Canuckistani Posted May 27, 2012 Report Posted May 27, 2012 (edited) At some point rehabilitation looses out. How much time has this guy spent in jail I would assume quite some time, and he still was not rehabilitated. At some point it stops being about changing or fixing the person and it becomes a means of prevention. What guy? What rehabilitation was offered to him, or was he just put in a hell hole where prisoners teach each other how to be better criminals? We should give fixing the person a really good go. If the best we can do doesn't work, then s/he needs to be locked up for ever - but we're not trying anywhere near our best. Edited May 27, 2012 by Canuckistani Quote
eyeball Posted May 27, 2012 Report Posted May 27, 2012 No... you want a system that does not produce a single shocking outcome that you can emotionalize over like a 6 year old girl. All the same I'm pretty sure the Conservative Party still want to benefit from the political bump these sorts of occasional galvanizing events produce. Your type of thinking should be kept about a billion miles away from our criminal justice system. It would be even better if we could keep this type of thinking from getting tangled up with our electoral system. Quote I said now watch what you say they'll be calling you a radical, a liberal, oh fanatical criminal
guyser Posted May 27, 2012 Report Posted May 27, 2012 You can give it up. Nobody's buying your technocrat insistence that it's life in prison even when you're sitting by the pool in the Bahamas with a blonde under each arm. The only ones not buying it are the ones who ignore the truth....people such as those who say ... that it's life in prison ....when I specifically said life sentence. And the dancing around that continues. Quote
Signals.Cpl Posted May 27, 2012 Author Report Posted May 27, 2012 What guy? What rehabilitation was offered to him, or was he just put in a hell hole where prisoners teach each other how to be better criminals? We should give fixing the person a really good go. If the best we can do doesn't work, then s/he needs to be locked up for ever - but we're not trying anywhere near our best. Robert Clifford Smith. I don't know, some criminals go to prison and come out with university degrees, so I don't know what hell hole he was in. Its really nice idea to rehabilitate criminals, but what does that mean? Give them an education? Teach them a second Language? Give them all sorts of therapy? And if they reoffend what happens? Do we give them more of the same? If you make a conscience decision to endanger other people's lives you have to live with the consequences. Its easy to say we will rehabilitate criminals, and there is a time and a place for that, but at some point after the first 60 convictions I would think he lost the right to freedom, or should have at any rate. Quote Hope for the Best, Prepare for the Worst
guyser Posted May 27, 2012 Report Posted May 27, 2012 Ok so in your argument is that 100% of all those who are handed a life in prison sentence die in prison because it means life? Is that what you mean? Because I sure would LOVE to see those statistics. What stats? The ones to confirm you move goalposts when you realize this whole time you have been arguing that which you did not know? I didnt say life in prison , you just imagined I did. Its a life sentence , and it means life, no matter how you feel about it. Quote
Signals.Cpl Posted May 27, 2012 Author Report Posted May 27, 2012 What stats? The ones to confirm you move goalposts when you realize this whole time you have been arguing that which you did not know? I didnt say life in prison , you just imagined I did. Its a life sentence , and it means life, no matter how you feel about it. Probably best one know what they are talking about before posting. Best read up on what constitutes a life sentence in Canada. Guess what? It means life. Class over. Life sentence means life without parole... Now if you are willing to argue that 100% of life sentences handed out in Canada result in life in prison without ever being release I would like to see that. You are making an argument when you know nothing about the subject, and now instead of admitting that you were spewing bullshit you try and recover. Quote Hope for the Best, Prepare for the Worst
bleeding heart Posted May 27, 2012 Report Posted May 27, 2012 The only ones not buying it are the ones who ignore the truth....people such as those who say ... ....when I specifically said life sentence. And the dancing around that continues. I know.... When did explaining different literal meanings become "technocrat insistence"? Quote “There is a limit to how much we can constantly say no to the political masters in Washington. All we had was Afghanistan to wave. On every other file we were offside. Eventually we came onside on Haiti, so we got another arrow in our quiver." --Bill Graham, Former Canadian Foreign Minister, 2007
Argus Posted May 27, 2012 Report Posted May 27, 2012 The only ones not buying it are the ones who ignore the truth....people such as those who say ... ....when I specifically said life sentence. And the dancing around that continues. Again, nobody cares about your technocrat determination that a 'life sentence' is going to protect anyone from a long term criminal, nor that it is appropriate for a career criminal. We want life in prison, not a 'life sentence', which is essentially meaningless. Quote "A liberal is someone who claims to be open to all points of view — and then is surprised and offended to find there are other points of view.” William F Buckley
Argus Posted May 27, 2012 Report Posted May 27, 2012 I know.... When did explaining different literal meanings become "technocrat insistence"? When it's completely irrelevant to the point being made. You and Guyser know very well what is being argued for - that people who are irredeemably dangerous to the public should be locked up permanently. Doggedly insisting that a life sentence is still a life sentence even when the criminal is walking the streets is pointless. Quote "A liberal is someone who claims to be open to all points of view — and then is surprised and offended to find there are other points of view.” William F Buckley
bleeding heart Posted May 27, 2012 Report Posted May 27, 2012 When it's completely irrelevant to the point being made. You and Guyser know very well what is being argued for - that people who are irredeemably dangerous to the public should be locked up permanently. Doggedly insisting that a life sentence is still a life sentence even when the criminal is walking the streets is pointless. "Life sentence" and "life in prison" are two different things. The difference wasn't parsed out pedantically by people trying to win a debate. They have different meanings. We can't help it if many people are unaware of the (real, existing, legal) distinction. Quote “There is a limit to how much we can constantly say no to the political masters in Washington. All we had was Afghanistan to wave. On every other file we were offside. Eventually we came onside on Haiti, so we got another arrow in our quiver." --Bill Graham, Former Canadian Foreign Minister, 2007
guyser Posted May 27, 2012 Report Posted May 27, 2012 Life sentence means life without parole... Now if you are willing to argue that 100% of life sentences handed out in Canada result in life in prison without ever being release I would like to see that. You are making an argument when you know nothing about the subject, and now instead of admitting that you were spewing bullshit you try and recover. Sigh...keep dancing. Now you introduce the dangerous offender segment . Signals, I knew , and showed you nemerous times, exactly why you were wrong. If you would like, I can repost the whole of your posts where you countered that a life sentence was not life. Is that what you want? Quote
guyser Posted May 27, 2012 Report Posted May 27, 2012 Again, nobody cares about your technocrat determination that a 'life sentence' is going to protect anyone from a long term criminal, nor that it is appropriate for a career criminal. We want life in prison, not a 'life sentence', which is essentially meaningless. Nobody = ignorant you mean? Yeah Id aagree w that. But then, I never said anything about protecting anyone, merely correcting the OP (and others) that a life sentence in Canada is a life sentence. But those with feelings have their nose out of joint. MOM;Here ya go, heres the pancakes KID: but i want the ones w the squares in them MOM;Those are called waffles. Kid: Mom, nobody cares about your technocrat determination Quote
Signals.Cpl Posted May 27, 2012 Author Report Posted May 27, 2012 Sigh...keep dancing. Now you introduce the dangerous offender segment . Signals, I knew , and showed you nemerous times, exactly why you were wrong. If you would like, I can repost the whole of your posts where you countered that a life sentence was not life. Is that what you want? Please inform me how I am wrong, and don't be stingy on the details. Life imprisonment in Canada means that an offender will be under federal supervision, whether in prison or in the community, for the rest of his or her life. High treason and first degree murder carry a mandatory sentence of life imprisonment with a parole ineligibility period of 25 years. I do not care if you are supervised or not, if you are not in prison you are a danger to society. Life In prison should mean just that, life in prison for the remainder of your natural life. Quote Hope for the Best, Prepare for the Worst
guyser Posted May 27, 2012 Report Posted May 27, 2012 I do not care if you are supervised or not, if you are not in prison you are a danger to society. Life In prison should mean just that, life in prison for the remainder of your natural life. Well Duh ! Has anyone, anywhere said it isnt? (clue..life sentence, life in prison-different) Quote
Signals.Cpl Posted May 27, 2012 Author Report Posted May 27, 2012 Well Duh ! Has anyone, anywhere said it isnt? (clue..life sentence, life in prison-different) life sentence Noun: A punishment for a felon of imprisonment for life. A simple google search proved you wrong. Quote Hope for the Best, Prepare for the Worst
guyser Posted May 27, 2012 Report Posted May 27, 2012 (edited) Please inform me how I am wrong, and don't be stingy on the details. Ok Such as? A life sentence for murder which does not mean life?- WrongLife sentence with possibility of parole in 25 year/=life sentence.-Wrong life sentence with out parole==life sentence...-Wrong Life sentence means you die in prison-Wrong Irrelevant, there is the possibility therefore it is not a life sentence-Wrong All posted yesterday. But, you do get points for this.. So if I am given a life sentence and get parole in 25 years Im still serving a life sentence? In my apartment? Correct. Edited May 27, 2012 by guyser Quote
guyser Posted May 27, 2012 Report Posted May 27, 2012 (edited) life sentence Noun: A punishment for a felon of imprisonment for life. A simple google search proved you wrong. A simple google search...?...<sigh>....are you familiar with Dean Wermer and Bluto ? Geebus you love punishment. While a dictionary is nice, matters of legal concern should be accessed through the Criminal Code of Canada, and it clearly spells out the definition of what a life sentence is. Think of it as dictionary of legal terms. Edited May 27, 2012 by guyser Quote
bleeding heart Posted May 27, 2012 Report Posted May 27, 2012 life sentence Noun: A punishment for a felon of imprisonment for life. A simple google search proved you wrong. No...life imprisonment is a life sentence. The opposite is not necessarily the case. Quote “There is a limit to how much we can constantly say no to the political masters in Washington. All we had was Afghanistan to wave. On every other file we were offside. Eventually we came onside on Haiti, so we got another arrow in our quiver." --Bill Graham, Former Canadian Foreign Minister, 2007
Signals.Cpl Posted May 27, 2012 Author Report Posted May 27, 2012 Ok All posted yesterday. But, you do get points for this.. Correct. Ok, great now back up your claims with facts. Life in prison should mean life in prison. Life sentence should mean you spend your life in prison. Canada has no such thing as life in prison. Life sentence, you spend your life in jail or you don't, you can argue the wording all day but it does not make you right. Quote Hope for the Best, Prepare for the Worst
Signals.Cpl Posted May 27, 2012 Author Report Posted May 27, 2012 No...life imprisonment is a life sentence. The opposite is not necessarily the case. And we have neither. Quote Hope for the Best, Prepare for the Worst
dre Posted May 27, 2012 Report Posted May 27, 2012 When it's completely irrelevant to the point being made. You and Guyser know very well what is being argued for - that people who are irredeemably dangerous to the public should be locked up permanently. Doggedly insisting that a life sentence is still a life sentence even when the criminal is walking the streets is pointless. Locking people up permanently is dangerous to the public as well. For every one person sitting in jail, about 8 people have to work full time and pay taxes, and thats assuming all of what they pay went to that one persons incarceration. I dont wanna pay any more money for this. I think our system as is, is acceptable. Not perfect, but it appears to either be comparable to, or outperform our peers. Anyhow if you want to appeal to anyone besides fellow knee-jerkers youre going to make a rational case for reform. Does this type of thing happen enough to warrant massive reforms, and massive new spending? Is it increasing in frequency, or declining? Have other countries that wrote laws around this philosophy had success with it? Are their systems statistically better than ours? It sounds to me like what you want is similar to the "three strikes youre out" and mandatory minimum sentences that they have in the US, which have been a massive objective failure and bankrupted states and municipalities. Some of them are considering wholesale prisoner releases because theres just no money to pay for it. Quote I question things because I am human. And call no one my father who's no closer than a stranger
dre Posted May 27, 2012 Report Posted May 27, 2012 And we have neither. So what... The question you need to ask is do we have a good system, and does it compare well with other countries? Are crime rates receeding or increasing? Does the system accomplish its goals? Are crime rates low enough so as to not impede commerce and prosperity? From what I can tell we have a pretty good system. Quote I question things because I am human. And call no one my father who's no closer than a stranger
guyser Posted May 27, 2012 Report Posted May 27, 2012 Ai yi yi... Ok, great now back up your claims with facts. Life in prison should mean life in prison. Life sentence should mean you spend your life in prison. Canada has no such thing as life in prison. Sp now its "should mean" and such? Alright heres the facts. While a life sentence does not necessarily mean life imprisonment, it does mean that the sentence continues for the rest of the person's life. If the person is released on parole, the parole period never ends during that person's life. The offender must still follow the terms and conditions of release imposed by the parole board and can be sent back to prison if those conditions are broken. http://www.justice.gc.ca/eng/pi/pcvi-cpcv/guide/secm.html Good enough for you? Life sentence, you spend your life in jail or you don't, you can argue the wording all day but it does not make you right. It makes me absolutely right and , well .....I'll leave that right there. Quote
Topaz Posted May 27, 2012 Report Posted May 27, 2012 I think citzens may change their minds on life sentences for the fed level. In Ontario, they are closing down the Sarnia On. provincial prisons and redirecting all prisoners to Windsor On which only holds 500 but the feds now are downloading prisoners and they want 1500 relocated from Kingston, so where are they going to go? So is the feds going to give the $$$$$$ to provinces to expand or built new provincial prisons? I doubt it. Quote
Canuckistani Posted May 27, 2012 Report Posted May 27, 2012 Robert Clifford Smith. I don't know, some criminals go to prison and come out with university degrees, so I don't know what hell hole he was in. Its really nice idea to rehabilitate criminals, but what does that mean? Give them an education? Teach them a second Language? Give them all sorts of therapy? And if they reoffend what happens? Do we give them more of the same? If you make a conscience decision to endanger other people's lives you have to live with the consequences. Its easy to say we will rehabilitate criminals, and there is a time and a place for that, but at some point after the first 60 convictions I would think he lost the right to freedom, or should have at any rate. We've cut way back on rehabilitative efforts. Until we give that a really good go, we can't talk about somebody not being rehabilitatable. Some people can't be rehabilitated and should never be let out - most tho can. Some body with 69 convictions - convictions for what, shoplifting. Would you really lock them up for life? Quote
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