How fair is the student protest?

jacee · May 21, 2012

In a word. No.

They aren't interested in getting involved in Quebec's political battles and Quebec has made it very clear it doesn't want the ROC interfering in its business. They don't much care what Quebec does as long as they don't have to pay for it.

I just meant that any people in any province who think their tuition is too high should try to do something about it.

It would be a more appropriate course of action than Quebec-bashing.

Edited May 21, 2012 by jacee

TimG · May 21, 2012

It's one thing to disagree, of course; but Wente has no argument, and presumably only included her thesis-busting non sequiter in some last-minute, ill-conceived attrempt to show "balance."

ROTFL - Arguments? Their weren't any to rebut.

Lets analyze:

Governments are completely saturated by neo-liberal ideology, disconnected from the public interest.

Nothing but unsubstantiated opinion that is a borderline conspiracy theory.

These protests – like others around the world – are about showing there’s a limit to how far the state can go to protect capitalist interests at the expense of the people.

Again. Complete nonsense. The protesting students are not "the people". They are tiny minority of the students that get little sympathy from the public. Trying to compare their temper tantrums to other protest movements is an insult.

Wente included the comments because they support her point that these students are disconnected from reality. If it was supposed to 'present the other side' so people could laugh at its aburdity.

Edited May 21, 2012 by TimG

Argus · May 21, 2012

No your Romper Room level analysis doesnt answer any questions at all about anything other than your failure to grasp the bigger picture.

The... er... bigger picture? The big pictures consists of government which is elected by the people. That's called democracy. And it's clear the Quebec government has the support of the vast majority of the electorate. So where does your belief that these students, in committing acts of violence and intimidation, are somehow doing something noble?

The big picture? Really? You think these cheese heads have some sort of collective wisdom the rest of the province and country don't possess? Really?! LOL

These are nothing but spoiled brats who believe the world owes them a living, outraged that anyone would refuse them their slightest desire. The proper place for them is prison, or perhaps a work farm somewhere. After a year or two of picking vegetables they might get a new viewpoint on life. Perhaps they'll develop better philosophies.

Argus · May 21, 2012

It is not like these students will get jobs when they get out anyways. How fair is the society we live in really?

Who said life was fair?

Argus · May 21, 2012

Many of them feel the same way about people who espouse fanatical right wing extremist views...like calling them anarchists or terrorists when all they are doing is protesting.

Molotov cocktails, intimidation and bullying of students, smoke bombs in subways, rocks and bricks and fires?

No, they're not just protesting. And yes, there's a strong anarchist element present.

Argus · May 21, 2012

It's interesting to watch the same people who decry the "leftwing, driveby, msm" suddenly assume it is the perfect authority for every important fact.

So long as it aligns with preconceived notions and the "correct" political stance......

Are you suggesting the nightly violence is all the work of one or two guys who just keep getting arrested over and over and over again? :rolleyes:

Argus · May 21, 2012

They're facing a 75% increase.

Postsecondary education is a necessity.

Tuition should be free.

If tuition was free every moron would go to college. Enough morons go to college as it is.

If you want to go to college, you should have to work at it. I know I did.

And postsecondary education is not a necessity. There are lots of jobs which pay well which require no university or college education. From the looks of this lot, digging ditches is more their speed anyway.

Argus · May 21, 2012

"Some"?

Who hires anyone without a secondary diploma?

Lots of people. I used to hire lots of them. Didn't want people with post-secondary education. I knew they were only interested in using the jobs as a stepping stone. I wanted people who would stick around. Good office jobs, with the government, too. I did hire one university grad once. Well, he came in as a temp and I liked him, so I eventually hired him on. He had two degrees, and was pretty happy to take a clerk job.

Then there are all those blue collar jobs, from police, bus drivers and firefighters, to the trades. Most of them pay better than your average university grad will ever earn too.

Argus · May 21, 2012

I just meant that any people in any province who think their tuition is too high should try to do something about it.

It would be a more appropriate course of action than Quebec-bashing.

If the price is too high then don't go to university. Is that too complicated for you?

What you and these others are demanding is that I pay more to subsidize other people's post-secondary education. And my answer is -- no.

Let them work and pay for their own damned education like countless others have done before them. If they don't want to, then I guess they don't really want that education so badly.

Battletoads · May 21, 2012

Nothing like listening baby boomers whine about the "entitlement mindset".

jacee · May 21, 2012

Lots of people. I used to hire lots of them. Didn't want people with post-secondary education. I knew they were only interested in using the jobs as a stepping stone. I wanted people who would stick around. Good office jobs, with the government, too. I did hire one university grad once. Well, he came in as a temp and I liked him, so I eventually hired him on. He had two degrees, and was pretty happy to take a clerk job.

Then there are all those blue collar jobs, from police, bus drivers and firefighters, to the trades. Most of them pay better than your average university grad will ever earn too.

"Used to" ...

Most trades and jobs you mentioned require some postsecondary now.

http://www.statcan.gc.ca/pub/75-001-x/2008110/article/10710-eng.htm#a3

Tuition should be free for all postsecondary students, not just some whose parents can afford it.

TimG · May 21, 2012

Tuition should be free for all postsecondary students, not just some whose parents can afford it.

Absolutely not. There need to be bursaries and loans to ensure people without means can go to university but a price signal is absolutely essential. Without a price signal people have no incentive to complete their studies quickly or choose majors with better chances of paying job after the degree.

It is worth noting that countries like Germany with free education end up rationing access (just like Canadian healthcare) to control costs. This means it can take up to 7 years to get a 4 year degree because of space limits on mandatory courses.

bleeding heart · May 21, 2012

ROTFL - Arguments? Their weren't any to rebut.

You say, directly before attempting to do exactly that.

Lets analyze:
Nothing but unsubstantiated opinion that is a borderline conspiracy theory.

That's not an "analysis," it's your opinion. And it's not a "borderline conspiracy theory"; it's an institutional critique.

I should think after all your remarks about scientists, you would reflexively understand this, even if you disagreed with the conclusions.

Wente included the comments because they support her point that these students are disconnected from reality. If it was supposed to 'present the other side' so people could laugh at its aburdity.

This doesn't come across, not through any use of rhetorical argument, not by emphasis or de-emphasis, nothing. It just sits there blandly, and in fact refuting much of her own previous argument.

And I see you have deigned not to address Wente's playing fast and loose with sources and facts...might that not be slightly problematic?

Edited May 21, 2012 by bleeding heart

bleeding heart · May 21, 2012

Are you suggesting the nightly violence is all the work of one or two guys who just keep getting arrested over and over and over again?

No; I'm noting with genuine interest that the people who most often whine about the "left wing media" (which it isn't, but that's another topic) are the ones who are by far the most credulous to news media generally.

jacee · May 21, 2012

Absolutely not. There need to be bursaries and loans to ensure people without means can go to university but a price signal is absolutely essential. Without a price signal people have no incentive to complete their studies quickly or choose majors with better chances of paying job after the degree.

Ah yes ... the 'Papa state' wants to have a stick to control the decisions of students. ... <_<

It is ironic that some who would likely disdain the study of human behaviour (psychology) as a major, nonetheless lay claim to expertise in human motivation and behaviour.

However, the Papa state mentality hasn't progressed beyond 1950's cold war Skinnerian behaviourist notions, having no knowledge of the primacy of human cognition.

Keep in mind, we are talking about responsible students who have done well enough in secondary school to qualify for postsecondary, and are limited only by the financial resources of their families or entirely reliant on themselves.

Again, all of these elitist and patronizing arguments were once made about free tuition for secondary school, from which those of limited means were once excluded. Most of the men who fought WWII had only a Grade 8 education or less as secondary school cost money (and still does in some countries). Free public secondary education only appeared in the baby boom generation.Sixty years later, it's time now to extend that to postsecondary.

Education is one of the strongest contributors to economic performance. Barriers to education are barriers to economic progress.

In sum, Tim, your psychological arguments are as full of holes as your economic ones.

Argus · May 21, 2012

Keep in mind, we are talking about responsible students who have done well enough in secondary school to qualify for postsecondary, and are limited only by the financial resources of their families or entirely reliant on themselves.

Nonsense. The standards for many courses are pretty low. Any idiot can get into university. And plenty of idiots do. Some of the stupidest, shallowest people I've ever had the misfortune to become acquainted with have university degrees.

And keep in mind back that the great majority of post secondary students want no part of this 'strike' and only want to continue studying. Keep in mind also that the great majority of university students come from parents with university degrees -- ie, these are not poor and downtrodden kids, but the kids of the elites.

It doesn't sound, then, like you really know much about what you're trying to talk about.

jacee · May 21, 2012

Nonsense. The standards for many courses are pretty low. Any idiot can get into university. And plenty of idiots do. Some of the stupidest, shallowest people I've ever had the misfortune to become acquainted with have university degrees.

Putting aside your personal perceptions, it is still the case that our overall economic progress is strongly reliant on the education levels of Canadians.

And keep in mind back that the great majority of post secondary students want no part of this 'strike' and only want to continue studying. Keep in mind also that the great majority of university students come from parents with university degrees

It's true that students whose parents can afford to pay for their postsecondary education are not as motivated to participate in protests, because the tuition hike doesn't affect them personally.

Nonetheless, "the great majority" voted against the government 'offer' and supported continuing the strike. Even those who voted against the strike have demanded that the government negotiate instead of imposing harsh laws.

That's why the size of the protests has grown immensely since the anti-protest law was passed on Friday. ALL students agree that negotiation is the solution, not criminalization of protest.

-- ie, these are not poor and downtrodden kids, but the kids of the elites.

The kids of the "elites" would be those referred to above - not as motivated to strike because money isn't an issue for them.

The ones striking are precisely the kids of parents who can't afford to pay for their education, or who are entirely without family support at all, along with others who support equal access for their peers.

Edited May 21, 2012 by jacee

Signals.Cpl · May 21, 2012

The kids of the "elites" would be those referred to above - not as motivated to strike because money isn't an issue for them.

The ones striking are precisely the kids of parents who can't afford to pay for their education, or who are entirely without family support at all, along with others who support equal access for their peers.

Source? It would be easy saying that the poor are protesting because it fits your propaganda but is it really the poor students protesting?

Wild Bill · May 21, 2012

Nonsense. The standards for many courses are pretty low. Any idiot can get into university. And plenty of idiots do. Some of the stupidest, shallowest people I've ever had the misfortune to become acquainted with have university degrees.

Angus, there are two trick questions I have sprung on many a university grad that have baffled them, to the great amusement of others in the group.

I'll share them with you:

"Did your mother have any kids that lived?"

and this gem from my Nova Scotia relations:

"Was it you or your brudder got killed in the war?"

"Must've been me! My brudder didn't go to the war!"

There's a few great silly math games that come from classic Abbott and Costello routines that are also sure-fire confusers for many a university grad.

I think part of why so many of us like to pick on them is not at all envy, as our victims so like to childishly retaliate, but rather that it's so easy because it's not a result of education but of brain maturity. Adolescents don't like to recognize this fact but their brain is not totally developed while they are of university age. Research has proven that while they can absorb immense amounts of data very quickly it tends to be accepted without question. It is only in later life that they mature enough to be better at critical analysis - BS filtering, in other words.

This factor in our brain development is why it is so vital that teachers be trained to keep biases out of their teaching. Human beings of such age will swallow almost everything as true and factual. When so many teachers today are leftwing in their philosophies it is not surprising that younger adults tend to the left, not becoming more central or rightwing until they get into their 30's.

Anyone who doesn't believe my premise is welcome to take a nose count of any random group of people 18-26 years old that they meet. Better yet, if you are student at Queens try handing in a poli-sci or even economics paper that is not biased to the left and see what kind of mark you receive.

Wilber · May 21, 2012

It is human nature to put more value on something that requires a persons own investment than on something that is just handed to them. Any parent knows that.

The ones striking are precisely the kids of parents who can't afford to pay for their education, or who are entirely without family support at all, along with others who support equal access for their peers.

My guess is more likely the opposite. Most of those who are paying their own way can't afford to piss away a year marching in the streets bitching about "the man".

jacee · May 21, 2012

It is human nature to put more value on something that requires a persons own investment than on something that is just handed to them. Any parent knows that.

My guess is more likely the opposite. Most of those who are paying their own way can't afford to piss away a year marching in the streets bitching about "the man".

My guess is your guess is wrong.

jacee · May 21, 2012

Wild Bill said ...
I think part of why so many of us like to pick on them is not at all envy, as our victims so like to childishly retaliate, but rather that it's so easy ...

Bullying is such fun eh Bill?

Keep in mind that they are rolling their eyes at your ignorance as they are walking away.

What a fine model you are for youth. <_<

Edited May 21, 2012 by jacee

Wilber · May 21, 2012

My guess is your guess is wrong.

Well, if my guess is wrong and they can afford to piss away a year marching in the streets, they aren't so hard up after all.

Signals.Cpl · May 21, 2012

My guess is your guess is wrong.

I noticed you can't prove your assumption...

TimG · May 21, 2012

Ah yes ... the 'Papa state' wants to have a stick to control the decisions of students. ...

Your complete ignorance is jaw dropping. Behavior modulated by price signals is called the market economy. Our entire economy is built on this foundation and it works quite well. It is the same argument used by the various enviros demanding carbon taxes. It is simply absurd to suggest that they have no place in education.