Conservatives allegedly hiding financial information from PBO

[Argus]

I've wondered how come Page has so much face time on political shows like Power Play and, Power and Politics. What is he? An officer of the Library of Parliament or some type of ombudsman on financial/economic issues? As I understand, he doesn't report directly to Parliament. He reports to someone but I looked and can't find who exactly.

Page has blown that job wildly out of proportion. It was supposed to be a kind of anonymous accounting thing which would respond to requests for information from MPs, kind of like the US General Accounting Office. You don't see people from the GAO appearing on media political shows. You don't see them giving press conferences. You don't see them doing interviews. They work for congress. They provide reports to congress. And that's it. I think that's what the Tories expected from Page, and instead they got this self promoting media whore who assigns himself work based on whether he believes what the government says on various economic or financial matters, then goes on TV to refute them.

Edited June 19, 2012 by Argus

[WWWTT]

If Mr Page took his “case” to court, it would be laughed out under the following exceptions added to the Act that created his office:

So your saying that the conservative government had no real intent on being transparent in the first place.

This was all smoke and mirrors.

WWWTT

[punked]

So your saying that the conservative government had no real intent on being transparent in the first place.

This was all smoke and mirrors.

WWWTT

Yep they had to create the office to look transparent enough to get their majority. Now that they have it they feel entitled to be able to hid the books and plans not only from the Canadian people but their own creation and appointment the PBO. Go figure.

[punked]

Page has blown that job wildly out of proportion. It was supposed to be a kind of anonymous accounting thing which would respond to requests for information from MPs, kind of like the US General Accounting Office. You don't see people from the GAO appearing on media political shows. You don't see them giving press conferences. You don't see them doing interviews. They work for congress. They provide reports to congress. And that's it. I think that's what the Tories expected from Page, and instead they got this self promoting media whore who assigns himself work based on whether he believes what the government says on various economic or financial matters, then goes on TV to refute them.

I think your comparison is off. I was always under the impression that the PBO was not to be like the GAO but like the Congressional Budget office which audits all numbers, even pretend sets of numbers like the Ryan Budget and makes projections based on facts. You would be hard pressed to see any American Politicians hiding numbers and accounting from the CBO people would go crazy.

[capricorn]

Yep they had to create the office to look transparent enough to get their majority.

I wouldn't chalk up their majority solely on the grounds of the creation of the PBO.

[punked]

I wouldn't chalk up their majority solely on the grounds of the creation of the PBO.

I would say it was clearly a political move because they are refusing to actually supply the office with the numbers it needs to do its job. Why hid those numbers they should be out for all the public to see. Why hid any numbers at all?

[Argus]

I think your comparison is off. I was always under the impression that the PBO was not to be like the GAO but like the Congressional Budget office which audits all numbers, even pretend sets of numbers like the Ryan Budget and makes projections based on facts. You would be hard pressed to see any American Politicians hiding numbers and accounting from the CBO people would go crazy.

I agree, but the CBO hasn't set itself up as a sort of adjunct official opposition to the government either.

Look, let me readily admit that the Tories have never grown out of the bunker mentality they had when in minority, and an election could be just around the corner. Every request for information, so far as they're concerned, is a search by someone for ammunition to use against them (this is probably not all that far from the truth, btw). And they're determined to rob the opponents of as much ammo as they can, or at least, to delay it so it's not as deadly. I'm disappointed in this. I had hoped that with a majority they would have the confidence to deal with information people present which is unflattering. But that isn't the case. So they come across as paranoid and secretive even when they're not doing anything wrong. They also use sledgehammers against opposition parties when they could simply deal with them as uncooperative partners.

Not that the opposition is in the least mood, nor has ever been, to cooperate in ANYTHING that might make the government look good, of course. I can see the frustration the Tories have in dealing with them, and their inclination to simply write them off, say "FU" to anything and everything the opposition want, and ignore them. The omnibus budget bill being one example. But that's not the way democratic government is supposed to work. I would personally like to see them showing more respect to parliament, and to requests for information, and admitting errors more readily. Hey, everyone makes them. I think their current attitudes makes them come off as sinister, suspicious and cold bloodedly ruthless even to middle of the road voters, and I don't think it's in their ultimate best interests.

Edited June 19, 2012 by Argus

[guyser]

I agree, but the CBO hasn't set itself up as a sort of adjunct official opposition to the government either.

Look, let me readily admit that the Tories have never grown out of the bunker mentality they had when in minority, and an election could be just around the corner. Every request for information, so far as they're concerned, is a search by someone for ammunition to use against them (this is probably not all that far from the truth, btw). And they're determined to rob the opponents of as much ammo as they can, or at least, to delay it so it's not as deadly. I'm disappointed in this. I had hoped that with a majority they would have the confidence to deal with information people present which is unflattering. But that isn't the case. So they come across as paranoid and secretive even when they're not doing anything wrong. They also use sledgehammers against opposition parties when they could simply deal with them as uncooperative partners.

Not that the opposition is in the least mood, nor has ever been, to cooperate in ANYTHING that might make the government look good, of course. I can see the frustration the Tories have in dealing with them, and their inclination to simply write them off, say "FU" to anything and everything the opposition want, and ignore them. The omnibus budget bill being one example. But that's not the way democratic government is supposed to work. I would personally like to see them showing more respect to parliament, and to requests for information, and admitting errors more readily. Hey, everyone makes them. I think their current attitudes makes them come off as sinister, suspicious and cold bloodedly ruthless even to middle of the road voters, and I don't think it's in their ultimate best interests.

Well said.

[jacee]

Was watching Power and Politics last night and the Conservatives admitted that they are withholding information, but they simply think that it is within their right to do so because that information is not pertinent to the budget. Obviously the parliamentary budget officer disagrees.

And so do we. We do have a right to know not just the numbers, but the impact on us - jobs, programs and services.

I think Kevin Page should take it to court.

[jacee]

I agree, but the CBO hasn't set itself up as a sort of adjunct official opposition to the government either.

Look, let me readily admit that the Tories have never grown out of the bunker mentality they had when in minority, and an election could be just around the corner. Every request for information, so far as they're concerned, is a search by someone for ammunition to use against them (this is probably not all that far from the truth, btw). And they're determined to rob the opponents of as much ammo as they can, or at least, to delay it so it's not as deadly. I'm disappointed in this. I had hoped that with a majority they would have the confidence to deal with information people present which is unflattering. But that isn't the case. So they come across as paranoid and secretive even when they're not doing anything wrong. They also use sledgehammers against opposition parties when they could simply deal with them as uncooperative partners.

Not that the opposition is in the least mood, nor has ever been, to cooperate in ANYTHING that might make the government look good, of course. I can see the frustration the Tories have in dealing with them, and their inclination to simply write them off, say "FU" to anything and everything the opposition want, and ignore them. The omnibus budget bill being one example. But that's not the way democratic government is supposed to work. I would personally like to see them showing more respect to parliament, and to requests for information, and admitting errors more readily. Hey, everyone makes them. I think their current attitudes makes them come off as sinister, suspicious and cold bloodedly ruthless even to middle of the road voters, and I don't think it's in their ultimate best interests.

Yes, very well said Argus.

It would be nice if Harper showed some maturity in his role as PM of ALL Canadians instead of displaying only his talent as political strategist. He is setting himself up for ongoing dissent and protest that can and will embarrass him internationally.

He does not speak for "Canadians" because he won't even speak to most of us, nor our representatives, and we can make that uncomfortable for him.

Harper's talent is politics, not governance. He seems wholly unprepared for the role he has spent his life to gain. Sad really.

[waldo]

Page has blown that job wildly out of proportion. It was supposed to be a kind of anonymous accounting thing which would respond to requests for information from MPs, kind of like the US General Accounting Office. You don't see people from the GAO appearing on media political shows. You don't see them giving press conferences. You don't see them doing interviews. They work for congress. They provide reports to congress. And that's it. I think that's what the Tories expected from Page, and instead they got this self promoting media whore who assigns himself work based on whether he believes what the government says on various economic or financial matters, then goes on TV to refute them.

nonsense - I guess you never watch any American 'public' TV news programs... or mainstream TV 'news magazine' type shows. The former head of the U.S. GAO was regularly in the media from PBS to CNN to... CBS' 60 minutes. Why the guy had the presence to help launch a national media focused 'Fiscal Wake-up Tour',where he partnered with various organizations to bring awareness to Americans of wasteful U.S. Government spending... a 40 U.S. city tour with maximum media exposure and appearances.

of course, it is the obligatory duty of partisan Harper Conservative supporters, like you, to denigrate Page/PBO... simply because he brings notice on the failings of Harper Conservatives... in spite of the many obstacles they place in his path.

[bleeding heart]

nonsense - I guess you never watch any American 'public' TV news programs... or mainstream TV 'news magazine' type shows. The former head of the U.S. GAO was regularly in the media from PBS to CNN to... CBS' 60 minutes. Why the guy had the presence to help launch a national media focused 'Fiscal Wake-up Tour',where he partnered with various organizations to bring awareness to Americans of wasteful U.S. Government spending... a 40 U.S. city tour with maximum media exposure and appearances.

of course, it is the obligatory duty of partisan Harper Conservative supporters, like you, to denigrate Page/PBO... simply because he brings notice on the failings of Harper Conservatives... in spite of the many obstacles they place in his path.

Well said.

If the argument is "why can't we do it like the Americans?"...well, the answer, presumably, is because the Americans did this right. So our Government doesn't want to.

[Argus]

nonsense - I guess you never watch any American 'public' TV news programs..

I do, actually, and can't recall seeing the Comptroller General on any of them. Perhaps you could give us some cites, some particular media interviews he's given with political panels and such. I mean, you always support your statements, right?

of course, it is the obligatory duty of partisan Harper Conservative supporters, like you, to denigrate Page/PBO... simply because he brings notice on the failings of Harper Conservatives... in spite of the many obstacles they place in his path.

Why would I not denigrate Page? He's more interested in getting his face on TV than doing an even adequate job. His attitude has ruined any hope of him being given any cooperation by the government, and I have little doubt any reports he does go straight into the recycle bin. And as soon as his appointment is up he's done with any governmental body permanently. You think the Liberals or NDP would ever hire a loose cannon like him? Not a chance. He took what is supposed to be an apolitical job and turned it into an adjunct official opposition.

The next budget officer will show enough professionalism to stay well away from the media, give his reports to parliament, and keep his face away from cameras.

[Argus]

Well said.

If the argument is "why can't we do it like the Americans?"...well, the answer, presumably, is because the Americans did this right. So our Government doesn't want to.

I don't agree that the comptroller general appears on media shows to criticize government spending. I'm sure you and Waldo can prove me wrong, though, by finding his many media appearances.

[bleeding heart]

I don't agree that the comptroller general appears on media shows to criticize government spending. I'm sure you and Waldo can prove me wrong, though, by finding his many media appearances.

The "Fiscal Wake UP Tour"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fiscal_Wake-Up_Tour

GAO official David Walker on 60 Minutes:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D6Q14HOBThM

"The US Economy is Unsustainable"

There's two of Waldo's claims....the first and only two that I looked up, and that took me approximately one minute.

Edited June 20, 2012 by bleeding heart

[Argus]

The "Fiscal Wake UP Tour"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fiscal_Wake-Up_Tour

GAO official David Walker on 60 Minutes:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D6Q14HOBThM

"The US Economy is Unsustainable"

There's two of Waldo's claims....the first and only two that I looked up, and that took me approximately one minute.

That's simply not comparable. What the fiscal wake up tour was about was clueing Americans in to the long term unsustainable nature of their social programs. It was a non-partisan affair and no one disputes his numbers. Also, since he's talking about future, long term issues the existing politicians don't care a lot. Kevin Page is challenging existing government policies and figures on a regular basis.

[waldo]

There's two of Waldo's claims....the first and only two that I looked up, and that took me approximately one minute.

clearly... your follow through made no difference to the Argus; as is his way, he simply blew them off. The Argus beaks off about his presumed Page/PBO partisanship... for no other reason than the Argus has extreme reservations over Page/PBO profiling the most significant failings of the Argus' favoured Harper Conservatives. And the Argus has the nerve to speak of partisanship!

in any case, counter to the Argus, there is no shortage of challenge made to the U.S. GAO reports... there is also no shortage of internal obstructionism that the U.S. GAO must deal with, including the U.S. Military, the U.S. Intelligence agencies, the U.S. Executive Branch. Expect the Argus to spout off calling for more citations (that he'll simply ignore anyway). But hey now, where are the Argus' citations to support anything he ever says - that's right... the Argus citations are MIA!

[Shakeyhands]

Kevin Page is challenging existing government policies and figures on a regular basis.

Ummm... Isn't that what his mandate is?

[cybercoma]

Ummm... Isn't that what his mandate is?

I don't recall him challenging government policy. He challenges their figures when they're doing things wrong or hiding information from him... as he should too. In fact, Page is the one trying to get them to follow government policy that the Conservatives themselves created. If anyone is challenging policy and showing contempt here, it's the Conservative government.

[Shakeyhands]

I don't recall him challenging government policy. He challenges their figures when they're doing things wrong or hiding information from him... as he should too. In fact, Page is the one trying to get them to follow government policy that the Conservatives themselves created. If anyone is challenging policy and showing contempt here, it's the Conservative government.

I should have qualified about the figures as opposed to policies. Thanks for clarifying for me.

Perhaps Argus could cite where he has challenged policy?

[bleeding heart]

That's simply not comparable. What the fiscal wake up tour was about was clueing Americans in to the long term unsustainable nature of their social programs. It was a non-partisan affair and no one disputes his numbers. Also, since he's talking about future, long term issues the existing politicians don't care a lot. Kevin Page is challenging existing government policies and figures on a regular basis.

Not comparable?

You asked a question:

I don't agree that the comptroller general appears on media shows to criticize government spending. I'm sure you and Waldo can prove me wrong, though, by finding his many media appearances.

Question answered.

Is the term "moving the goalposts" becoming too stale?

[cybercoma]

Andrew Coyne has a good read on the conflict between the CPC and the PBO.

Feud with budget officer a conflict between Conservatives and their own ideals

The officer specifically authorized to gather information on spending from government departments is guilty of “overstepping” for attempting to do precisely that?

Read the full article here.

[bleeding heart]

Andrew Coyne has a good read on the conflict between the CPC and the PBO.

A good piece.

[mentalfloss]

I was just going to mention the Coyne article. He's a fairly conservative-minded pundit, so it should go without saying that his opinion wouldn't be skewed to the left on this matter. He makes the obvious assertion that many have already acknowledged - the Cons have become blatant hypocrites on the matter of fiscal transparency.

Edited June 21, 2012 by mentalfloss