overthere Posted October 19, 2016 Report Share Posted October 19, 2016 Gibbons will certainly get fired, and deserves it. This team is or should be better than last year, and Gibby is part of why it took Game 161 to get to a wild card berth. And now they are losing to a team that looks a lot like Kansas City did last year: fast, adaptive, balanced and willing to risk for reward. It is moot anyway, Shapiro wants his own people and Gibby ain't one of them. They need, in no particular order: -new manager -first base/DH that is not named Justin Smoak, hits left and delivers 100+ RBIs -right fielder that hits left and does not want $150 million dollars. Carrera full time? -another starter, perhaps Biagini? -almost an entire bullpen. They cannot count on the pensioners Grilli and Benoit, and of the rest keep Osuna, maybe Tepara, maybe Cecil. Have I missed anybody who can actually pitch at the MLB level? -second base. Shairo must be wondering a lot if Travis, who has been hurt often and seriously hurt, is durable enough . Goins just cannot hit well enough despite being very good defensively. Barney might be the choice to be backing up or replacing Travis next time he goes down........... The rest looks good. I wonder if there will be many "Thank you Jose and Eddie " signs today at Rogers? I bet Shapiro offers Bautista something like 2 years at $10M per, if he makes an offer at all. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boges Posted October 19, 2016 Report Share Posted October 19, 2016 (edited) Probably give Bautista a Qualifying offer. Bats has disappeared in this ALCS (like the entire team before yesterday). Give him another year to prove he's worth more than $14 mil. Ortiz made excellent money well into his 40's. Stephen Brunt insists that Gibbons will be back. We'll see. Goins and Barney can play second. No need to trade or go into Free Agency for a middle infielder. Biangini might start next year, but they still have Liriano. Can Osuna be stretched out? This Shapiro Administration has proven to be able to pick up useful talent without selling the farm or overpaying. An outfield of Zeke, Pillar and Upton isn't the worst thing in the world. Does Saunders get re-signed? The big hole is replacing Edwin at first and/or DH. If Rogers values the popularity of this team they should match any offer Boston or any team gives him. Edited October 19, 2016 by Boges Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boges Posted October 19, 2016 Report Share Posted October 19, 2016 (edited) Comparisons between the Jays and the 2004 Boston Red Sox (The last team to come back from 3-0) - Lost in the ALCS the year before - Wildcard team - Swept the team in the ALDS - Saw a pitcher bleed on the mound - Kevin _illar (Millar/Pillar) Destiny Baby! - Edit - Or not. :-/ Who'd have thought that Estrada, of all people, would get lit up in the playoffs. Edited October 19, 2016 by Boges Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boges Posted October 20, 2016 Report Share Posted October 20, 2016 Shapiro confirmed that Gibby will be back next season. Let's try optimism here. The pitching staff is good, young and completely controllable. The team that made the ALCS was the oldest in the majors. Losing Bautista and/or Edwin may not be the worst thing if they can get younger and faster. Still, re-signing Edwin should be a priority, if not Saunders must be re-signed. The team that comprehensively beat them this playoffs (And the team that won the Jays division) was largely built by the same guy who now controls the Jays. It seems the Atkins/Shapiro regime knows what they're doing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cybercoma Posted October 20, 2016 Report Share Posted October 20, 2016 I don't follow baseball too closely but wasn't Bautista streaky last season too? When he's on he's on but he seemed to go for stretches where he wasn't producing anything. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boges Posted October 20, 2016 Report Share Posted October 20, 2016 39 minutes ago, cybercoma said: I don't follow baseball too closely but wasn't Bautista streaky last season too? When he's on he's on but he seemed to go for stretches where he wasn't producing anything. He did himself no favours this season. Granted he missed time twice due to rather freak injuries, but that happens when you're on the north side of your 30's. His fielding skills had been diminished to the point that he was used at DH far more than Edwin down the stretch. The Jays will offer him a Qualifying offer to snag a draft pick, but I'm not sure he'll get what he was expecting in Spring Training after he was moved into God-like status in Toronto for the Game 5 ALDS home run last year. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
overthere Posted October 22, 2016 Report Share Posted October 22, 2016 He was expecting 5 years at $30 million per year. LOL. Then and now. Really, given his performance this year why would they want him back at all? Qualifying offers are around $17 million , right? What if he takes it? He is too fragile, injury prone, weak in the field, weak at the plate and apparently his penchant for whinimg at every pitch is contagious. Quote It seems the Atkins/Shapiro regime knows what they're doing. Really? Success in pro sports has only two metrics metrics:improvement and winning championships. Did they do either? They did not take over a team of mutts. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boges Posted October 24, 2016 Report Share Posted October 24, 2016 (edited) On 22 October, 2016 at 6:24 PM, overthere said: Really? Success in pro sports has only two metrics metrics:improvement and winning championships. Did they do either? They did not take over a team of mutts. The inherited a team that had very little in the way of prospects from a GM who went all in to "save" his job. Yet moves were still made that improved the team's chances to make it back to the playoffs. BUT the team they left to take a promotion with Toronto is in the World Series. It's foolish to believe that the Indians that comprehensively beat Toronto didn't mostly have the fingerprints of Shapiro on it. The 2015 team's offensive production was unsustainable. And we can see that powerful offences don't really do so well in the playoffs. That's 2 years in a row the leagues best offence (Boston this year) was beaten by the eventual World Series representative. Edited October 24, 2016 by Boges Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
overthere Posted October 24, 2016 Report Share Posted October 24, 2016 2 hours ago, Boges said: The inherited a team that had very little in the way of prospects from a GM who went all in to "save" his job. Yet moves were still made that improved the team's chances to make it back to the playoffs. BUT the team they left to take a promotion with Toronto is in the World Series. It's foolish to believe that the Indians that comprehensively beat Toronto didn't mostly have the fingerprints of Shapiro on it. The 2015 team's offensive production was unsustainable. And we can see that powerful offences don't really do so well in the playoffs. That's 2 years in a row the leagues best offence (Boston this year) was beaten by the eventual World Series representative. But that is not what happened under Shapiro/Atkins. The team that rampaged through the AL East last year left as faves to win it all this year. They were widely anticipated and picked to go all the way this year. Instead, they barely made a wild card berth, and were laughed off the field in the ALCS. The Jays lost to a balanced, fast, agressive team with good pitching last year. Hey ho, -same thing this year. Their model does not work in WINNING. It appears that yoiu have finally come around to what I have been saying since about May: the structure of this team and the way the game is approached by the Jays does not work. That burden is on the management, not the players-though the Jays also need to slap some sense, and fast, into several of their selfish lads who refuse to play to win. It is two years in a row that the Jays failed-with prodigious talent both years- to have any chance of advancing from the ALCS. Balanced teams have won for the last decade. It was obvious the management did little or nothing to address the core reasons we lost last year. We lost to the same team for the same reasons. No, Shapiro, Atkins and Gibbons do not get a mulligan. This is not beer league. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boges Posted October 25, 2016 Report Share Posted October 25, 2016 2 minutes ago, overthere said: But that is not what happened under Shapiro/Atkins. The team that rampaged through the AL East last year left as faves to win it all this year. They were widely anticipated and picked to go all the way this year. Instead, they barely made a wild card berth, and were laughed off the field in the ALCS. The Jays lost to a balanced, fast, agressive team with good pitching last year. Hey ho, -same thing this year. Their model does not work in WINNING. It appears that yoiu have finally come around to what I have been saying since about May: the structure of this team and the way the game is approached by the Jays does not work. That burden is on the management, not the players-though the Jays also need to slap some sense, and fast, into several of their selfish lads who refuse to play to win. It is two years in a row that the Jays failed-with prodigious talent both years- to have any chance of advancing from the ALCS. Balanced teams have won for the last decade. It was obvious the management did little or nothing to address the core reasons we lost last year. We lost to the same team for the same reasons. No, Shapiro, Atkins and Gibbons do not get a mulligan. This is not beer league. In one off season, how much change could have been possible with the dearth of prospects AA left them with? Management improved the team's pitching but the team didn't hit at nearly the same clip. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
overthere Posted October 25, 2016 Report Share Posted October 25, 2016 15 hours ago, Boges said: In one off season, how much change could have been possible with the dearth of prospects AA left them with? Management improved the team's pitching but the team didn't hit at nearly the same clip. Good teams do not need to hit at that clip to win games. Just the Jays. As I , and now countless commentators, have pointed out. Maybe you missed every talking head on Rogers and TBS mention it? Zaun, Campbell and others avoided speaking of it until it was impossible not to, but I don't have those constraints because I am not paid by Rogers. The Jays had the best starting pitching in baseball, and could not win close or extra inning games all season. FAIL. Management FAIL. Nor have not forgotten that the Jays had two massive assets in March, the heart of their order, and that they could easily have turned one or both into pitching and/or prospects- and did nothing. So they get nothing now. They have to offer one of them not enough money now, and the other too much . The only reason to offer Bautista anything is to get a draft pick. And draft picks are far from the quality players and quality prospects avalable in March for these guys. FAIL. Management FAIL. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boges Posted October 25, 2016 Report Share Posted October 25, 2016 I guess you could say any team that doesn't win the World Series has a failure in management as they didn't build the correct team to win. They've had exactly one offseason to build this team in their "style". The style that built the current AL Pennant winner. I think Rogers could do much worse for a management team. We still don't know what they could have gotten for Bautista and Edwin. BTW they're going to offer qualifying offers to both players so they will get draft picks. It's so convenient to assume that they were going to be able to get younger, more efficient left-hand bats or reliable bullpen help for those players in April. No evidence to support that, but if you think they could have gotten it then you can't criticize the management for not trading players. Who, even though they ultimately failed in the ALCS, helped them get to the ALCS greatly. What we do know is they re-signed an All-star Free Agent pitcher and signed a 20-game winning lefty. They also have one of the top starting pitchers in the league that won't have to face hang-wringing out innings next season. They picked up a Rule 5 pitcher that was a contributor all year. They mended a bad trade they made by bringing in Benoit, they essentially got Grilli for Free. They got the San Diego Padres to pay them to take Melvin Upton. They got the Pittsburgh Pirates to give them another Starting Lefty and a great Catching Prospect for Hutch. I'd say they're doing a pretty good job considering the mess AA left them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boges Posted October 26, 2016 Report Share Posted October 26, 2016 Another theory as that the Jays were a good enough team to win to win the World Series. . . Except Andrew Miller happened. Jays didn't lose a game as decisively as the Cubs did last night. That's one Hell of a trade the Indians pulled off. The Jays certainly couldn't have paid the price to get Miller after last season's selloff for David Price and Co. Hindsight says that AA's moves were all very shortsighted. Price, Hawkins and Lowe left the team as soon as the season ended. Tulo is definitely a key piece to the team going forward but that cost them Jeff Hoffman. You could argue that Ben Revere could have been a better "piece" than Drew Storen (though no one was saying it at the time) but Revere only hit .217 last year. Hopefully Joaquin Benoit continues to be a valuable piece going into next season. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
overthere Posted October 31, 2016 Report Share Posted October 31, 2016 On 10/25/2016 at 9:33 AM, Boges said: I guess you could say any team that doesn't win the World Series has a failure in management as they didn't build the correct team to win. We still don't know what they could have gotten for Bautista and Edwin. BTW they're going to offer qualifying offers to both players so they will get draft picks. It's so convenient to assume that they were going to be able to get younger, more efficient left-hand bats or reliable bullpen help for those players in April. No evidence to support that, but if you think they could have gotten it then you can't criticize the management for not trading players. Who, even though they ultimately failed in the ALCS, helped them get to the ALCS greatly. What we do know is they re-signed an All-star Free Agent pitcher and signed a 20-game winning lefty. They also have one of the top starting pitchers in the league that won't have to face hang-wringing out innings next season. They picked up a Rule 5 pitcher that was a contributor all year. They mended a bad trade they made by bringing in Benoit, they essentially got Grilli for Free. They got the San Diego Padres to pay them to take Melvin Upton. They got the Pittsburgh Pirates to give them another Starting Lefty and a great Catching Prospect for Hutch. I'd say they're doing a pretty good job considering the mess AA left them. No, I'm singling out the Jays as being serious contenders in 2015 who failed to do anythign to advance further in 2016. Of course every team does not have a chance to win a world series. Neither did the Jays, given the failure of management. LOL about what the Jays might have gotten for two of the very best power players in the game, circa spring 2016..... Two draft picks is a f***ing joke. I do not get why you again apologize for losing 2 great asets for absolutely no return. Must be a Leafs thing. Why wouldn't they get a big return for EE and Bats...... when they both had big value? Instead.... nada. Dick. Zero. AA left them with a full stadium and a contending team that needed some tweaking. Now they have a team with some really big holes, and they lost two players that could have gone far in filling those holes. Of course. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
overthere Posted October 31, 2016 Report Share Posted October 31, 2016 Joaquin Benoit? LOL . If we go into next season depending on geezer recovery projects like Benoit and Grilli.... it will be another indictment of those idiots in management. Kansas City and Cleveland both have balanced teams with great bullpens. Winners. Giants were like that too, The Jays are not. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boges Posted November 1, 2016 Report Share Posted November 1, 2016 On 31 October, 2016 at 6:15 AM, overthere said: LOL about what the Jays might have gotten for two of the very best power players in the game, circa spring 2016..... Two draft picks is a f***ing joke. I do not get why you again apologize for losing 2 great asets for absolutely no return. Must be a Leafs thing. Why wouldn't they get a big return for EE and Bats...... when they both had big value? Instead.... nada. Dick. Zero Yeah, I don't believe any team, other than perhaps the ones that you'd end up having to beat in October anyway, were going to give up anything of worth for sluggers with expiring contracts. And if there was an offer, it certainly wasn't going to help them make the playoffs this season. It's all hypothetical because we'll never know. You just seem to want to assume that there was an Andrew Miller calibre trade available in March. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
overthere Posted November 3, 2016 Report Share Posted November 3, 2016 On 11/1/2016 at 6:05 AM, Boges said: Yeah, I don't believe any team, other than perhaps the ones that you'd end up having to beat in October anyway, were going to give up anything of worth for sluggers with expiring contracts. And if there was an offer, it certainly wasn't going to help them make the playoffs this season. It's all hypothetical because we'll never know. You just seem to want to assume that there was an Andrew Miller calibre trade available in March. It is pretty amusing to see observers blow off the value of Encarnacion and Bautista in March 2016 as being nothing. They were two of the best power players in the game then, and one has improved on that status now. Who would want to drop consistent 100 RBI, 30+ RBI guys into the heart of any lineup? Right, they had no value at all. Hilarious. What is not the least bit hypothetical is that two very valuable, well regarded assets who both indicated 'pay up or bye-bye' in March 2016 are going to get absolutely no return to a team that needs to get better to move to the top rank of teams. It may well be the best opportunity the team has had to win for 20+ years- pissed away. What a great end to the season last night in Cleveland! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boges Posted November 3, 2016 Report Share Posted November 3, 2016 12 minutes ago, overthere said: It is pretty amusing to see observers blow off the value of Encarnacion and Bautista in March 2016 as being nothing. They were two of the best power players in the game then, and one has improved on that status now. Who would want to drop consistent 100 RBI, 30+ RBI guys into the heart of any lineup? Right, they had no value at all. Hilarious. Well, what was the appropriate value? We'll never know. Shapiro/Atkins aren't going to ever tell. It's just easy to assume they were offered pieces that would have made the team better, with the subtraction of them of course. The pitching core is still solid. We'll see what moved can be made. Seems Cleveland will be even better next year with 2 of their best pitchers and best outfielders injured. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boges Posted November 4, 2016 Report Share Posted November 4, 2016 BTW. How about that genius coaching from Maddon. Using Chapman in a blowout game, where you know you'll need to win again the next day. Taking Hendricks out for John Lester in the middle of an inning (also having to change catchers). Then taking Lester out mid-inning for Chapman after he's settled down. BUT!!! The dumbest thing was the 2 strike squeeze bunt attempt with one out, a runner on 3rd in the bottom on the 9th. You need a sacfly to win!!! Mangers lose game more than win games. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
overthere Posted November 4, 2016 Report Share Posted November 4, 2016 We know with absolute certainty that both of the best power players in the game are worth a lot more than sweet f all. And the other certainty is that two valuable pieces that could have been used to improve the team are worth sweet f all now. The starting pictching is OK. The bullpen remains inadequate, obviously, and is their most pressing need. Cleveland went a long, long way by playing the kind of aggressive, unselfish, winning baseball I dream of seeing in Toronto. So many unselfish, slashing, hit-to-opposite field ABs by so many players. What a contrast to the Jays! I hope Gibbons was taking notes, though it is very unlikely. Even better, they did it on a small payroll. It would seem the Jays -with their huge market clout and bigtime attendance can easily afford to buy what they need, since given the example fo EE and Bats they don't have the wits to trade for it. But I won't hold my breath. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rue Posted November 8, 2016 Report Share Posted November 8, 2016 (edited) OverT I don't think you can put the cement shoes on Gibby. Unfair. He's not a bad manager. He didn't cost them. Too many right hand aint his doing. Lack of depth at the relief positions aint his doing.. Let's get real. The Jays were a fluke two years ago. Their bats got hot all at once. Then we all thought that would last this year but the reality then sunk in. Gibby is not their problem. Yah sure They need to a back up catcher, 2 corner outfielders and two relief pitchers and maybe one more starter. That's not a tall order to fix. They'll get them. Pompey, Carrarra, Smoaks, Goins, maybe even Pillar are gonna go. Bautista is full of himself and his shoulder is permanently injured. Bye Joey. Encarceron, good guy but no you don't give him 5 years with his body. He has a back waiting to go out. The Sox will easily give him 130 mil for 5 and he'll have some good years then fade into injuries. There's some young outfielders available. Maybe even my fave Pillar has to go if they bring back a left handed hitting center fielder but they'll be fine. Lariano is gonna be fine with his boy behind the plate as opposed to what we had this year with the knuckleball that never fluttered.. The Jays were lucky none of their starters got injured. No way Happ will repeat the season he had but he doesn't have to. If Stro picks it up a bit which he will Happ doesn't have to be at 20 he can be at 14 and they still are fine. Hopefully Sanchez does not get the sophmore jinx like Stro did and Estrada's back stays calm.. With that line up they gotta strike now. Two relief pitchers one a lefty. That's no.1.That' what they need and relax they will get them. The Jays can do that ok. Hold on to your kahunas son they will deliver on that. As for the outfielders me thinks they can deliver on that too. I think the Sox and Yanks in our div. have great young guys that will make it tough so we have like the next 1-2 year window to push it. The Yanks are looking damn good next year and the year after. Sox too. Tampa and Baltimore are close. We have a tuff div. We have parity. The Cubbies are young and could repeat and Cleveland with no injuries looks good and Texas is 1-2 players from greatness and Kansas City will come back a bit so watch them next year. But I think the Jays will be fine with Gibby. He handled his primma donnas damn good. Look at the Cubbies, Indians, Yanks, that's the sign of the times-young, fast excellent fielders who spray hit to all fields so they only have to rely on 1 or 2 big boy batters. LA you can't write off. They are gonna waste some money again but I think the Mets take Bautista and Encarceron goes to the Sox. No big deal man,. The world didn't end when you know who went to the Sox. Everyone said, what Happ to replace him no way man. But it worked out. -remember les Expos!- Youpi Edited November 8, 2016 by Rue Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
overthere Posted November 9, 2016 Report Share Posted November 9, 2016 EE reportedly wants $125 million over five years. Boston will pay that in a heartbeat, and more. Will the Jays? His price in March 2016 was likely $20M per year for three or maybe four years. Man, that is some quality management. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boges Posted November 11, 2016 Report Share Posted November 11, 2016 (edited) Promising addition in the Free Agent market. Kendrys Morales has been signed for 3 years $33 million. http://m.mlb.com/player/434778/kendrys-morales Much cheaper for comparable, if not better, numbers than Jose Bautista. Looks like Joey Bats is done as Blue Jay. They could still snag Edwin as a First baseman but if they can snag an outfielder, they have filled their major holes. Edited November 11, 2016 by Boges Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
overthere Posted November 17, 2016 Report Share Posted November 17, 2016 Filled their major holes? I've been away for a while, did many trades get made? Morales is strictly a DH, he has only played about 20 games total in the field the last 2 years for a reason. Last couple years, the Jays have had the luxury of having a great hitter like EE at the plate, and he was decent in the field. . That option is gone. The jays still need: an everyday first basemen(since the Jays inexplicably signed the very unreliable hitting Smoak for 2+ years), a backup catcher(and Martin faded badly in the crunch), a whole lot of bullpenpitchers, somebody to replace Michael Saunders, another somebody to replace Bautista and maybe a starting second baseman unless Travis finds a way to play more than a few weeks at a time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boges Posted November 18, 2016 Report Share Posted November 18, 2016 You think another middle infielder is a priority? Morales is a switch hitter so it helps them with their right-handed dependent lineup. The fact he's a little over a third of the price of what, I imagine, Edwin is asking, they have a lot of money freed up to find other, younger, option. I tend to think you don't devote a lot of effort in Free agency to the Bullpen. They offered Cecil a 3 year contract. A back-up catcher is a must. The big priority is an lefty outfielder. World Series winner Dexter Fowler is on the market. Josh Reddick got signed by the Astros today. What I'm hearing is that teams and players are waiting to see what payroll the luxury tax will kick in, when the new CBA is signed. Teams like Boston may be more likely to throw the kitchen sink at Edwin if they can spend more without being taxed. I do think they have the luxury of being able to deal a pitcher or two. Stroman for a decent outfielder is a deal I'd do. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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