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The Wind Power Problem


Guest Peeves

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:lol: that's quite the site!

one can usually begin to test integrity/veracity of claims on just how well a site identifies itself and it's membership/makeup. This gem of a site, "wind-power-problems.org", gives ya nuthin, diddly squat, hey Peeves! It clearly meets the measure of your established credibility and scrutiny!

in any case, a quick scan shows we've touched upon most of these blowhard nonsensical claims through assorted other MLW related threads. Peeves you should check out the assortment of "debunking wind power myth" cites that are out there... you know, save yourself further/more/continued embarrassment, hey?

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I remain of the belief that storage of the energy created by wind-power is possible, and would eliminate the main complaints about windpower, which are primarily related to the up-and-down nature of wind.

Some obvious possibilities include charging batteries, generating hydrogen, pumping a liquid uphill, compressing gasses, spinning a flywheel... These may not be technologically or economically feasible at an industrial scale right now, but one should never say never.

-k

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I remain of the belief that storage of the energy created by wind-power is possible, and would eliminate the main complaints about windpower, which are primarily related to the up-and-down nature of wind.

Some obvious possibilities include charging batteries, generating hydrogen, pumping a liquid uphill, compressing gasses, spinning a flywheel... These may not be technologically or economically feasible at an industrial scale right now, but one should never say never.

-k

The only one of those that is reasonably efficient AND can economically store the amounts of energy being discussed is pumping water uphill. Where a hill that is easily adaptable to become a water reservoir is conveniently available, this is a great idea and works really well, and it is in fact commonly done. Elsewhere, it's unfortunately not applicable.

Flywheels and batteries are basically completely impractical on the scale required. Generating hydrogen is horribly inefficient, and the efficiency of getting energy back out of hydrogen is low as well... hydrogen energy storage makes you lose the large majority of the energy you started out with. Compressing a gas is viable where a large pressurizable natural feature such as an underground cavern system that can easily be made pressure-tight exists, but such features are not particularly common.

I'm pretty sure that before any of these storage technologies (besides pumping water uphill) are able to economically store the energy required, we'll have the ability to economically build lossless superconducting transmission lines, allowing us to decouple the power generation sites from the energy storage sites. Then you will be able to effectively store energy in a giant mountain water reservoir 5000 km away from a wind farm without losing any energy in the transmission line. Then and very likely not until then will the energy storage issues associated with wind power be fully resolved.

Of course, by then, we'll very likely also have functional fusion energy.

Nonetheless, wind power can have certain uses in the meantime, and can effectively provide a few % of the power needed in any given region where wind is available. But it cannot be used to provide the majority of the electrical power needs for a country.

Edited by Bonam
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I remain of the belief that storage of the energy created by wind-power is possible, and would eliminate the main complaints about windpower, which are primarily related to the up-and-down nature of wind.

Some obvious possibilities include charging batteries, generating hydrogen, pumping a liquid uphill, compressing gasses, spinning a flywheel... These may not be technologically or economically feasible at an industrial scale right now, but one should never say never.

Kimmy, I agree.

I first saw electrical generating windmills in Crete over 10 years ago. I have seen many since, and recall standing under one in northern Germany. IMV, they do not disturb the landscape, kill birds, create weird electromagnetic waves any more than hydro wires, and likely less.

With these windmills, I wonder about three questions: I wonder about the initial cost. I wonder about the maintenance cost. And finally I wonder, as you, how to store this energy.

We don't know the long term maintenance cost. In Germany, many windmills don't move despite high winds and other mills turning. I suspect that the mill has been stopped because of a mechanical defect.

Edited by August1991
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Guest Peeves

:lol: that's quite the site!

one can usually begin to test integrity/veracity of claims on just how well a site identifies itself and it's membership/makeup. This gem of a site, "wind-power-problems.org", gives ya nuthin, diddly squat, hey Peeves! It clearly meets the measure of your established credibility and scrutiny!

in any case, a quick scan shows we've touched upon most of these blowhard nonsensical claims through assorted other MLW related threads. Peeves you should check out the assortment of "debunking wind power myth" cites that are out there... you know, save yourself further/more/continued embarrassment, hey?

Oh my, another unneeded critical opinion of a subject and reference.

Insert emoticon for derisive pfffffffffffffffft! :P

Hot damn I missed the communique elevating you to the master of the most high board blivic.

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Oh my, another unneeded critical opinion of a subject and reference.

Insert emoticon for derisive pfffffffffffffffft! :P

Hot damn I missed the communique elevating you to the master of the most high board blivic.

unneeded critical opinion? Really? Clearly you don't take well to challenge, hey?

clearly you have no qualms in linking to anything that supports your predilection, your agenda. You have no reservations in blindly linking to and/or quoting unsubstantiated claims. Your linked reference web-site lacks even the basic presence to identify itself... to identify who/what is behind the web-site and its unsubstantiated claims. You've simply shown anyone can link to anything on the interweebs. Job well done MLW member 'Peeves'.

of course, as is readily showing through in just a couple of threads, you're simply content to link/cut/paste... without even attempting to offer your own interpretation/commentary.

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The only one of those that is reasonably efficient AND can economically store the amounts of energy being discussed is pumping water uphill. Where a hill that is easily adaptable to become a water reservoir is conveniently available, this is a great idea and works really well, and it is in fact commonly done. Elsewhere, it's unfortunately not applicable.

Flywheels and batteries are basically completely impractical on the scale required. Generating hydrogen is horribly inefficient, and the efficiency of getting energy back out of hydrogen is low as well... hydrogen energy storage makes you lose the large majority of the energy you started out with. Compressing a gas is viable where a large pressurizable natural feature such as an underground cavern system that can easily be made pressure-tight exists, but such features are not particularly common.

I'm pretty sure that before any of these storage technologies (besides pumping water uphill) are able to economically store the energy required, we'll have the ability to economically build lossless superconducting transmission lines, allowing us to decouple the power generation sites from the energy storage sites. Then you will be able to effectively store energy in a giant mountain water reservoir 5000 km away from a wind farm without losing any energy in the transmission line. Then and very likely not until then will the energy storage issues associated with wind power be fully resolved.

Of course, by then, we'll very likely also have functional fusion energy.

Nonetheless, wind power can have certain uses in the meantime, and can effectively provide a few % of the power needed in any given region where wind is available. But it cannot be used to provide the majority of the electrical power needs for a country.

A lot of places have large hyrdo electric faciilities that can be used for pumped storage. Or you can just let those facitilies build up head when its windy. Theres massive potential here.

The storage technologies will emerge if the market demands them... the idea of grid storage is relatively young in terms of capital investment and the cost is coming down.

And the cost of wind energy is also coming down while the cost of coal and nuclear and hydro is going up, and the cost of new plants is rising fast as well.

But it cannot be used to provide the majority of the electrical power needs for a country.

So what? There has never been a silver bullet. Different technologies make sense in different areas. Some places have lots of hydro, some have large coal deposits, some are very sunny, some are very windy.

On another note, I wonder if maybe grid storage is the wrong approach. You theoretically get good efficiency due to scale of production... but I wonder if it might make more sense to store power at the point of consumption in some kind of appliance that the consumer is reponsible for buying. Something that's the size of a dryer and probably looks about the same. The problem is based on costs today it would cost about 10 thousand dollars for unit that would run your home for between 1 and 2 days.

However... if these appliances became the norm, then we could build them in FoxConns chinese suicide factory by the 10's of millions and likely get the unit costs down to a few hundred bux. And we get away from the staggering costs of building central plants, and effectively privatize much of the grid and dump the responsibility and cost on the end user, and shrink both the governments role and the role of large utilities.

Its elegant from an architectural standpoint as well. Its decentralized, and the importance of keeping the power in the grid perfectly clean and constant would be reduced. More redundancy, more failover, less blackouts. Basically each home becomes a cell in a gigantic battery that can be drawn down either by the homes occupant or even by someone living hundreds of miles away.

Anyhow this is more of a political problem than it is an engineering problem. If you want cheap reliable energy you can probably get it out of any of these technologies, you just need to fund them. I read that a trillion dollars invested solar PV would bring the price down 10 fold, at which point most of the worlds lowrise buildings can provide their own dirt cheap energy. A similar investment in storage would bring prices down exponentially as well. The probably is it wont become a real political priority until we face an economy crushing energy crisis, which is pretty much guaranteed at some point but still a little ways off.

Edited by dre
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really, there is no point discussing any power source that does not provide a solution focused on electricity supplies that are dead reliable, available 24/7 in quantities that are certain.

Our lives are based on all of that, period.

If you have for example 10% of your total power consumption requirement originating from sources like wind or solar, without economic storage of that power, all it means is that you have to overbuild the generating capacity by at least 10%. You still need 100% build redundancy on the unreliable source.

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really, there is no point discussing any power source that does not provide a solution focused on electricity supplies that are dead reliable, available 24/7 in quantities that are certain.

Our lives are based on all of that, period.

If you have for example 10% of your total power consumption requirement originating from sources like wind or solar, without economic storage of that power, all it means is that you have to overbuild the generating capacity by at least 10%. You still need 100% build redundancy on the unreliable source.

no

Yes, we've danced around the topic of 'smart-grids' in the past... I'm always more than willing to prop-up another IEA roadmap towards the ultimate transition. For now, conventional grid adjustments in terms of spinning/non-spinning reserves is an example of a quite viable management approach to help mitigate the so-called 'intermittent' output of wind/solar.

coupled with, for example, as available/appropriate: wind forecasting, subhourly scheduling and strategic placement of large wind farms realizing large balancing areas (or utility control areas) to smooth variability over larger geographic areas.

(re: IEEE Power & Energy - Wind Power Myths Debunked)

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Guest Peeves

Where are all the gains to be had? All I ever seem to read are negatives.

If we were sold a bill of goods on the F35 (and we were), the wind turbine sell is as bad is it not?

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The article... The Not-So-Green Mountains

just how many times will you flog this? Last time you purposely called me out with it... clearly, it's simply a false narrative you're playing out... it's nothing more than a trumped up wedge-issue for you. In any case, in kind, I'll simply play back the same posts I wrote the last time you flogged this:

as I interpret jbg's wedge dynamics at play, we have an ~5k of mountain ridgeline that will ultimately host 21 turbines. I also understand that the approval decision was only granted when two MOU's were struck between the recognized governmental stewards of environmental protection within Vermont, the state's Agency of Natural Resources, and the applying power company. As I understand, the MOU's cover strict adherence to environmental restoration, inclusive of a trust sufficient to cover costs associated with ultimate decommissioning (projected 30 year timeline). Now, ultimately, you and I may not like the resultant visual impact of the turbines on the horizon... but... in that comparative 'vogue' balance you beaked off about, how does that visual stack up against the outright devastation of whole western U.S. and Canadian forests as a result of the global warming impacts on pine-beetle devastation, direct and through increased wildfire propensity? Care to strike up a wedge play on that comparative level? Do you have a vogue scale you'd like to bring forward to measure degrees of fad, hey?
I gave you an answer... a good answer... wait... a great answer! I highlighted your continued baiting approach and I emphasized your (failed) wedge play. It's unfortunate your wedge play didn't have the foresight to actually check out the decision and realize the MOU's struck to ensure restoration after construction as well as restoration after decommissioning... as brokered between the state of Vermont's Agency of Natural Resources and the applying power company... you know, the Vermont state department mandated as the steward protecting the states environment. Perhaps, while you're shedding crocodile tears over the ~5km of Vermont mountain ridgeline, you might save a few for the massive devastation to U.S. and Canadian forests as attributed to climate change/pine beetle... a recent figure I read had just B.C. forest impact at over 160,000 km2. Perhaps you'd like to sink further by having your initial quote played back to you, hey? Or maybe you'd like to double-down and deny mountain-beetle impacts are as a direct result of global warming... sure you can, right?

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Winter would seem to be a peak time of demand for power. Is this what you can rely on?

ah yes... another exact post you played earlier... are you that closeted/stifled for, "new material"? In any case, again, my same reply:

what? ... apparently, you have nothing to say about all the world-wide successful wind farm deployments - go figure. Do you scour the interweeb for these type of nuggets, hey jbg?

in any case, project/location specific... engineering solution required - no biggee... many existing northerly climate locations exist, without problems. Imagine... technology advances in the face of challenges:

GE 2.5xl Wind Turbine Now Prepared for Extreme Cold WeatherE Energy’s most advanced wind turbine, the 2.5xl, is now available with a Cold Weather Extreme (CWE) package. The addition of the CWE package ensures that the 2.5xl wind turbine can operate in temperatures as low as -30°C, and in survival mode without operation, at temperatures as low as -40°C.

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The article, excerpted below (link) was written by Steve E. Wright, an aquatic biologist and a former commissioner of the Vermont Fish and Wildlife Department. It seems that the incentives for "green" power have trumped not only common sense, but other environmental values. This fanatacism about an unproven problem, anthropogenic global warming ("AGW") is cause an awful lot of damage. (...)

Yeah, sure. Peeves' awesome website had a picture of such "desecration" in progress-- a pad the size of a baseball diamond cleared out. Ooooh. Not much different from the pads for cellular transmission towers that dot mountaintops all over the country. If I get out my telescope I can see two such cell sites from my balcony. A tiny amount of land. Far less land than is eaten up just creating right-of-ways for power transmission line towers.

Holy fuck. What a freaking lack of perspective. I assume these tactics are intended to scare the piss out of urbanites who have never been out of the city and have no idea how electricity gets from far-away generating stations to their homes. Have you ever actually seen what high voltage transmission lines passing through a forest look like? Have you people ever actually seen conventional energy being extracted from the ground? Oil pumps and rigs? Coal? Natural gas?

Hey, if you want to see what mountains being desecrated really looks like, why don't you google up "mountaintop removal mining".

-k

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Guest Manny

I'm pretty sure that before any of these storage technologies (besides pumping water uphill) are able to economically store the energy required, we'll have the ability to economically build lossless superconducting transmission lines, allowing us to decouple the power generation sites from the energy storage sites. Then you will be able to effectively store energy in a giant mountain water reservoir 5000 km away from a wind farm without losing any energy in the transmission line. Then and very likely not until then will the energy storage issues associated with wind power be fully resolved.

Then off to space, the final frontier. :ph34r:

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no

coupled with, for example, as available/appropriate: wind forecasting, subhourly scheduling and strategic placement of large wind farms realizing large balancing areas (or utility control areas) to smooth variability over larger geographic areas.

(re: IEEE Power & Energy - Wind Power Myths Debunked)

Yes. If the wind does not blow or the sun does not shine the supply is curtailed. The need to meet peak demand does not change because the supply declines so yes, you have to overbuild redundant generation capacity. Duh.

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Yes. If the wind does not blow or the sun does not shine the supply is curtailed. The need to meet peak demand does not change because the supply declines so yes, you have to overbuild redundant generation capacity. Duh.

read... try it... you might like it! From the same link provided earlier:

Q: Doesn’t Wind Power Need Backup Generation?

A: In a power system, it is necessary to maintain a continuous balance between production and consumption. System operators deploy controllable generation to follow the change in total demand, not the variation from a single generator or customer load. When wind is added to the system, the variability in the net load becomes the operating target for the system operator. It is not necessary and, indeed, it would be quite costly for grid operators to follow the variation in generation from a single generating plant or customer load.
“Backup” generating plants dedicated to wind plants—or to any other generation plant or load for that matter—are not required, and would actually be a poor and unnecessarily costly use of power-generation resources.

as stated previously, for example:

...conventional grid adjustments in terms of spinning/non-spinning reserves is an example of a quite viable management approach to help mitigate the so-called 'intermittent' output of wind/solar.

coupled with, for example, as available/appropriate: wind forecasting, subhourly scheduling and strategic placement of large wind farms realizing large balancing areas (or utility control areas) to smooth variability over larger geographic areas.

International Energy Agency (IEA) - Wind 2010 Annual Report

The existing targets for wind power anticipate quite a high penetration in many countries. It is technically possible to integrate very large amounts of wind capacity in power systems, with the limits arising from how much can be integrated at socially and economically acceptable costs. Valuable experience on wind integration has been gained from several countries: Denmark (20% penetration as yearly electrical energy), Spain and Portugal (14% to 15%), Ireland (11%), and Germany (7%, with North Germany exceeding 30%). These countries have shown that considerable amounts of wind power can be integrated into existing systems without investing in extra reserves. This is possible if the system operator has information on the forecasting of wind power and the on-line production levels, as well as ways to control the wind input in critical situations.
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System operators deploy controllable generation to follow the change in total demand,
Patently false. It is not about system operation to meet averages, it is about meeting peak demand to supply industry and consumers no matter what. You simply cannot have variable supply like wind or solar as part of the equation to meet peak demand, since their contribution cannot be guaranteed. You also cannot simply ramp up conventional supply generators whenever there is a wobble in supply from wind and sun, it takes days or hours to bring those online and producing reliabl;e power. That is all a sideline to the point : variabe power supplies require that coventional supplies be available.

Yeah, you can conserve energy blah blah blah but it does not change the supply equation at all, it changes the amount of supply . Same thing for transmission and distribution networks, you must build to peak demand plus a wee bit more, not averages.

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Patently false. It is not about system operation to meet averages, it is about meeting peak demand to supply industry and consumers no matter what. You simply cannot have variable supply like wind or solar as part of the equation to meet peak demand, since their contribution cannot be guaranteed. You also cannot simply ramp up conventional supply generators whenever there is a wobble in supply from wind and sun, it takes days or hours to bring those online and producing reliabl;e power. That is all a sideline to the point : variabe power supplies require that coventional supplies be available.

Yeah, you can conserve energy blah blah blah but it does not change the supply equation at all, it changes the amount of supply . Same thing for transmission and distribution networks, you must build to peak demand plus a wee bit more, not averages.

Thats only true if the grid has no storage capability. The more you have the more you can smooth over flucuations in availability.

None of this stuff is impossible or even technologically very hard.

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Thats only true if the grid has no storage capability. The more you have the more you can smooth over flucuations in availability.

None of this stuff is impossible or even technologically very hard.

This is where you provide evidence of current storage capacity for generation of wind and solar. The only storage capacity in power grids is hydro, the rest is potential capacity in the form of offline generators. And none of it can be started instantly to respond to demand. But it still has to be built and maintained. Power generation capacity has always ahd a requirement for some redundancy in reliable generation, wind/solar make very little difference to that equation.

You are confusing operation of the grid with the necessity of redundancy, which is expensive but critical. Dead reliable electrical supply is the cornerstone of every industrialized society. Of course you can incoprorate wind/solar into daily operations, but you absolutely have to have reliable sources to meet 100%+ of demand. Wind/solar displaces virtually none of that essential element.

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