Mulcair, Lougheed, Stelmach

[madmax]

Interesting Article in the Calgary Herald.

Its seems that Mulcair has been taking the position of past PC leaders when talking of the Alberta Oil Industry.

Pretty Scary stuff. Because I think this article has nailed something I hadn't considered.

Mulcair says it and he means it.

I think this is good for the country as I also believe Harper Says what he means, even if he chooses to say it outside of Canada first.

I see alot of fear mongering about Mulcair and it is similar to the fearmongering set upon Harper in his early days as opposition leader.

It should be an interesting 3 years till the next election.

Mulcair appears to be as tough as nails and so far it also appears that he means what he says. Perhaps a better version of Stephen Harper as Harper was far more radical before he was Prime Minister. A firewall advocate vs a nationalist.

I never thought it possible, but perhaps this frontal assault on the maginot line of Conservative Alberta is opening up opportunities.

It will be interesting to see who is the better strategist.

Much Like Harper did, he took a party skeptical of his leadership and has quickly solidified it.

And yet little of what Mulcair is saying strays to far from the PCs of Alberta,. He is taking positions they have held in the past.

Its interesting to see this approach move the NDP in the high teens low 20s in the Province where he is getting the most negative press.

That was until I read this piece.

http://www.calgaryherald.com/opinion/columnists/leader+Thomas+Mulcair+Alberta+Conservatives+sounding/6926578/story.html

[Moonbox]

And yet little of what Mulcair is saying strays to far from the PCs of Alberta,. He is taking positions they have held in the past.

Well refining oil in Canada is something that should have started a long time ago. It's common sense I think and at least Mulcair has it in regards to this. I'm not sure how close to the Alberta PC's aside from that, but we'll see. If he wants a chance federally he really needs to stop saying things like Alberta oil exports hurts TROC's economy, because he's just going to get into a pissing match with the Alberta premier. For Mulcair to stand even a reasonable chance out west he's going to have to abandon a lot of uncle Jack's policies and move way closer to the middle, but we'll see what happens.

[Wild Bill]

Well refining oil in Canada is something that should have started a long time ago. It's common sense I think and at least Mulcair has it in regards to this. I'm not sure how close to the Alberta PC's aside from that, but we'll see. If he wants a chance federally he really needs to stop saying things like Alberta oil exports hurts TROC's economy, because he's just going to get into a pissing match with the Alberta premier. For Mulcair to stand even a reasonable chance out west he's going to have to abandon a lot of uncle Jack's policies and move way closer to the middle, but we'll see what happens.

If domestic refineries were such a good idea then why haven't new ones been built by the private sector already? Why have they been closing old ones?

What no one wants to face is that Canada has put so many expensive "green regulations" upon refineries that it would be the stupidest idea in the world to build more in Canada!

Years ago, these regulations brought lots of photo-ops and one would assume votes to the parties that enacted them. Now, some decades later, we have far higher demand for refined petrochemicals and fuel yet we have discouraged companies from building.

The chickens have come home to roost! You can't have your cake and eat it too!

Over the past few decades, what was the NDP position on new regulations for refineries? Did they give any thought to the eventual results in the oil marketplace?

Not that I'm singling them out. The other parties were no different.

Edited July 13, 2012 by Wild Bill

[waldo]

If domestic refineries were such a good idea then why haven't new ones been built by the private sector already? Why have they been closing old ones?

What no one wants to face is that Canada has put so many expensive "green regulations" upon refineries that it would be the stupidest idea in the world to build more in Canada!

Years ago, these regulations brought lots of photo-ops and one would assume votes to the parties that enacted them. Now, some decades later, we have far higher demand for refined petrochemicals and fuel yet we have discouraged companies from building.

The chickens have come home to roost! You can't have your cake and eat it too!

no, the favoured regulations go-to is not the cause of no new refineries being built... notwithstanding the actual expansion equivalencies to new refineries being built.

- those so-called, as you say, "intrusive EPA regulations", certainly haven't hindered the granting of EPA permits for upgrade/expansion capacity...

to the effective equivalency of 23 new oil refineries

, hey? But, then again, wherefore and why is simply an inconvenient truth...

oh wait... what's this? Surely not more wherefore and why and scrutinizing fact!!!

Wall Street Journal

:

Exxon Mobil Corp. says it believes that, by 2030, hybrid gasoline-and-electric cars and light trucks will account for nearly 30% of new-vehicle sales in the U.S. and Canada. That surge is part of a broader shift toward fuel efficiency that Exxon thinks will cause fuel consumption by North American cars and light trucks to peak around 2020 -- and then start to fall.

"

For that reason, we wouldn't build a grassroots refinery" in the U.S., Rex Tillerson, Exxon's chairman and chief executive, said in a recent interview. Exxon has continued to expand the capacity of its existing refineries. But building a new refinery from scratch, Exxon believes, would be bad for long-term business

say what! No new refineries cause it would be bad for the BigOil bottom line... nah, c'mon... it's all to do with, as stated, EPA "intrusive" regulations.

[waldo]

why do Harper Conservatives want to ship those jobs to Texas... to ship those jobs overseas? Just who is Stephen Harper here for?

[TimG]

Well refining oil in Canada is something that should have started a long time ago.

There is NO need for new refining capacity in North America. They are closing down existing ones. The trouble with Muclair is he is a ignorant buffoon when it comes to economics and that makes him dangerous.

[waldo]

There is NO need for new refining capacity in North America. They are closing down existing ones. The trouble with Muclair is he is a ignorant buffoon when it comes to economics and that makes him dangerous.

in regards to some of those Eastern U.S.refineries closing/slated to close... while Texas production increases dramatically yet no pipelines exist to get that Texas product to the Eastern refineries... tied in with their negative margins that associate to a reliance on some of the most expensive type/sourced foreign oil delivered by tanker. Of course, from a tarsands perspective, those Eastern U.S. refineries closing down aren't capable of refining the tarsands product... anyway. Of course, refined fuel prices have been tempered by lower consumer demand (fuel-efficient vehicles, more emphasis on reformulated gasoline blends, economic downturn). Anything else in that mix, hey?

of course, there are 2 markets... the current downturn one in developed countries and the ever expanding/growing one in developing countries. In the attached link we have Muclair speaking to a want, for Canada, to refine the tarsands product 'in-house' for those developing expanding/growing markets overseas... not withstanding to lessen Canada's own import ratio. It's quite easy for you to simply offer a drive-by labeling Muclair an, "ignorant buffoon" when it comes to economics; however, your unqualified commentary can only be matched by your own highly suspect MLW historical track record on "economics".

[wyly]

Well refining oil in Canada is something that should have started a long time ago. It's common sense I think and at least Mulcair has it in regards to this. I'm not sure how close to the Alberta PC's aside from that, but we'll see. If he wants a chance federally he really needs to stop saying things like Alberta oil exports hurts TROC's economy, because he's just going to get into a pissing match with the Alberta premier. For Mulcair to stand even a reasonable chance out west he's going to have to abandon a lot of uncle Jack's policies and move way closer to the middle, but we'll see what happens.

refining oil here is logical, why export long term jobs to the US...pipeline jobs are short term...

Premier Redford with her ill advised avoidance of meeting with Mulcair is stupid, it may play well with the hardcore conservatives but ignoring the man who could very well be our next PM is dumb,...I'm sure it's also done to appease Harper as meeting Mulcair gives him and the NDP a visual legitimacy the the CPC wants avoid...

[wyly]

If domestic refineries were such a good idea then why haven't new ones been built by the private sector already? Why have they been closing old ones?

why? because international corporations have no interest in providing local employment, they're all about profit...it's typical corporate behavior, pullout the resources and manufacture the end product elsewhere with lower labour costs...if they could auto manufacturers would do the same, pull out our raw materials and build ALL the cars and trucks in Mexico, how would that work for the ontario economy?...why shouldn't albertans/canadians get more benefit from our oil?

[Wild Bill]

why? because international corporations have no interest in providing local employment, they're all about profit...it's typical corporate behavior, pullout the resources and manufacture the end product elsewhere with lower labour costs...if they could auto manufacturers would do the same, pull out our raw materials and build ALL the cars and trucks in Mexico, how would that work for the ontario economy?...why shouldn't albertans/canadians get more benefit from our oil?

So you think its ALL about labour costs? That the extra cost of "green" regulations is too trivial to consider, even though there are other countries that have NO such extra costs?

I see. International corporations will not build new refineries in Canada because they are pricks who don't want Canada to get the jobs.

I assume domestic companies must feel the same way.

Thanks for making that clear! I never would have known.

[wyly]

So you think its ALL about labour costs? That the extra cost of "green" regulations is too trivial to consider, even though there are other countries that have NO such extra costs?

I see. International corporations will not build new refineries in Canada because they are pricks who don't want Canada to get the jobs.

I assume domestic companies must feel the same way.

Thanks for making that clear! I never would have known.

Canada's "Green" costs and restrictive regulations come no where near those imposed by Norway and Netherlands which have nine refineries between the two of them, Exxon, Shell, BP are some of the major corporations with refineries there and both countries have highly profitable energy industries getting maximum employment from those resources... Norway with it's enormous pension funds puts alberta's to shame... international corporations will get away with whatever we let them, they'll complain, protest and bluff trying to get the best deal possible and accept was is given because they want and NEED our resources...their corporate goal is profit not jobs for any local economy...

[cybercoma]

The trouble with Muclair is he is a ignorant buffoon when it comes to economics

Odd. Economists around the world and OPEC supported his statements about Dutch Disease, while the Conservatives continue to deny the uneven economy. Moreover, NDP governments have run more balanced budgets than any other party. The ignorant buffoons seem to actually know a thing or two and can put it into practice.

[CPCFTW]

I thought the ndp didn't believe in subsidizing the "dirty" oil industry. I guess it's only ok if they can nationalize the industry and create taxpayer-funded unionized refinery jobs. Silly conservatives want to ship our jobs to Texas instead of raising taxes to pay for public sector refinery jobs!

Why stop there? Let's raise taxes even more and build some national chip manufacturers to employ more public unionized labour! Why are we shipping our jobs to south korea!?!

[Moonbox]

Odd. Economists around the world and OPEC supported his statements about Dutch Disease,

Sources please. I'm not so sure about that.

There's no denying that the oil revenue has appreciated the value of the dollar, which does make exporting more difficult, but are these economists saying that the oil industry has been bad for Canada as a whole? I'm REALLY REALLY REALLY DOUBTING it.

The increased dollar is actually GOOD for Canada in a lot of ways. The fact that Ontario's manufacturing industry has relied on a currency advantage to compete is pretty unhealthy and has been for some time. A stronger dollar will make it much cheaper for them to purchase the equipment needed to modernize their infrastructure and make them ACTUALLY competitive, rather than artificially through currency exchange.

Mulcair's rhetoric on Dutch disease strikes me as an example of someone who knows just enough about economics to sound stupid about it.

Edited July 13, 2012 by Moonbox

[wyly]

I thought the ndp didn't believe in subsidizing the "dirty" oil industry. I guess it's only ok if they can nationalize the industry and create taxpayer-funded unionized refinery jobs. Silly conservatives want to ship our jobs to Texas instead of raising taxes to pay for public sector refinery jobs!

Why stop there? Let's raise taxes even more and build some national chip manufacturers to employ more public unionized labour! Why are we shipping our jobs to south korea!?!

oh ya lets play the conservative shell game instead deferring the true cost of energy exploitation to future generations 0f TAXPAYERS for the environmental cleanup costs...your entire theory is shot full of holes by Norway's success, very socialist, very low unemployment 3%, worlds highest standard of living #1...

really the naivety of people to believe the energy industry propaganda..."if we have to be environmentally responsible the project won't be profitable!" yeah that lie works for the rubes I guess, Shell oil is destroying the Niger River Delta in Nigeria because of non existent environmental controls and yet that same corporation operates a spotless operation in the Netherlands because that's the price the government insists they pay, and they do because it's profitable...

[cybercoma]

Sorry, I used the wrong acronym there. I meant to say OECD report and wrote OPEC (since we were talking about oil).

It's not that it has been bad for Canada as a whole. The problem is that it's uneven development that relies on a commodity. If the bottom falls out of oil, all of that time ignoring the other sectors of our economy is going to come back and bite us in the ass. In other words, we'll be screwed.

Publication here: https://docs.google.com/viewer?url=http://www.irpp.org/pubs/IRPPstudy/IRPP_Study_no30.pdf&pli=1

New article here: http://www.cbc.ca/news/world/story/2012/06/13/oecd-canada-outlook.html

Bonus article:

This article discusses an Alberta think-tank that agrees with the Dutch Disease assessment, as well as the former head of the Bank of Canada, while a conservative think tank in Ottawa of course dismisses it. https://www.theglobeandmail.com/report-on-business/economy/economy-lab/oil-sands-fuel-think-tank-debate-over-dutch-disease/article4217526/

[Canuckistani]

most studies seem to show that about 1/3 of job losses in manufacturing in Ontario can be attributed to our resource exports. (Not just oil, but all of them). We have some Dutch disease but aren't dying from it. I think Mulcair wanting to tax the oil industry more is very reasonable. Look at all the revenue Norway gets from their oil vs us.

[TimG]

Odd. Economists around the world and OPEC supported his statements about Dutch Disease

No they did not. I read the papers that were produced on the topic and they are are either complete nonsense that failed to take into account the decline of US manufacturing or the support the CPC assertion that the Dutch Disease is not something Canada needs to worry about. Edited July 13, 2012 by TimG

[cybercoma]

Whatever you say, professor.

[kraychik]

Whatever you say, professor.

Do you really think anyone in here believes your claim about "economists around the world", as if you follow such things? You're just making things up as you go along, and it's obvious. You have your (unsubstantiated) opinion on the matter, and want to dress it up with the preface of "economists around the world", when you can't even name three economists.

[wyly]

Do you really think anyone in here believes your claim about "economists around the world", as if you follow such things? You're just making things up as you go along, and it's obvious. You have your (unsubstantiated) opinion on the matter, and want to dress it up with the preface of "economists around the world", when you can't even name three economists.

Dutch Disease is real not something that cyber just pulled out of thin air...the web is your friend, the world and everything in it is at your finger tips you only need to do the search, or you can pretend it's all a lie and do nothing...

[CPCFTW]

oh ya lets play the conservative shell game instead deferring the true cost of energy exploitation to future generations 0f TAXPAYERS for the environmental cleanup costs...your entire theory is shot full of holes by Norway's success, very socialist, very low unemployment 3%, worlds highest standard of living #1...

really the naivety of people to believe the energy industry propaganda..."if we have to be environmentally responsible the project won't be profitable!" yeah that lie works for the rubes I guess, Shell oil is destroying the Niger River Delta in Nigeria because of non existent environmental controls and yet that same corporation operates a spotless operation in the Netherlands because that's the price the government insists they pay, and they do because it's profitable...

What does this have to do with what I posted? I didn't say anything about the environment.

Fact is that refineries are expensive and you want the government to step in and build them for the oil co's, since the oil co's determined that it was not profitable to do so. Building expensive refineries costs taxpayers money. And who will pay for the pipelines to the refineries if oil co's determine that it is still more profitable to refine in Texas than to build a network or pipelines to oil refineries in Canada?

This shows just how economically incompetent Mulcair is. He claims Canada has dutch disease and then wants to dump taxpayer dollars into the same industry. Just another lawyer who will argue anything for a dollar. He'd probably defend Magnotta if it would get him more money than being PM. The real question is if he can sleep at night when he's knowingly manipulating simple leftists minds for money and power.

[wyly]

What does this have to do with what I posted? I didn't say anything about the environment.

and where has anyone posted the government should build/own refineries, that came right out of your imagination...raising taxes on exported raw materials would encourage refining...as a conservative with the "superior conservative" financial sense you certainly don't display it... we have the capitalist dream situation, we have a product "everyone" wants...Canada can make the energy giants jump through hoops to get it and they will, if they won't someone else will(china), and they know it...as country we're holding all the cards with aces up our sleeve, we're in a win, win, win position...

you ignore the environmental cost as if it's not real and that the damage will magically clean itself up at no cost to taxpayers in the future or that the energy giants out of the goodness of their corporate hearts will voluntarily clean it up at their own expense!...that's delusional...

[TimG]

Dutch Disease is real not something that cyber just pulled out of thin air...the web is your friend

Gee - I read it on the Internet - it MUST be true!!!! Sorry. The fact that lefty partisans have jumped on this band wagon does not mean it is a relevant concern for Canadian policy makers (note the phrasing - I did not say that the phenomena does not exist - I said it is not a relevant concern - I have no patience for the bait and switch games that lefies play).

[TimG]

.raising taxes on exported raw materials would encourage refining..

In your dreams. The economics for refineries in Alberta is simply not there and no tax policy is going to change that. The only consequence of such taxes would be to slow the development of the oil sands which means reduced royalties for government.