Tough on crime program/bill/policy.

[Guest Peeves]

65-year-old man shoots “teen” dead after three “teens” knock him off his bike and assault him

http://www.amnation.com/vfr/archives/021542.html

More here.

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I'm not a proponent of certain of the (Harper Bill) applications particularly in the case of minor drug possession,BUT, I am 100% in favor of the new broadened protection for the citizen that responds to theft or violence.

Cops don't serve and protect us anymore in many cases. Cops in other cases stand firmly on the 'thin blue line and refuse to co operate with civilian over site agencies. Police investigating police, or police Union putting up road blocks.

http://www.cpc-cpp.gc.ca/prr/inv/police/projet-pip-pep-eng.aspx

Citizens should also be allowed protection, (?).. mace, taser, or in some venues even a gun for protection. Some jobs are as dangerous certainly as are the police.

After all 'kids' today @ 14-15 are as big and heavy as a man a generation ago. Kids seem more prone to excess, beating, knifing and the like compared to a generation ago. A mugging in the 50's was far less common in my recollection and seldom if ever entailed the use of a gun/knife.

So, what's wrong with this linked case? The good guy(s) won.

I have grave concerns about it, because though 'they' deserved punishment, did they deserve death?

There was a story in the news in the past week where a young teen out on probation attacked an 80 year old.

Now the 'elder' may not have much time left, but to me their 'aged' quality of life is more meaningful than a teen loser that preys on the old.

I wouldn't miss the teens in this case..

So I'm asking, in todays society, why should a repeat offender be able to rack up charge after charge and conviction after conviction with seemingly no end?

Do we need a 'Three Strikes" law here? Do we need judges that protect 'us not repeat offenders?

Isn't it time the hammer was indeed dropped on the habitual criminal? Shouldn't I or perhaps a frail member of the citizenry be able to arm themselves.....with something?

Worrisome?

Abbott, 26, of Iowa City, has been arrested in Johnson County every year since 2004, according to court records, and he has additional arrests as a juvenile. He was charged with 20 crimes from 2007 to 2011, according to jail records, and he’s back behind bars now on suspicion of his third domestic assault.

“I honestly can’t say or pinpoint what the problem is,” Abbott told KCRG.

Abbott is among 115 repeat offenders in Johnson County who have been charged with 20 or more crimes between 2007 and 2011. He also belongs to a group of 134 “frequent fliers” who’ve been arrested in Johnson County every year for the past five years.

Linn County’s list of recidivists is even longer, according to jail records reviewed by KCRG. More than 950 people there have been charged with 20 or more crimes between 2007 and 2011. That includes Joseph F. Botello, 72, of Cedar Rapids, who was charged with 143 crimes in the five-year stretch.

Recidivists — repeat criminal offenders who have spent more than a few nights in jail — are a problem, according to local law enforcement officials and experts. Frequent fliers, on average, use a majority of a jail’s beds, and they can cost a county millions — especially inmates who don’t have the means to pay required room and board fees.

And it's happening everywhere including here.

[dre]

65-year-old man shoots “teen” dead after three “teens” knock him off his bike and assault him

http://www.amnation.com/vfr/archives/021542.html

More here.

***************************************************************************************************

I'm not a proponent of certain of the (Harper Bill) applications particularly in the case of minor drug possession,BUT, I am 100% in favor of the new broadened protection for the citizen that responds to theft or violence.

Cops don't serve and protect us anymore in many cases. Cops in other cases stand firmly on the 'thin blue line and refuse to co operate with civilian over site agencies. Police investigating police, or police Union putting up road blocks.

http://www.cpc-cpp.gc.ca/prr/inv/police/projet-pip-pep-eng.aspx

Citizens should also be allowed protection, (?).. mace, taser, or in some venues even a gun for protection. Some jobs are as dangerous certainly as are the police.

After all 'kids' today @ 14-15 are as big and heavy as a man a generation ago. Kids seem more prone to excess, beating, knifing and the like compared to a generation ago. A mugging in the 50's was far less common in my recollection and seldom if ever entailed the use of a gun/knife.

So, what's wrong with this linked case? The good guy(s) won.

I have grave concerns about it, because though 'they' deserved punishment, did they deserve death?

There was a story in the news in the past week where a young teen out on probation attacked an 80 year old.

Now the 'elder' may not have much time left, but to me their 'aged' quality of life is more meaningful than a teen loser that preys on the old.

I wouldn't miss the teens in this case..

So I'm asking, in todays society, why should a repeat offender be able to rack up charge after charge and conviction after conviction with seemingly no end?

Do we need a 'Three Strikes" law here? Do we need judges that protect 'us not repeat offenders?

Isn't it time the hammer was indeed dropped on the habitual criminal? Shouldn't I or perhaps a frail member of the citizenry be able to arm themselves.....with something?

Worrisome?

And it's happening everywhere including here.

The problem is its about what we can afford. For each person sitting in jail 8 people need to work full time and pay taxes in order to fund it.

Also I dont like the whole way you are approaching this. You are starting with an anecdote, and assuming that anecdote constitutes a reason for reform.

Instead you need to ask these questions...

1. Does our criminal justice system in general result in an orderly and safe society, that is stable enough for a prosperous economy?

2. Is crime increasing a lot, or is it in decline?

3. Does our system produce results that are comparable to, or better then that of our peers.

Once you know the answers to these questions you can decide where this fits in with all the spending priorities or if it is in fact a spending priority at all.

[carepov]

The problem is its about what we can afford. For each person sitting in jail 8 people need to work full time and pay taxes in order to fund it.

Also I dont like the whole way you are approaching this. You are starting with an anecdote, and assuming that anecdote constitutes a reason for reform.

Instead you need to ask these questions...

1. Does our criminal justice system in general result in an orderly and safe society, that is stable enough for a prosperous economy?

2. Is crime increasing a lot, or is it in decline?

3. Does our system produce results that are comparable to, or better then that of our peers.

Once you know the answers to these questions you can decide where this fits in with all the spending priorities or if it is in fact a spending priority at all.

Yes! In other words - before trying to implement solutions - get a full understanding of the system and the problem.

Today's "crime solutions" in Canada are more likely to increase crime in the long term and waste money.

[gunrutz]

The politically left whines non stop about the need for more gun control, when it is easy to prove that the average long gun owner contributes virtually nothing to crime. The majority of firearms crimes are perpetrated in cities, no doubt you could break it down even further, by race, or economic standing. But we can't do that, we can't be honest about the realities, but as soon as we want to get tougher on crime, or allow people easier access to weapons for self defense, we need to take a step back and look at the numbers..that's inconsistent thinking. Crime is generally low, unless of course you look at some enclaves within our larger cities, crime there isn't low at all, in any case every individual has the right to self defense, if you choose to push someone of their bicycle, you have chosen reciprocation.

[carepov]

The politically left whines non stop about the need for more gun control, when it is easy to prove that the average long gun owner contributes virtually nothing to crime. The majority of firearms crimes are perpetrated in cities, no doubt you could break it down even further, by race, or economic standing. But we can't do that, we can't be honest about the realities, but as soon as we want to get tougher on crime, or allow people easier access to weapons for self defense, we need to take a step back and look at the numbers..that's inconsistent thinking. Crime is generally low, unless of course you look at some enclaves within our larger cities, crime there isn't low at all, in any case every individual has the right to self defense, if you choose to push someone of their bicycle, you have chosen reciprocation.

Knee-jerk "solutions" are not unique to any party. I agree with you, the long-gun registry in response to the Ecole Polytechnique killings was a big waste.

[Guest Peeves]

The problem is its about what we can afford. For each person sitting in jail 8 people need to work full time and pay taxes in order to fund it.

Also I dont like the whole way you are approaching this. You are starting with an anecdote, and assuming that anecdote constitutes a reason for reform.

Instead you need to ask these questions...

1. Does our criminal justice system in general result in an orderly and safe society, that is stable enough for a prosperous economy?

2. Is crime increasing a lot, or is it in decline?

3. Does our system produce results that are comparable to, or better then that of our peers.

Once you know the answers to these questions you can decide where this fits in with all the spending priorities or if it is in fact a spending priority at all.

Obviouly th original post was rambling. I saw that. But I have concerns. Much to worry about.

A) Police don't/won't/ can't protect us. They then frequently charge those that protect themselves. They generally won't testify if another cop is involved. They refuse to provide their notes as requested.When possible they have the same lawyer as a group,and their union sets up road blocks into law enforcement inquiries.

The public is denied protective resources. Where as in many states, one may carry a gun if licensed and tested, here we can't even carry a taser or pepper spray. Should everyone carry a lead weighted 'walking cane' alternatively? A pocket knife? A B.B. bat?

C) Habitual and repeat offenders are too often out on bail and commit other crimes. Sometimes with a HUNDRED convictions.

[guyser]

The public is denied protective resources. Where as in many states, one may carry a gun if licensed and tested, here we can't even carry a taser or pepper spray. Should everyone carry a lead weighted 'walking cane' alternatively? A pocket knife? A B.B. bat?

Carry bear spray then.

Taser and pepper spray arent legal in all of the US

[Guest Peeves]

1. Does our criminal justice system in general result in an orderly and safe society, that is stable enough for a prosperous economy?

No it does not. Recidivism proves our society is not protected since habitual offenders, even those the police KNOW will re offend, are allowed out to prey on the law abiding citizens that are defenseless.

2. Is crime increasing a lot, or is it in decline?

http://news.nationalpost.com/2011/07/21/crime-rate-down-across-canada/

Crime is reported to be decreasing according to stats in many areas.

Though crime like assault and rapes are frequently going unreported according to other reputable sources. I question the stats provided by police agencies as they have a vested interest in convincing us that we don't need personal protection and that they are competent. What did it take to get Blair to admit failure in the G20 debacle for example.

3. Does our system produce results that are comparable to, or better then that of our peers.

That is of little interest to the victim. Comparison with 'peers' is of little value unless done comparing like to like.

Who? are our peers? Manitoba, Nova Scotia? or Toronto? This year? Over what time span?

{"Recently updated statistics from the Toronto Police suggest that violent incidents like Sunday’s shooting near Ashbridges Bay are becoming more common as shooting are up significantly over the same time in 2011.

As of July 3, shootings with victims in Toronto are 29.7 per cent, with 37 per cent more victims – 44 more in total - compared to the same day in 2011.

The number of shootings without victims is up significantly as well, with 56.1 per cent more shootings without a victim, and 73.3 per cent more shootings where there is no known victim.

Shootings in Toronto are also seemingly more public in 2012.

"Shootings up, but homicides down in Toronto as public awareness of violence increases"}

To me there is every reason to be concerned with the seeming lack of credibility of the police, (RCMP as well), and the drug crime, home invasion etc.

Edited July 10, 2012 by Peeves

[Canuckistani]

I agree that our laws on self-defense could be changed a bit, but I sure don't want to go the stand your ground route.

I believe in longer sentences, but not necessarily incarceration. Ie possibly longer periods of parole with stricter supervision, but also better supports. In prison we need much more emphasis on rehabilitation. And we need much better access to drug treatment and mental health services. Then there will be the few who just can't be helped, and need to be locked up for long periods. But first we need to help the ones that can be helped.

[guyser]

No it does not.

Yes it does.

Recidivism proves our society is not protected since habitual offenders

So, anywhere from 1.6% to < 3% recidivism is a problem?

http://www.csc-scc.gc.ca/text/pblct/forum/e053/e053h-eng.shtml

Edited July 10, 2012 by guyser

[Tilter]

Carry bear spray then.

Taser and pepper spray arent legal in all of the US

No, bear spray is illegal---- however--- Wasp spray is not illegal, shoots further, straighter and is as effective (or better if the eyes of a bear, dog or even a teen bent on robbing you. Also, try some on your bedside table in case of a "wasp" breaking into your home at night.

Edited July 10, 2012 by Tilter

[Guest Peeves]

No, bear spray is illegal---- however--- Wasp spray is not illegal, shoots further, straighter and is as effective (or better if the eyes of a bear, dog or even a teen bent on robbing you. Also, try some on your bedside table in case of a "wasp" breaking into your home at night.

I might be wrong but I believe it would be illegal as a noxious use on a person.

[guyser]

No, bear spray is illegal----

Methinks you are confused perhaps?

Bear spray is legal, Pepper spray is not.

[guyser]

I might be wrong but I believe it would be illegal as a noxious use on a person.

Bear spray is when used that way

[Argus]

Bear spray is when used that way

Heck, seems to me the police charged a grocer in a recent case for throwing spices at an armed robber.

[bush_cheney2004]

B ) The public is denied protective resources. Where as in many states, one may carry a gun if licensed and tested, here we can't even carry a taser or pepper spray. Should everyone carry a lead weighted 'walking cane' alternatively? A pocket knife? A B.B. bat?

Then move to many states....problem solved.

[guyser]

Heck, seems to me the police charged a grocer in a recent case for throwing spices at an armed robber.

The noxious substance act or something like that.

Makes sense .

Edited July 10, 2012 by guyser