The Just Society and its enemies

[Bakunin]

I think the law say the french as to be bigger but often its same size, or they put the english sign in italic but like i say, the law is not applyed. I have a sample under my eyes i think, its recordable compact discs, on it their is a french logo and an english logo, its from staples business depot, you can see them here in the top left corner

http://www.staples.calogo they are quite similar, the french one looks bigger but its a kind of illusion. the text is smaller since its shorter in english. I think its bigger in cm² its problaby legal in quebec.

The law however is a volontary or dissuasive kind of law. Wal-mart in french is wal-mart. Mc donald is Mc donald and Canadian tire is Canadian tire and tim horton is tim horton etc...

I dont know anything from the roc culture except hockey but i know the american culture. Just like the roc problably don't know quebec culture like singer,actor etc... except celine dion since she's linked to the american culture.

The problem is that there really is not a common goal that both Quebec and the ROC can agree on.

Thats what i think too. I would like canada to work but to work without fighting like cat and dog, politics must be separate one way or another and i doubt that both side will understand it without being hurt and shocked first.

[maplesyrup]

I think the law say the french as to be bigger but often its same size, or they put the english sign in italic but like i say, the law is not applyed. I have a sample under my eyes i think, its recordable compact discs, on it their is a french logo and an english logo, its from staples business depot, you can see them here in the top left corner

http://www.staples.calogo they are quite similar, the french one looks bigger but its a kind of illusion. the text is smaller since its shorter in english. I think its bigger in cm² its problaby legal in quebec.

The law however is a volontary or dissuasive kind of law. Wal-mart in french is wal-mart. Mc donald is Mc donald and Canadian tire is Canadian tire and tim horton is tim horton etc...

I dont know anything from the roc culture except hockey but i know the american culture. Just like the roc problably don't know quebec culture like singer,actor etc... except celine dion since she's linked to the american culture.

The problem is that there really is not a common goal that both Quebec and the ROC can agree on.

Thats what i think too. I would like canada to work but to work without fighting like cat and dog, politics must be separate one way or another and i doubt that both side will understand it without being hurt and shocked first.

The language law in Quebec is ridiculous, most people realize that, but hey, it's no big deal.

I think Trudeau did call Bourassa once un manger de hot dog though or words to that effect.

[maplesyrup]

Article

McPherson reports that in both countries the more the federalists appeased the separatists -- by granting them special "rights" and allowing them to pass laws (e.g., Quebec's French language sign laws) which violate individual rights -- the stronger the separatist movement became. Trudeau appeased Quebec nationalism by making Canada officially bilingual.

I am not so sure it was Trudeau's idea for Canada to become official bilingual. I think Pearson already had plans for it, although Trudeau may have implemented it.

[Bakunin]

Its not that ridiculous, its just that an english can't see the need because they don't face the same situation as us. Actually we have a great culture and i think it benefit our society, just look at our movie industry, "the barbarian invasion" won prices evrywhere even one oscars.Our humorist, actor, singer and etc, doesn't move to the united states. Except from celine dion but thats a good thing.

For sign its a dissuasive law and from what you posted here, our politics on language for school is the same as the canadian one...

[Guest eureka]

Until the rebellions in the 1830's, language was not an issue. The Act of Union made English the only official language of Upper and Lower Canada in 1841. At Confederation in 1867, French was restored as an official language in Quebec.

No mention was made of language in the Constitution because Quebec was a dual language province - not a bilingual. The languages existed side by side in every way. Religious schooling was legislated because that was all that mattered.

When the West began to be opened up, the clerical authorities in Quebec did not much care whether the French were assimilated as long as they kept their Catholic faith. Indeed, there are recorded statements by Quebec bishops to that effect and one that I once came across encouraging French settlers to go west and, by the power of their loans, dominate it for the faith; not for language.

With respect to present day Quebec and its language laws, the pretext is made that, since the Constitution does not entrench the English language, it is within the power of the government to legislate Quebec as a uningual French society. That is wrong and it is a dual language society, legally.

It seems that commentators cannot get past the "sign" provisions of the laws although these are not the most damaging features. Signs must display French in letters twice the size of English or any other and, contrary to what Bakunin says, that is rigidly enforced. The law initially banned the use of any language but French but that was overturned by the Ciurts. It is interesting to note the names quoted and to note that the apostrophe s's have been dropped. That is also the law: All provincially registered companies must change their names to French ones and that is achieved in that way for those corporations.

English schooling is only available to those shown in the Constitution Act as eligible. Immigrants from English speaking countries MUST enroll their children in French schools. Again, even the English speaking from other provinces were, initially, forced into French schools. This led to many English speaking Protestants forced into French Catholic schools.

The law invades every aspect of life outside the home. French is made compulsory for virtually all commerce and institutional life.

The English speaking in Quebec built their own hospitals, universities and school system. They had to since education in Quebec did not become compulsory until 1949 and their was only a rudimentary education system - non English, that is. Quebec has taken over those English institutions and "Francised" them. It is dangerous for unilingual English speakers to now go into some of what were English hospitals.

As I pointed out in another discussion,about 50% of the English population has left Quebec since the language laws and a much higher proportion of the younger. The English community is dying.

There was a belief amongst the French Firsters that when a "minority" population sank below 14% it was no longer a social factor. There is some support for this view. The Anglophone and English speaking Allophones prior to the language laws constituted more than twenty %. They are now not much more than half that. Anglophones have declined from about 19% to about 8%.

What has happened comes close to the definitions of genocide.

[caesar]

g I have the right to apply for enforcement, maybe I should launch an action in the courts for a bilingual Trans-Canda Highway in BC, at least to start with. 

Where is that right written. I fail to see where road signs are required to be in a minority language.

Road signs are fairly international. If you can't read them; stay off the road.

[Bakunin]

contrary to what Bakunin says, that is rigidly enforced.

Totally false...

Ill give you 1 sample: "Canadian tire" its called "canadian tire" in french too, just like any international corporation.

Immigrants from English speaking countries MUST enroll their children in French schools.

Many immigrants when they come to canada don't even know that their are french speakers.. Before the law 101 they where all learning english so they didn't integrate our culture.. whats the point of immigration if immigrant don't integrate to your culture... Their is nothing radical their..

What has happened comes close to the definitions of genocide.

Yeah its quite similar to rwanda or the jews LOL....

The reality is that before the laws 101 the french wich was the majority of the population was living how the english has to live now... We just switched the role.

Its quite hipocryte to talk about genocide when english canadian tryed themselve to assimilate us and in other province than quebec they acheived their goal in assimilating us...

[maplesyrup]

Stupid and ignorant, yes. Genocide, no.

Although it wasn't until the bombs went off in the late sixties, that some English Montreal restaurants decided it was time for bilingual menus. Murrays for one!

[maplesyrup]

g I have the right to apply for enforcement, maybe I should launch an action in the courts for a bilingual Trans-Canda Highway in BC, at least to start with. 

Where is that right written. I fail to see where road signs are required to be in a minority language.

Road signs are fairly international. If you can't read them; stay off the road.

Canada is officially bilingual. The Trans Canada Highway is federal jurisdiction. And I want bilingual signs in BC, actually right across the country for that matter, but we can start with BC, and according to the Canadian Constitution Act of 1982 I have that right.

[maplesyrup]

What is the point of stooping to the idiotic level of the French only signage laws in Quebec?

One of the main reasons why we need bilingual, everything to do with at least the federales, is that I don't want les sovereignists to have any grounds for grievances. I don't want them to be able to say: see even the TCH is not bilingual so we should separate. Do you understand what I mean? Comprennez-vous? Let's take the high road concerning language in the this country outside of Quebec, eh!

[Guest eureka]

All Provincially registered companies have been forced to "Francise" their names. Canadian Tire does not fall into that category and also, I think, their name is a registerd trademark federally.

What about "Eaton" and Steinberg" as a couple who were forced to drop the apostrophe.

The roles have not been reversed since French was never proscribed by law - at least since 1840. There has never been a threat to French in quebec and there has never been any justification for a law requiring immigrants to "integrate" into the French milieu. There is no comparable law in any other province.

I think it might be helpful to read the International Agreements on genocide. There does not have to be violence for it to exist. And, as I said, the language laws of Quebec come close to part of the definitions. They are not quite there, in my opinion, but they are close. There are lawyers in Quebec who do think the situation qualifies as genocide.

[kimmy]

g I have the right to apply for enforcement, maybe I should launch an action in the courts for a bilingual Trans-Canda Highway in BC, at least to start with. 

Where is that right written. I fail to see where road signs are required to be in a minority language.

Road signs are fairly international. If you can't read them; stay off the road.

Canada is officially bilingual. The Trans Canada Highway is federal jurisdiction. And I want bilingual signs in BC, actually right across the country for that matter, but we can start with BC, and according to the Canadian Constitution Act of 1982 I have that right.

Congratulations! I think I can say without exaggeration that you've found the least important issue to face this country since 1867!

I can just imagine how thrilled the residents of south-eastern BC will be to hear about your plan. The money that the government keeps promising to find to improve the dangerous portions of the TransCanada in the Rockies isn't there-- again-- but GUESS WHAT, at least the government can find millions of dollars to spend replacing perfectly good roadsigns with... bilingual roadsigns. Whoopee. What a tremendous boost for the Francophone residents of that part of BC... all 3 of them.

I still don't really understand how you expect bilingual roadsigns will improve life for BC drivers of any language. Will these bilingual roadsigns say "Salmon Arm 104/ Bras Des Saumons 104"?

Perhaps the pictographs on the restrooms at highway rest-stops can be made more francophone-friendly. For example, the "male" pictograph could be drawn with an extra-wide collared polyester shirt, and side-burns. The "female" pictograph could be drawn with hairy armpits and a cigarette.

As Caesar mentioned, traffic signage is pretty international. Immigrants arrive in Vancouver without knowing either official language and find their way around just fine. I'm sure BC's poor oppressed Francophones-- all three of them-- will survive somehow.

I hope that you're kidding about this pointless cause you keep mentioning. I really hope you're not serious about pursuing legal action. Some French-guy with a lawyer forcing the government to spend millions and millions of dollars on something that's of no benefit just because the constitution says he's entitled? That is not the way to solve language animousity in Canada. You'd succeed in raising an angry backlash. The only people who'd appreciate you would be Quebec nationalists who just love seeing somebody poke that hornet's nest with a stick.

-kimmy

[maplesyrup]

Why do you think the sign law in Quebec is such a big issue?

No matter what one does there will always be a backlash from some small-minded provincial-type zenophobic naysayers. That's to be expected. It's time BC showed some leadership on Canada's two official languages issue anyways. BTW do you have any idea how many francophones live in BC? Do you know the statistics on the number of kids that are in French immersion in BC? Across Canada? They need reinforcement to preserve what they are learning, eh. Check it out - you may be surprised!

[kimmy]

Why do you think the sign law in Quebec is such a big issue?

I don't think signs are a big issue. Are you making assumptions about me? Eureka's message earlier mentioned more serious aspects of Quebec's language laws.

No matter what one does there will always be a backlash from some small-minded provincial-type zenophobic naysayers. That's to be expected.

I don't think the backlash would be based on small-minded xenophobia. I think it would be based on outrage over a ridiculous waste of government money when many more important areas are under-funded.

It's time BC showed some leadership on Canada's two official languages issue anyways.

BC is the last part of Canada that should be expected to show leadership on French-related issues. In the west, and especially in BC, the "two founding cultures" rhetoric just doesn't reflect the reality of the province or its history.

BTW do you have any idea how many francophones live in BC?

I would bet that the number of BC francophones who are also literate in English is close to 100%, so spending a bunch of money on French road signage would be a ridiculous, stupid waste of money.

I also expect that the statistics will show that French doesn't even crack the top 10 in terms of usage.

Do you know the statistics on the number of kids that are in French immersion in BC? Across Canada? They need reinforcement to preserve what they are learning, eh. Check it out - you may be surprised! 

If they want reinforcement, road signs are about as helpful as cereal boxes. As Trudeau once said "So turn the box around" and read the French side. The government already spends lots of money supporting French language radio and TV stations in BC. French road signs aren't needed.

-kimmy

[maplesyrup]

Actually if I remember correctly, what Trudeau said was turn the box around and read the English side to BCers who were complaining about the French on their cereal boxes. Also think how easy that makes it to pick up additional French vocabulary:

Cereal = cereale. See, that's not so bad, isn't it?

Before you know it you'll be bilingual. It's a piece of cake!

Do you buy cereal for the bilingual packaging to help you learn another language, or is it for the toy inside the box?

Trudeau had an affinity for the West, he even married a woman from the West Coast.

[idealisttotheend]

Good one Maple. Now if we could only get verb conjegation tables in public places I would be Bilingual.

I once worked in a warehouse and the guys who worked there for years and years actually had learned the French and knew pretty much every case in a 125,000 sq feet facility by it's french side as well as it's English side. I remember thinking that it was due to Trudeau but then it was in Edmonton and there weren't many french speakers around to appreciate it.

[kimmy]

Actually if I remember correctly, what Trudeau said was turn the box around and read the English side to BCers who were complaining about the French on their cereal boxes.  Also think how easy that makes it to pick up additional French vocabulary:

Cereal = cereale. See, that's not so bad, isn't it?

Before you know it you'll be bilingual.  It's a piece of cake!

Do you buy cereal for the bilingual packaging to help you learn another language, or is it for the toy inside the box? 

Trudeau had an affinity for the West, he  even married a woman from the West Coast.

You didn't respond to my claim that the "two founding cultures" rhetoric is irrelevant in BC, so I assume you have no argument?

You also didn't dispute my guess that French probably isn't even in the top 10 most used languages in BC, so I gather you probably think I'm right?

You didn't address the argument that French road signs for BC are a low priority when more important causes are underfunded... so I gather you don't disagree.

You didn't argue against my opinion that almost all BC francophones can read english, making French signage a non-issue. So you're ok with that claim as well?

Actually if I remember correctly, what Trudeau said was turn the box around and read the English side to BCers who were complaining about the French on their cereal boxes.

I'm aware of the original context. However, it pleased my sense of irony to borrow it. As in, if you don't have enough french stuff to read in BC, go ahead and read the french side of the box.

Do you buy cereal for the bilingual packaging to help you learn another language, or is it for the toy inside the box? 

I buy cereal because I'm hungry. I only wish they'd start putting some cool toys in the box like they used to.

-kimmy

[maplesyrup]

Good one Maple. Now if we could only get verb conjegation tables in public places I would be Bilingual.

I once worked in a warehouse and the guys who worked there for years and years actually had learned the French and knew pretty much every case in a 125,000 sq feet facility by it's french side as well as it's English side. I remember thinking that it was due to Trudeau but then it was in Edmonton and there weren't many french speakers around to appreciate it.

That's actually a pretty good idea. Where could we put those tables up - maybe on the Jimmy Pattison bulletin boards and transit shelters.

There is also another way to get more people in BC speaking French. Give them a financial incentive, like a discount on their income taxes if they can talk in French. We could have government French language testing centres set up across the province, just like the motor vehicle bureaus. Good for 5 years, and then you have to renew - be retested. Maybe it could be done in conjunction with air care, so while you are waiting for your air care results, there could a French testing machine in the waiting rooms.

[Argus]

No one is forcing anything down anyone's throat,

Tell that to the mom and pop stores who are tenants of the federal government and being ordered to provide bilingual services.

When one attends school one takes a variety of subjects and in Canada we need to be teaching both languages from kindergarten up. As a matter of fact we need a bilingual school system - it's long overdue.

The problem is that it is an extremely difficult and time-consuming task to learn French. The grammatical rules are opposite to English, and after all that time and effort what do we produce? Almost everywhere in Canada what you have is a bilingual high school grad who will lose his bilingualism over the next few years for lack of use.

In other words, a huge waste of time and money and effort producing, in the end - nothing.

[Argus]

Canada is officially bilingual. The Trans Canada Highway is federal jurisdiction. And I want bilingual signs in BC, actually right across the country for that matter, but we can start with BC, and according to the Canadian Constitution Act of 1982 I have that right.

Why don't we start with Quebec, which has a whole helluva lot more Anglos than BC has Francophones, but which has unilingual road signs?

The whole point of language is communication. You use the language of the population. If there were to be bilingual road signs in BC it would make far more sense for them to be in Mandarin, not French.

It really doesn't matter. By the time I'm an old man French will no longer be an official language anyway. Hell, we'll be lucky if English is. I expect the official languages of Canada will be Mandarin and Arabic.

[Argus]

Actually if I remember correctly, what Trudeau said was turn the box around and read the English side to BCers who were complaining about the French on their cereal boxes.

Makes it all seem kind of petty, doesn't it? But then, here's what else Trudeau said: "Unilingual Anglophones will be sentenced to a lifetime of job immobility."

And here are a few more quotes.

"If Quebec separates I will go with it, my loyalties are with Quebec," Pierre Pettigrew, Minister of Foreign Affairs.

"The French language is mandated for use by government and its agencies throughout the country's capital in an effort to promote the French language. Therefore there is no longer a career for Anglophones in the federal civil service in Canada." Dr. Marguerite Ritchie, president of the Human Rights Institute of Canada, admitted during a panel discussion in 1995

"Everything we undertake and everything we are doing to make Canada a French state is part of a venture I have shared for many years with a number of people both inside and outside Quebec. It is hard for some of our fellow Canadians who speak the other language to accept the fact that Canada is a french state." Serge Joyal's comment to the federation acadians de nouvelle-ecosse after being appointed secretary of state by Pierre Trudeau, 1982

Also think how easy that makes it to pick up additional French vocabulary:

Cereal = cereale. See, that's not so bad, isn't it?

Before you know it you'll be bilingual.  It's a piece of cake!

"Since data has not been routinely kept, my evidence is

anecdotal. I figure I know about 40 teenagers, recently graduated or still in high school. Most of them including my own have been through the French immersion program. Of the three or four that are fluently bilingual, all come from homes where French is spoken, there are three or four more so determined to become fluent they will enroll in French university programs. About half have dropped French immersion." Dr. David Ireland's response to Ottawa Citizen reporter Dave Brown's question: "can English kids be taught to speak French." Dr. Ireland was director of research and evaluation at the Ottawa Carleton School board from 1981-1996

[playfullfellow]

There is also another way to get more people in BC speaking French. Give them a financial incentive, like a discount on their income taxes if they can talk in French. We could have government French language testing centres set up across the province, just like the motor vehicle bureaus. Good for 5 years, and then you have to renew - be retested.

LMFAO MS, I just want to thank you for making me laugh, damn near spit coffee all over the screen when I read this. For a lefty, this has to be the worst case of discrimination that I have ever seen. You want to punish people who do not speak french. Yes, punish because then we would have to pay extra taxes to make up for the few that do speak fluent french. Oh yeah, we would also have to pay for the machines that do the testing and the up keep of them. What about those of us that are bilingual but do not speak French, where is our reward? I use my second language a heck of a lot more than french. What about all of our seniors whom have no inclination or need to learn french, are they to be punished too? This is a non-workable solution for your desire to kiss quebec butt MS, it would only backfire as people do not appreciate or want the big brother scenario you propose to make everyone bilingual.

Plenty of posters have responded that they do not feel it is up to the ROC to make the first step this time, Quebec also has to show some desrie to be a part of Canada which they clearly show they do not. All they do is laugh all the way to the bank everytime we send them another stransfer cheque. I still say we put the whole bilingual thing to a national referendum and let the people decide what they want, not a bunch of over paid butt kissers in Ottawa who have never been past Ontario.

[Guest eureka]

Joyal clearly meant that Canada was also a French state not that it was solely a French state.

There is no justification for putting another construction on it.

Canada is, and should remain, a bilingual country. It began that way and, unfortunately, it expanded at a time when French was not in favour amongst the majority English. It is the initial failure to clarify the languages of Canada that prevented the French Canadians from spreading and claiming their rightful partnership with English.

It is also that failure that has led to the barbarism in Quebec.

How all that can be accomplished, I do not know. It may be that after forcing Quebec to restore its situation as a dual language province, we should consider something similar for the rest of the country.

That is, a dual language nation, not a bilingual one.

[kimmy]

There is also another way to get more people in BC speaking French. Give them a financial incentive, like a discount on their income taxes if they can talk in French. We could have government French language testing centres set up across the province, just like the motor vehicle bureaus. Good for 5 years, and then you have to renew - be retested. Maybe it could be done in conjunction with air care, so while you are waiting for your air care results, there could a French testing machine in the waiting rooms.

I thought NDPers were opposed to reckless tax cutting! I'm sorry, but I'm going to have to inform Mr Layton of your plan. I'm afraid he will be very disappointed.

This is nutty even by your standards, maple

But at least it shows that you get the picture. People in the west have no real reasons to learn French, so it's not going to happen unless the government invents fake reasons for them to learn French.

People need to learn French if they want to go into federal politics, or if they want a high-paying job ripping off Canadians in the civil service. That should be enough. That's more than enough, actually.

-kimmy