudest mouths. Hardcore French and Quebec-hating English. The reality lies in the middle. I found Quebec to an inviting and friendly place to visit, including the areas that are devoid of English.

Enjoy your stay! I'm jealous!

Edited July 17, 2012 by Charles Anthony
removed entire Opening Post quoted in reply

[cybercoma]

If only the French got the same service in the Rest of Canada. Of course they don't because it is only the French that bother becoming bilingual.

Edited July 17, 2012 by Charles Anthony
removed entire Opening Post quoted in reply

[jbg]

If only the French got the same service in the Rest of Canada. Of course they don't because it is only the French that bother becoming bilingual.

But isn't even Federal hiring, much less Quebec national hiring, tilted towards bilingual Francophones as opposed to bilingual Anglophones?

[jbg]

Much of English Canada's and Québécois' complaints about each other that one hears come from the loudest mouths. Hardcore French and Quebec-hating English. The reality lies in the middle. I found Quebec to an inviting and friendly place to visit, including the areas that are devoid of English.

I tend to agree. I think that perhaps much of the English-haters are politicians who want to be bigger fish in a smaller pond. I don't think many workaday Quebecois hate English Canada or the U.S. for that matter.

I will remind people that a disturbing element of populism, anti-immigrant and anti-Jewish sentiment crept in during the 1995 referendum.

Enjoy your stay! I'm jealous!

We have. After I finish typingthis I'm packing the computer. It started raining so we're making an early departure.

Edited July 17, 2012 by jbg

[cybercoma]

But isn't even Federal hiring, much less Quebec national hiring, tilted towards bilingual Francophones as opposed to bilingual Anglophones?

People say that because more francophones are bilingual (proportion of pop.) than anglophones. The idea that it's tilted in favour one way or the other is simply not true. Everyone has to pass the same testing with the same benchmarks. Edited July 17, 2012 by cybercoma

[Argus]

If only the French got the same service in the Rest of Canada. Of course they don't because it is only the French that bother becoming bilingual.

Bilingualism is there where numbers warrant. If tourism facilities are making information available in English it's because there are a lot of English clients. There are damned few if any French clients of tourism facilities in the rest of Canada outside Ottawa.

[Argus]

People say that because more francophones are bilingual (proportion of pop.) than anglophones. The idea that it's tilted in favour one way or the other is simply not true. Everyone has to pass the same testing with the same benchmarks.

No, actually, they don't. The English tests for Francophones are considered much easier than the French tests given to Anglophones. I know a few Francophone civil servants, as an example, who openly say they would not be able to pass the French exams if they had to take them. And they and others point to other Francophones they say would never pass those exams.

The French testing is done on the basis of 'academic' French which no one outside universities uses. You must be familiar with all the myriad tenses and grammatical quirks of the French language to pass. But most Francophones use a more colloquial French, both written and spoken.

I've also heard it said that the French are very particular about oral French, that mispronunciations and poor grammar "hurts their ears" whatever the hell that means. Anyone who has ever had any dealings with the federal government, however, knows that heavy French accents, the "dis, dat an' da udder ting" version of English is perfectly fine for French speakers who are "bilingual". Anglos rarely get outraged at thick foreign accents and odd pronunciations. But we tend not to be as 'provincial' as the Quebecers.

[cybercoma]

Bilingualism is there where numbers warrant. If tourism facilities are making information available in English it's because there are a lot of English clients. There are damned few if any French clients of tourism facilities in the rest of Canada outside Ottawa.

Of course. Because there's considerably more English people in North America than French.

[Peter F]

No, actually, they don't. The English tests for Francophones are considered much easier than the French tests given to Anglophones. I know a few Francophone civil servants, as an example, who openly say they would not be able to pass the French exams if they had to take them. And they and others point to other Francophones they say would never pass those exams.

and yet there are lots of anglophones who pass the tests. Your evidence of Francophones getting an easy ride is pretty shakey

The French testing is done on the basis of 'academic' French which no one outside universities uses. You must be familiar with all the myriad tenses and grammatical quirks of the French language to pass. But most Francophones use a more colloquial French, both written and spoken.

No. written French is written French. There is no such thing as 'academic' written French. Like English, the only difference between coloquial and academic is the vocabulary used. The tenses and grammar remain the same in both cases

I've also heard it said that the French are very particular about oral French, that mispronunciations and poor grammar "hurts their ears" whatever the hell that means. Anyone who has ever had any dealings with the federal government, however, knows that heavy French accents, the "dis, dat an' da udder ting" version of English is perfectly fine for French speakers who are "bilingual". Anglos rarely get outraged at thick foreign accents and odd pronunciations. But we tend not to be as 'provincial' as the Quebecers.

I guess we'll never know about Anglo civil servants speakomg French with horrendous English accents.

[Argus]

Of course. Because there's considerably more English people in North America than French.

Your statement was it's only the French who "bother to become bilingual". Yes it's numbers. That's what I'm pointing out.

By and large becoming bilingual is pointless if you're an anglophone. It serves no purpose and you'll soon forget it anyway from lack of use.

[Argus]

and yet there are lots of anglophones who pass the tests. Your evidence of Francophones getting an easy ride is pretty shakey

Your statement that there are 'lots of anglophones' who pass the test is also without any support. In my experience, most jobs which are declared 'bilingual imperative' have Francophones in them. Most Anglos who can pass the higher level tests are Quebec anglos, or people who have been given the benefit of full time French language training by the government. There are a few upper middle class kids whose parents ensured they spent lots of time learning French, mostly from around Ottawa, but they're the minority.

No. written French is written French. There is no such thing as 'academic' written French

.

I remember when my sister was living in Gatineau with a French guy. When his kids brought their French home, he was incapable of helping them with it. She had to help them, even though she wasn't really all that bilingual. Lots of Francophones use very sloppy written French because it's a lot more complex and demanding than written English. That's especially true in bilingual areas like around the National Capital Region.

[Peter F]

I remember when my sister was living in Gatineau with a French guy. When his kids brought their French home, he was incapable of helping them with it. She had to help them, even though she wasn't really all that bilingual. Lots of Francophones use very sloppy written French because it's a lot more complex and demanding than written English. That's especially true in bilingual areas like around the National Capital Region.

Ah, should there be two standards in written reports? Franco's writing in English must meet some high level standard with few if any grammatical mistakes and Anglo's writing in French are allowed all sorts of mistakes. Your argument is French is a more complex language than English Therefore Anglos should be cut some slack.

[cybercoma]

Your statement was it's only the French who "bother to become bilingual". Yes it's numbers. That's what I'm pointing out.

By and large becoming bilingual is pointless if you're an anglophone. It serves no purpose and you'll soon forget it anyway from lack of use.

I agree with you. There's no reason for anglophones to learn French, so they "don't bother." While francophones nearly have to learn English if they want to leave Quebec.

Yeah. Yeah. There's francophones outside Quebec, but nearly ALL of them are bilingual.

[cybercoma]

In my experience with the NB provincial government, people have to do a verbal test for speaking and comprehension, as well as a reading and writing test. Regardless of whether you're a francophone, anglophone, or allophone, you must write both the French and English portions of the test. Theoretically a francophone could fail the French portion of the test and vice versa if his/her language skills suck. Maybe this isn't the case with the federal government. NB is bilingual, whereas the federal government has "two official languages." A subtle but important distinction perhaps.

Edited July 17, 2012 by cybercoma

[Wild Bill]

Ah, should there be two standards in written reports? Franco's writing in English must meet some high level standard with few if any grammatical mistakes and Anglo's writing in French are allowed all sorts of mistakes. Your argument is French is a more complex language than English Therefore Anglos should be cut some slack.

Peter, do you realize you just used the exact same argument in favour of Francophones that Argus had pointed out was used against Anglos?

Are you suddenly agreeing with him?

[Peter F]

Peter, do you realize you just used the exact same argument in favour of Francophones that Argus had pointed out was used against Anglos?

Ok, I was not clear. A language is a language with its own unique structure and grammar. If one language is more difficult to learn than another it isnt so by dint of some plot or other.

If French is a more complex and difficult language compared to English that does not excuse the English from failing to speak/write French in a competent manner in order to get a bilingual rating.

Nor is it the Franco being shown 'favouritism' by learning English and the poor Anglo 'not being favoured' by learing French.

Edited July 17, 2012 by Peter F

[Guest Peeves]

If only the French got the same service in the Rest of Canada. Of course they don't because it is only the French that bother becoming bilingual.

What out and out garbage.

French is guaranteed in courts etc. in Canada.

The restrictions on others in Quebec are legendary. Language police, signage, etc. As to civil rights, it certainly isn't an even playing field between Quebec and the other provinces.

The French founded Canada, but they lost and had they lost to the USA there would be no rights to a French culture in North America. They got lucky.

Edited July 17, 2012 by Peeves

[Guest Peeves]

Much of English Canada's and Québécois' complaints about each other that one hears come from the loudest mouths. Hardcore French and Quebec-hating English. The reality lies in the middle. I found Quebec to an inviting and friendly place to visit, including the areas that are devoid of English.

Enjoy your stay! I'm jealous!

People are people. Those in Quebec are French first, then Canadians in my experience. That doesn't make them worse it only defines them. I've only found one person in Quebec that I didn't like, and he was a Frenchy from France.

While in Grand-Mère, Quebec - Shawinigan area a city located on the Saint-Maurice River in the Mauricie area in Quebec, the local boat social club had a base of members originally from France that would not associate with the French- Canadiens.

It was then known here as Shawinigan Falls. That soon changed. I called long distance through an operator a bit later asking for a number in Shawinigan Falls. The operator said there is no Shawinigan FALLS! and hung up on me...

Had I known Cretien was around that area I might have looked him up in dat dere place an give to h'im a quick fausse-couche!

Edited July 17, 2012 by Peeves

[capricorn]

Had I known Cretien was around that area I might have looked him up in dat dere place an give to h'im a quick fausse-couche!

fausse-couche..

[kraychik]

But isn't even Federal hiring, much less Quebec national hiring, tilted towards bilingual Francophones as opposed to bilingual Anglophones?

This is true, as the standards for English are lower than the standards for French in the federal service. More importantly, Francophones enjoy a natural advantage in the sense that it is much easier for them to learn English due to a sort of cultural osmosis. In most circumstances, they have great access to English and there is more pressure on them to do so, whereas Anglophones have to go more out of their way to learn French, and there's less pressure on them to learn French in order to be successful.

Also important is the discrimination against non-Francophone families when it comes to enrolling children in French schools. Unless one of the parents is a Francophone, parents cannot enrol their children in a French school in order to have the best opportunity to learn French. There are French immersion options for such parents who make a decision to prioritise the learning of French for their children, but it's not nearly the same quality of education and immersion in French as a French-speaking school.

It should also be noted, though, that French schools are protecting a certain quality of its student body by implementing these standards. The proficiency in French of its students would likely diminish somewhat if they began to accept students with no French background (without any French parents), and this could have an adverse effect on the quality of French education for the rest of the children. Of course, this same standard isn't applied to English schools. English schools have plenty of non-English speaking kids whose parents have come from non-English speaking countries. So there are several double-standards at play in Canada which offer advantages to the Francophones with respect to protecting the integrity of their language instruction in schools, as well as preferential practises that favour Francophones when it comes to hiring in the federal service.

[westguy]

People say that because more francophones are bilingual (proportion of pop.) than anglophones. The idea that it's tilted in favour one way or the other is simply not true. Everyone has to pass the same testing with the same benchmarks.

it only makes sense to speak English if you are surrounded by 300,000,000 anglophones.

[g_bambino]

This is true, as the standards for English are lower than the standards for French in the federal service.

That's the second time this claim has been poffered in this thread. Is there, however, any supporting evidence to be shown?

[cybercoma]

That's the second time this claim has been poffered in this thread. Is there, however, any supporting evidence to be shown?

The claim is that French is more grammatically difficult with all of its tenses, ignoring the massive amount of irregular verbs and verb constructions we have in English.

At the end of the day, anglophones don't learn French because they don't have to. If they were as fluently bilingual as francophones, who have had to learn English out of necessity in many cases, they would have all the same opportunities.

The problem is the argument that the opportunities unfairly benefit francophones. They don't. They benefit the bilingual. If francophones in a larger proportion to their population are learning English, then the benefit of these jobs going to them is a pittance for the struggle they face maintaining their language and culture on a mainly English continent.

[g_bambino]

The problem is the argument that the opportunities unfairly benefit francophones. They don't. They benefit the bilingual.

That's what I've argued elsewhere on this board, some time ago.

Though, I have encountered public servants with such a thick accent from no part of Canada, and a command of the English language so abysmal, it made me highly doubt they had any ability to speak French at all.