maplesyrup Posted August 17, 2004 Report Share Posted August 17, 2004 There is a mob rule mentality at work in Vernon, BC, over a Half-Way House where apparently two and possibly three of its residents have committeed murder, over an 8 year period. Of course, no stats are available about how many people overall have lived in this house. The problem may be with the prison sentences, with the parole system, but not with the Half-Way House which are essential if we are going to enable inmates to re-establish themselves back in the communities once their sentences have been served. This NIMBY attitude does nothing to solve problems in society, it only acerbates them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
willy Posted August 18, 2004 Report Share Posted August 18, 2004 Maplesyrup, murders should not be in half way houses. I think this is what the mayor of Vernon is fighting for. Some crimes should not get a second chance. Just curious. You seem to have minimized 3 murders in 8 years. When would the number become unacceptable? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caesar Posted August 18, 2004 Report Share Posted August 18, 2004 I am in shock. I am certainly with Willy on this one. Half way houses should stay out of residential areas where there are children. I hope it gets closed down. Violent criminals should be kept out of residential areas where children are. My grandchildren are moving to Vernon; I don't want any half way house that close to my grandchildren;. Let's move it inoto MS neighbourhood since she thinks that no one should complain over a few murders. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
takeanumber Posted August 18, 2004 Report Share Posted August 18, 2004 They gotta be re-intergrated some way. But the attempt at re-intergration should only happen if there's a low risk for them to re-offend. I think that halfway houses should also be located in rich communities as well. That way, it's not only the poor who have to deal with the ill effects. If there's a moderate or high risk that somebody will re-offend, then they shouldn't be allowed out until they're ready. The justice system has two components: punishment and rehabilitation. Just because somebody has 'done their time' should not entitle them to re-intergration if the rehabilitation has not been complete. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caesar Posted August 18, 2004 Report Share Posted August 18, 2004 This house has had probably 4 murders in the past 8 years. Either the authorities are not supervising these people well enough or they are not ready for this type of parole. Violent offenders are serving too little time. Sentences should have no set time. Let's see them accept counselling and show that they deserve to be out in the public before they are released. The police were not even informed that this last guy was on the lam. There are two murders that he is suspected of committing in the short time he was loose. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maplesyrup Posted August 18, 2004 Author Report Share Posted August 18, 2004 I am in shock. I am certainly with Willy on this one. Half way houses should stay out of residential areas where there are children. I hope it gets closed down. Violent criminals should be kept out of residential areas where children are. My grandchildren are moving to Vernon; I don't want any half way house that close to my grandchildren;. Let's move it inoto MS neighbourhood since she thinks that no one should complain over a few murders. Obviously shit happens sometimes, and it is a tragedy for the victims but the idea is to re-integrate these folks back into society. The Vernon Half-Way House will not be closed down. Overall the system works. How many people have successfully gone though this system? So tired of this mob rule, knee-jerk reactions, which I saw on TV today, mentality. At least people are waking up to the fact that crimes of violence are a lot more serious than taking someone's material things! What about these 3 people? what do we know about them? Were they all in jail for murder? How long do murderers get these days as a sentence? Maybe murderers should be sentenced to 40 years with no parole, or life with no parole. Would that be a better deterrent? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
willy Posted August 18, 2004 Report Share Posted August 18, 2004 How long do murderers get these days as a sentence? Maybe murderers should be sentenced to 40 years with no parole, or life with no parole. Would that be a better deterrent? It is not about deterrent. Past behaviour is the best predictor of future behaviour and in the case of murder one is enough. If you hold them until they are older than 60 at least their capacity will be limited when they get out. This is about public safety and not the rights of murderers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maplesyrup Posted August 18, 2004 Author Report Share Posted August 18, 2004 How long do murderers get these days as a sentence? Maybe murderers should be sentenced to 40 years with no parole, or life with no parole. Would that be a better deterrent? It is not about deterrent. Past behaviour is the best predictor of future behaviour and in the case of murder one is enough. If you hold them until they are older than 60 at least their capacity will be limited when they get out. This is about public safety and not the rights of murderers. Yes it is about deterrent. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caesar Posted August 18, 2004 Report Share Posted August 18, 2004 It is not mob rule. It is democracy. The people in that area have a right to close down that place. Obviously it is NOT working. These violent criminals are not ready for release and the people running the halfway house are not doing their job. Who is going to hire any of these pwople in that community now. I would like to see a remote secure village set up on a remote island where these people can be given jobs and freedom of choices and movements but where they will still be kept away from the general population. Some people should never be allowed to leave. Child molesters are generally never safe to release. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stoker Posted August 18, 2004 Report Share Posted August 18, 2004 Yes it is about deterrent And why do we want to deter them? Public safety  It is not mob rule. It is democracy. The people in that area have a right to close down that place. Obviously it is NOT working. These violent criminals are not ready for release and the people running the halfway house are not doing their job. Who is going to hire any of these pwople in that community now. Exactly. I would like to see a remote secure village set up on a remote island where these people can be given jobs and freedom of choices and movements but where they will still be kept away from the general population. Some people should never be allowed to leave. Child molesters are generally never safe to release. I'd rather the death penality for murder in the first, and tougher, longer sentances for other violent crimes. IMHO, child molesters should not be held in protective custody, but should be in with the general population. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Terrible Sweal Posted August 18, 2004 Report Share Posted August 18, 2004 i'm usually on the other side of this issue, but in this case the halfway house and/or corrections have specifically failed this particular community. the residents are right to complain and because of the failure the should be relieved from the problems. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maplesyrup Posted August 18, 2004 Author Report Share Posted August 18, 2004 Stoker....as much as this is a tragic situation you are wrong. Part of being a community in Canada includes half-way homes. Obviously there is a problem which needs to be rectified, but if you don't like it, go live in another country. There are many others willing to take your place. Canada doesn't need mob rule, and uneducated comments about half-way homes. This NIMBY mentality needs to be constantly challenged for Canada to have balanced healthy societies. The more we mix up rich and poor, sick and well, criminals one they have done their time, and non-criminals, instead of creating ghettos, the better off we will all be. If you are so concerned about what is going on go do some volunteer work with the John Howard Society. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stoker Posted August 18, 2004 Report Share Posted August 18, 2004 Stoker....as much as this is a tragic situation you are wrong. Part of being a community in Canada includes half-way homes. If you don't like it, go live in another country. There are many others willing to take your place. And part of being Canadian, is also having a democratic say........and if the people in Veron don't want a half way house for violent offenders thats within their right.................. Now if you are not big on democracy, perhaps it is you that should go live else where........I thought you were quite willing to "Toot the horn" of Sweden and Denmark..There's an idea. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stoker Posted August 18, 2004 Report Share Posted August 18, 2004 Canada doesn't need mob rule, and uneducated comments about half-way homes. This NIMBY mentality needs to be constantly challenged for Canada to have balanced healthy societies. The more we mix up rich and poor, sick and well, criminals one they have done their time, and non-criminals, instead of creating ghettos, the better off we will all be.If you are so concerned about what is going on go do some volunteer work with the John Howard Society. How would we be better off? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maplesyrup Posted August 18, 2004 Author Report Share Posted August 18, 2004 No it is not the right of citizens of Vernon to be half-way house free. That is your uneducated opinion. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stoker Posted August 18, 2004 Report Share Posted August 18, 2004 No it is not the right of citizens of Vernon to be half-way house free. That is your uneducated opinion. Why? I don't see why the elected city government can't pass an ordinance. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
idealisttotheend Posted August 18, 2004 Report Share Posted August 18, 2004 No it is not the right of citizens of Vernon to be half-way house free. That is your uneducated opinion. IMO, Vernon has a right to be half way house free if it doesn't produce any criminals. Only then can it claim not to have to take any responsibility for rehabilitating them. If it has more violent criminals in the half way house than it produces than this is still okay. After all the pollution causing power plant is probably in a different community as is the alcohol rehabilitation centre. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maplesyrup Posted August 18, 2004 Author Report Share Posted August 18, 2004 Stoker......you can't shove your problems onto to neighbour's land. That is a a band-aid solution which does nothing to address the real issues which have to do with deterrence, sentencing, parole, rehabilitation, etc. There are 84 half-way houses in BC, the vast majority are in the Lower Mainland. What if the people in the Vancouver area tried to close down their half-way houses? Then what? Don't you see where this leads? No one necessarily wants half-way houses in their neighbourhood but this is the Canadian approach. I personally think violent and weapon related crimes should carry very severe sentences, including hard labour, etc. (I question parole, but don't know enough about it), and prisons to house these people should be located away from society as much as possible, in other words, extreme measures up to, but not including capital punishment. Part of the problem is that we incarcerate people in Canada at very high rates? Are you aware of that? Perhaps we need to seriously address for what crimes one is going to prison. I think for example for material crimes, we can use alternatives to prison which could possibly be more effective deterrents. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maplesyrup Posted August 18, 2004 Author Report Share Posted August 18, 2004 Stoker.......anyway you can blame the business community, the corporate sector for the state of our penal system. After all, they are the ones that have be controlling our federal governments in this country basically from Day One, n'est pas? PS: As I have said start thinking outside the box and stop believing all the propaganda you see on your TV news every night. You gotta know that you only see what certain people want you to see. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stoker Posted August 18, 2004 Report Share Posted August 18, 2004 IMO, Vernon has a right to be half way house free if it doesn't produce any criminals. Only then can it claim not to have to take any responsibility for rehabilitating them. Why do violent criminals need to be rehabilitaed in a half way house? Stoker......you can't shove your problems onto to neighbour's land. That is a a band-aid solution which does nothing to address the real issues which have to do with deterrence, sentencing, parole, rehabilitation, etc. There are 84 half-way houses in BC, the vast majority are in the Lower Mainland. What if the people in the Vancouver area tried to close down their half-way houses? Then what? Don't you see where this leads? No one necessarily wants half-way houses in their neighbourhood but this is the Canadian approach. Why do violent criminals need to be rehabilitaed in a half way house? Stoker.......anyway you can blame the business community, the corporate sector for the state of our penal system. After all, they are the ones that have be controlling our federal governments in this country basically from Day One, n'est pas? Or we can blame those that write the laws Well we are on the topic of prisions and the corporate sector, perhaps we should look at contracting out prisions/half-way houses to the private sector Start using chain gangs again to maintain the roads/fight forest fires/produce licence plates etc.........better yet, we could offer cheap labour to the corporations, well at the same time giving criminals some "life skills".......I'd bet we could supply 20 criminals to a company like Ford, for what they pay one union worker. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maplesyrup Posted August 18, 2004 Author Report Share Posted August 18, 2004 I gather you don't understand how our political system works. Or you are in major denial about it. Cheap labour to the business community. Now there is a good charity deserving group. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stoker Posted August 18, 2004 Report Share Posted August 18, 2004 I gather you don't understand how our political system works. Or you are in major denial about it. Where did i go wrong? By all means, set me straight, but I ask you to use proof as opposed to rhetoric Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maplesyrup Posted August 18, 2004 Author Report Share Posted August 18, 2004 Debt to Society This is no solution. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stoker Posted August 18, 2004 Report Share Posted August 18, 2004 Cheap labour to the business community. Now there is a good charity deserving group. Whats wrong with the idea.........I thought you have been hammering away at helping crooks mesh back with society? What better way then to give them on the job training and a degree of their self estem back by allowing them to pay (a part of) for their "room and board" with the money they earn? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maplesyrup Posted August 18, 2004 Author Report Share Posted August 18, 2004 What's Wrong With Prisons? Sick. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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